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[newb246]

In a 3 player Dominion game, the turn order is Player A, followed by Player B, followed by Player C

Player A plays KC possession so is entitled to 3 possession turns.  On the first possession turn, player A forces player B to play KC possession.  After that turn ends, but before Player B gets his normal turn, 5 additional possession turns need to be played:

-2 more turns in which A possesses B
-3 turns in which B possesses C

What is the order of these 5 turns?  I think the answer is that A gets his two possession turns and only then does B get his 3 possession turns, but wasn't sure so wanted to get confirmation.

[ftl]

Deleted my wrong guess so it doesn't confuse people.

[newb246]

Ok, well, I had two reasons for my conclusion:

1.  In this thread:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1136.0
biopower seems to imply that my understanding is correct.  But, since it's not really the topic of that thread and isn't so clear, I wanted to confirm

2.  Since A's possession turns were created first, I thought it would be logical that they should be played first. 

That was my logic.  But, i am new here.  So, I could easily be wrong. 

[LastFootnote]

Ok, well, I had two reasons for my conclusion:

1.  In this thread:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1136.0
biopower seems to imply that my understanding is correct.  But, since it's not really the topic of that thread and isn't so clear, I wanted to confirm

2.  Since A's possession turns were created first, I thought it would be logical that they should be played first. 

That was my logic.  But, i am new here.  So, I could easily be wrong.

If I remember correctly, Donald has ruled that your interpretation is correct.

[Donald X.]

In a 3 player Dominion game, the turn order is Player A, followed by Player B, followed by Player C

Player A plays KC possession so is entitled to 3 possession turns.  On the first possession turn, player A forces player B to play KC possession.  After that turn ends, but before Player B gets his normal turn, 5 additional possession turns need to be played:

-2 more turns in which A possesses B
-3 turns in which B possesses C

What is the order of these 5 turns?  I think the answer is that A gets his two possession turns and only then does B get his 3 possession turns, but wasn't sure so wanted to get confirmation.

A possessing B goes first. It's not because those turns were set up first; it's because the general rule is, that when multiple things are trying to happen to different players at the same time, we go in turn order.

[Taco Lobster]

Who will play C's possessed turns - A (through possession of B) or B?  Or, will it go like this:

B possessing A plays C's first and second possessed turns
B's possession of A ends (B played three turns as A under his KC)
A plays C's third possessed turn
A plays his normal turn?

Possession and King's Court is trippy.

[Thisisnotasmile]

A possesses B two more times and then B plays his normal turn and then B possesses C three times and then C plays his normal turn, provided there are no more plays of Possession.

[Taco Lobster]

A possesses B two more times and then B plays his normal turn and then B possesses C three times and then C plays his normal turn, provided there are no more plays of Possession.

Wow, that's weird, but I guess it makes sense given that B's two possessed turns are really a part of A's turn, and B's possession turns don't start until after B's real turn ends.

[AJD]

A possesses B two more times and then B plays his normal turn and then B possesses C three times and then C plays his normal turn, provided there are no more plays of Possession.

Wait, are you sure? I think C's possessed turns take precedence over B's normal turn, if it was during B's possessed turn that Possession got played.

[Thisisnotasmile]

A possesses B two more times and then B plays his normal turn and then B possesses C three times and then C plays his normal turn, provided there are no more plays of Possession.

Wait, are you sure? I think C's possessed turns take precedence over B's normal turn, if it was during B's possessed turn that Possession got played.

I'm about 90% confident. If Possession is played during B's possessed turn, at the end of the turn it is still "B's turn" (I believe there is a ruling that if effects occur between turns and the order matters, it is considered to be the turn of the person who most recently took a turn), so going in turn order to resolve effects we have B's normal turn and C's possessed turn waiting to happen, so B's is first.

[GendoIkari]

A possesses B two more times and then B plays his normal turn and then B possesses C three times and then C plays his normal turn, provided there are no more plays of Possession.

Wait, are you sure? I think C's possessed turns take precedence over B's normal turn, if it was during B's possessed turn that Possession got played.

I'm about 90% confident. If Possession is played during B's possessed turn, at the end of the turn it is still "B's turn" (I believe there is a ruling that if effects occur between turns and the order matters, it is considered to be the turn of the person who most recently took a turn), so going in turn order to resolve effects we have B's normal turn and C's possessed turn waiting to happen, so B's is first.

This is wrong. Possession says "The player to your left takes an extra turn after this one." (Emphasis mine). That means as soon as the currenet turn ends. It will not wait for player B's regular turn to end.

[GendoIkari]

A possesses B two more times and then B plays his normal turn and then B possesses C three times and then C plays his normal turn, provided there are no more plays of Possession.

 I guess it makes sense given that B's two possessed turns are really a part of A's turn,

No, they are not part of A's turn in any way. Possession causes player B to take an extra turn. Player A's turn is over and done with. It is now player B's turn (his extra turn). He gets his extra turn before his regular turn, but both turns are player B's turns.

[Ingix]

A possesses B two more times and then B plays his normal turn and then B possesses C three times and then C plays his normal turn, provided there are no more plays of Possession.

Wait, are you sure? I think C's possessed turns take precedence over B's normal turn, if it was during B's possessed turn that Possession got played.

I'm about 90% confident. If Possession is played during B's possessed turn, at the end of the turn it is still "B's turn" (I believe there is a ruling that if effects occur between turns and the order matters, it is considered to be the turn of the person who most recently took a turn), so going in turn order to resolve effects we have B's normal turn and C's possessed turn waiting to happen, so B's is first.

I don't buy this argument for the simple reason that it breaks down in the normal case where player A plays one Possession on player B. If your argument (that normal turns are part of the decision what happens next) was correct, now two turns for player B are looming ahead, his nomal one and his possessed one. He could then choose to take the normal one first, possessed one second, which we know is incorrect. To me that means normal turns are not taken into account when additional turns are waiting.

[Dominionaer]

... He could then choose to take the normal one first, possessed one second, which we know is incorrect. To me that means normal turns are not taken into account when additional turns are waiting.

simple rule:
First all turns where one is possessed
Than regular turn(s) of that player

Any possessions played during possessed or regular turns happen to the next player, repeating above simple rule.

[Schneau]

According to Isotropic, the possessed turns are played out before any normal turns happen. Thus, if every player played a Possession while being possessed, you could play around and around Possessed turns without anyone getting a normal turn. Here's a log for proof:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201206/05/game-20120605-095035-3a9d763d.html

[Ingix]

... He could then choose to take the normal one first, possessed one second, which we know is incorrect. To me that means normal turns are not taken into account when additional turns are waiting.

simple rule:
First all turns where one is possessed
Than regular turn(s) of that player

I don't think such a rule exists. It's much too specific to be a general rule (it doesn't take into account other extra turn cards, for example). This gives rise to another question:

Play order is A, then B. Player A plays two Possessions in his turn. During the first possessed turn of player B, he plays Outpost. When that turn is over, according to my understanding, two extra turn effects are waiting to happen (the other Possession turn and the Outpost turn). Since it was player B's most recent turn, and both extra turns are turns for player B, B decides the order. And since we are between turns, it is actually player B who makes that decision, as he is no longer possessed by player A. Is that correct?

[Dominionaer]

Player A plays two Possessions in his turn. During the first possessed turn of player B, he plays Outpost.

That results in the second posessed turn played with 3 cards!

Edit: Wrong why deleted!

[Ingix]

Player A plays two Possessions in his turn. During the first possessed turn of player B, he plays Outpost.

That results in the second posessed turn played with 3 cards!

Do you think this is the way it *must* happen, or do you think (as I do), that player B (and really he, not somebody else who 'possesses' him) makes the decision between this scenario and a scenario where a normal outpost turn follows for player B, under his own control?

[Dominionaer]

It must happen this way. I think of it this way: The Outpost does not know about the pending Possession and the Possession does not care about any durations (but resolving them as possible). So at end of first Possession turn player B draw only 3 cards. Then the second Possession get fullfilled with that hand. Then follows the regular turn of player B. No extra turn from Outpost after 2 (or more) Possessions - wether controlled by A or B.

Possession - Outpost - regular is possible

This can't cause you to take more than two consecutive turns.

Possession - regular - Outpost is not possible
Possession 1 (with Outpost) - Possession 2 - Outpost (with 5!) - regular is not possible
Possession 1 - Possession 2 (with Outpost) - Outpost - regular is not possible

Possession 1 - Outpost (controlled by B) - Possession 2 - regular is not possible, because player A's cards has to be fullfilled before the control go over to B. Player B can't decide anything while possessed and is possessed until all possessions are resolved.

[Ingix]

This can't cause you to take more than two consecutive turns.

Possession - regular - Outpost is not possible
Possession 1 (with Outpost) - Possession 2 - Outpost (with 5!) - regular is not possible
Possession 1 - Possession 2 (with Outpost) - Outpost - regular is not possible

Agreed. The reason is the above given Outpost clause.

Possession 1 - Outpost (controlled by B) - Possession 2 - regular is not possible, because player A's cards has to be fullfilled before the control go over to B. Player B can't decide anything while possessed and is possessed until all possessions are resolved.

That's where we disagree. I simply see no reason for any preference of player A's card (Possession 2) versus player B's card (Outpost). What is important according to the rules is that they both affect player B, so he makes the decision. And as we are between turns, he is no longer possessed.

[AJD]

I think the official ruling from Donald in the past has been that between turns, we still consider the possessor to be the one making the decision.

[Dominionaer]

I would have guessed there is no "between-turns-state". But that still fits with me:

As long as there are Possessions pending, i consider it A's turn (although played by B).

[Ingix]

I would have guessed there is no "between-turns-state". But that still fits with me:

From the FAQ: http://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Complete_and_All-Encompassing_Dominion_FAQ (emphasis mine):

19.4 Timing of several concurrent abilities

When an ability or several abilities happen at the same time to different players, the abilities are resolved in turn order starting with the current player. Between turns, the player who last had a turn is considered to be the current player. When several abilities happen at the same time to the same player, he chooses the order of the abilities.

The bold part I think was added to deal exactly with this kind of situation, as extra turns seem to be the only case where decisions need to be made between turns. The FAQ gives links to the source of these rulings, and when I looked at them in detail, it turns out that my question was already posed (by schmi) and answered (by Jeff Wolfe, later in the thread confirmed by Donald X) there http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/515547/possessionoutpost-combo/page/2:

When multiple Possessions are played, which is the right order

Possession Turn #1
 Outpost played

Outpost Turn

Possession Turn #2

Normal Turn


or


Possession Turn #1
 Outpost played

Possession Turn #2

Outpost Turn

Normal Turn

Ooh, good question. Here's how I interpret it.

The Outpost effect of only drawing 3 cards in the Cleanup phase happens in the current turn. Then, two things try to happen simultaneously: an Outpost turn and a Possession turn. When two things happen simultaneously, the current player decides. Since the current turn is over, the Possessing player no longer has control of the LHO's actions. So the LHO gets to decide amongst the following options:
1. An Outpost turn with 3 cards, followed by a Possession turn with 5 cards, followed by the regular turn.
2. A Possession turn with 3 cards, followed by the regular turn. Outpost can't cause you to take more than 2 turns in a row, so the Outpost turn would be skipped since LHO has already taken 2 (Possessed) turns.

[Dominionaer]

Now i get confused: All comments and references in this thread so far lead in 2 opposite directions. I boil it down to this question: What is the superior "ability" of possession? Continuing player A's control or giving player B an extra turn? Is it more like Tribut (A benefits from B's cards) or more like Golem?

On an abstract level: Is the flow of game by players or by turns? I think by former, because we switch from one player to next after whatever number of turns a player have. Ok this could be also an argument for the latter but I empasize the control of hands, not whose hands it is.

If by players, then any pending Possessions of one player should be resolved, before the next player can play her/his turns (regular and further extra in whatever order). Similar to "+ 1 buy" a Possession could be seen as "+ 1 turn" (although played trough next player), so any Possession during possessed or "own" turns would cumulate and resolved after each players turns with her/his deck and before giving control to next player.
That would make

A possesses B two more times and then B plays his normal turn and then B possesses C three times and then C plays his normal turn, provided there are no more plays of Possession.

the correct answer to OP's question. For

Player A plays two Possessions in his turn. During the first possessed turn of player B, he plays Outpost.

Possession 2 - regular B and no extra from Outpost would be the right order.

If by turns, then player B can decide wether the second Possession turn or the Outpost turn goes first. Furthermore a chain of Possession played in a possessed turn leads to resolving these first. After how many of these (perhaps spiced up with some Outposts?) does one loose track (pun intended) whose regular or extra turn is next? With

Possession says "The player to your left takes an extra turn after this one." (Emphasis mine). That means as soon as the currenet turn ends. It will not wait for player B's regular turn to end.

OP's question could be resolved to B possess C 3 times - A possess B 2 times - B's regular - C's regular provided there are no more plays of Possession. But other solutions are also possible. Who may decide? Whose Possession(s) is "primus inter pares"?

So long Donald does not say otherwise I go possessed turns first then unpossessed turns! And if there are more Possessions, they get resolved if the players other turns are done.

[werothegreat]

Here's my interpretation:

A plays 2 Possessions.
During the 1st Possessed turn, A makes B play Outpost.
The 2nd Possessed turn is an Outpost turn, controlled by A.
B takes a normal turn.

Where I'm confused is when A plays ONE Possession, and makes B play Outpost.
B takes an Outpost turn immediately after the Possessed turn - that much is made clear in the FAQ.

But does this means that player B is screwed with a 3 card hand for his turn, and A has his next turn immediately after?  Or does B take a normal 5 card turn after the Outpost turn caused by A Possessing B and playing his Outpost?

[Dominionaer]

B take a normal 5 card turn after the Outpost turn

[ftl]

Here's my interpretation:

A plays 2 Possessions.
During the 1st Possessed turn, A makes B play Outpost.
The 2nd Possessed turn is an Outpost turn, controlled by A.
B takes a normal turn.

Where I'm confused is when A plays ONE Possession, and makes B play Outpost.
B takes an Outpost turn immediately after the Possessed turn - that much is made clear in the FAQ.

But does this means that player B is screwed with a 3 card hand for his turn, and A has his next turn immediately after?  Or does B take a normal 5 card turn after the Outpost turn caused by A Possessing B and playing his Outpost?

This case is I think resolvable by just following the text on the cards exactly. B plays outpost; he takes an extra turn, with 3 cards, as specified by Outpost. Then he gets to take his normal turn, because he hasn't had it yet. All of those are controlled by B, because Possession only takes control of one turn.


I'd still love to hear an explanation and reasoning for what happens if A plays multiple possessions, and then forces B to play Outpost on the first Possessed turn.

[AJD]

I'd still love to hear an explanation and reasoning for what happens if A plays multiple possessions, and then forces B to play Outpost on the first Possessed turn.

Okay, let's reason this out.

Turn A:
—Alex plays Possession. This stipulates that turn P1 should follow turn A.
—Alex plays another Possession. This stipulates that turn P2 should follow turn A.
End of Turn A. Now two things are trying to happen at the same time: turn P1 and P2. Alex chooses P1. Therefore turn P2 will follow turn P1.

Turn P1:
—Becky plays Outpost. This causes her to draw 3 cards in cleanup, and stipulates that turn O1 should follow turn P1.
End of turn P1. Now two things are trying to happen at the same time: turn P2 and O1. Alex gets to choose, because Becky is being possessed.

...If Alex chooses O1, Becky will play her own turn with a three-card hand, and turn P2 (with Alex possessing Becky) will follow, with a five-card hand unless an Outpost is played on turn O1. Turn B will follow turn P2.
...If Alex chooses P2, Alex will play Becky's turn with a three-card hand, and turn O1 never happens because it would be a third consecutive turn. Turn B will follow turn P2.

Does that sound right?

[werothegreat]

Does that sound right?

No.  P2 becomes O1.  Becky's Outpost turn is played by Alex.

[AJD]

Does that sound right?

No.  P2 becomes O1.  Becky's Outpost turn is played by Alex.

Why?

[Ingix]

Does that sound right?

No.  P2 becomes O1.  Becky's Outpost turn is played by Alex.

I think there might be a confusion of terminology here. Outpost does 2 things: It cause you to draw only 3 cards in this turn's cleanup phase, and it causes you to get an extra turn. In the simple case that there is only one Outpost involved and nothing else, that means your next turn after you played Outpost will be the turn created by Outpost and you have only the three cards you drew this turn on this next turn. From a player's perspective in this case, the turn generated by Outpost is special only because his initial hand size is smaller than usual.

So I think different players might mean slightly different things when they say "Outpost turn". For some, it means the turn generated by Outpost (A). For others, it is the turn they start with 3 cards in hand (B). As I explained above, in the simple case A and B are the same. In our case, involving Possessions, they are not.

When werothegreat says "Becky's Outpost turn is played by Alex.", the meaning of "Outpost turn" matches (B). OF course, if you use (A), this is wrong. This could be the interpretation of AJD.

+++

The only place I disagree with AJD is his explanation is who chooses between P2 and O1 coming next. I say Becky chooses, as the choice is made between turns. Other than that, I agree.

[AJD]

The only place I disagree with AJD is his explanation is who chooses between P2 and O1 coming next. I say Becky chooses, as the choice is made between turns. Other than that, I agree.

Becky is still being possessed at that point though.

[Wolphmaniac]

One thing that all of these scenarios have in common is that nobody wins.

[werothegreat]

Werothegreat Throne Rooms a Possession.

Werothegreat, controlling VillageIdiot's turn, makes him play an Outpost.

From what is on the cards, and what is in the FAQ, and my own internal logic, Werothegreat's 2nd Possession should control the Outpost turn.

Anyone who still asserts that the Outpost turn is a separate thingy that Werothegreat's 2nd Possession CAN'T control, please produce a canonical (e.g. from the mouth of Donald X himself) explanation why.

Edit: I think I get it now.

 

Both cards say "extra turn."  So i guess this turns into a blue dog thing.

[UltimaPenguin]

The only place I disagree with AJD is his explanation is who chooses between P2 and O1 coming next. I say Becky chooses, as the choice is made between turns. Other than that, I agree.

Becky is still being possessed at that point though.

I disagree. The decision for which extra turn goes next happens between turns. Nobody is possessed between turns. Donald ruled in this post (http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/540344/multiple-possessions-from-multiple-players-stack-o/page/1) that the "active" player between turns is whoever took the most recent turn. The most recent turn was made by Becky (whose choices were controlled by Alex, but it was still Becky's turn). So Becky is the "active" player, but it's nobody's turn, so nobody is being possessed while this decision is made. So I'd say Becky chooses.

[Dominionaer]

... 2nd Possession should control the Outpost turn.

At first instinct I would have agreed to this. But after a round of thinking i go with UltimaPenguin (which is opposite to my former opinion.) B (VillageIdiot) has to choose between

second possessed turn with 3 card hand and no extra turn from Outpost
or
outpost turn (controlled by B) followed by second possessed turn

Until Donald states otherwise!

[AJD]

The only place I disagree with AJD is his explanation is who chooses between P2 and O1 coming next. I say Becky chooses, as the choice is made between turns. Other than that, I agree.

Becky is still being possessed at that point though.

I disagree. The decision for which extra turn goes next happens between turns. Nobody is possessed between turns. Donald ruled in this post (http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/540344/multiple-possessions-from-multiple-players-stack-o/page/1) that the "active" player between turns is whoever took the most recent turn. The most recent turn was made by Becky (whose choices were controlled by Alex, but it was still Becky's turn). So Becky is the "active" player, but it's nobody's turn, so nobody is being possessed while this decision is made. So I'd say Becky chooses.

I think that in one of those BGG threads somewhere Donald ruled that Alex's control over Becky's decisions extends into that between-turn space as well, though I can't find it right now.

[Jeebus]

I see that my FAQ was referenced earlier in this thread, but I'm kinda sad it didn't lead to the correct resolution of the problem. If you guys look in section 21. Clarifications and errata under "Possession", you will find an item that says the following:

• Clarification: If Outpost or Possession is played on a Possession turn, and another turn is in queue to happen (from a card played before this turn), follow 19.4 Timing of several concurrent abilities. As stated there, in between turns the player who last had a turn is considered to be the current player, but if that player was Possessed on that turn, the Possessor still makes decisions for that player between turns (such as whether to play an Outpost turn or Possession turn first).

http://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Complete_and_All-Encompassing_Dominion_FAQ

There is also a source, which is probably the ruling AJD was looking for.