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Author Topic: Dominion: Roles  (Read 998 times)

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ClouduHieh

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Dominion: Roles
« on: February 13, 2019, 02:53:35 pm »
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I致e recently had an idea (Roles) what if each player replaced a starting estate or necropolis with a role. The role would be an action. Each role would have their own unique action. You could either choose your role or get one at random. Depending on the game some of them could be very useful. If it was random it would still be fair. And since a role was one card, it wouldn稚 give you a ginormous advantage.
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segura

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Re: Dominion: Roles
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2019, 03:21:27 pm »
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what if each player replaced a starting estate or necropolis with a role. The role would be an action.
Sounds to me like a Shelter-Action under another name which begs the question, why a new name/type for something that already exists in the desired form.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Dominion: Roles
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2019, 03:27:22 pm »
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                        Cleric

                 +3 Actions
     Trash a card from your hand.

$0*Role-Action

                 Highwayman

Each other player reveals the top 2 cards
Of their deck. Trashes a revealed treasure,
If copper is trashed they gain a curse. You
gain the treasures trashed by this.

$0* Role-Action-Attack

              Merchant

            +1 Buy
            + $2

$0*Role-Action

               Farmer

            +2 Actions
Discard any number of cards, then
Draw that many.

$0*Role-Action

                Guard

            +1 Card
            +1 Action
   覧覧覧覧覧覧覧
When another player plays an attack card,
You may first reveal this from your hand,
To be uneffected by it.

$0*Role-Action-Reaction

            Armorer

Choose one: +2 Cards, or
Gain a card costing up to 3$

$0*Role-Action


Because a role is of someone you start as. Maybe you were a farmer before you became a monarch. Ect.         
Now If I get more interest in this thread I will definitely post the cards for each of these on here.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 03:39:26 pm by ClouduHieh »
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segura

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Re: Dominion: Roles
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2019, 03:37:38 pm »
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Cleric already exists in the form of an Heirloom and is called Goat.

Merchant or Armorer totally change the opening and are far too good for starting deck cards.

Farmer is Cellar. You can literally exhange a starting Estate for a Cellar in every deck if you want to in your games. Not that this would be any good as it messes with the opening but you can simply do that when you next time play Dominion until you realize why starting cards should not be sifters (or draw in general).

Guard is the only idea with some merit here. Of course it is not directly workable as it also messes with the opening but the card idea is nonetheless OK as it is something that is overpowered for a Kingdom card but fine for a non-Supply card.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Dominion: Roles
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2019, 03:40:26 pm »
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Okay I致e tweaked them.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Roles
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2019, 06:07:24 pm »
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I have pondered things like this several times in the past. One problem is that, if each player has another role from the start, you cannot possibly balance them. For instance, a role that allows you to trash cards may be immensely useful in some games, and nearly useless in others. The same goes for most other bonuses, be it attacks, gaining, +Actions, +Buys, you name it.

The only way I see to make such a thing work is by making the aquisition of roles part of the game. Have players bid for roles, or award them for certain achievements. Bidding is what I used for my Power Grid submission in the weekly design contest thread. Achievements are what I used in a certain post for the later "base card" challenge of the same thread. Both are variants of Mountain Pass and Tournament, respectively. You could also make roles nonexclusive to keep the first to reach the condition from locking the others out, and well, that behaves very similar to Projects on a conceptual level.

The idea certainly isn't without merit, but I'm going out on a limb here that Shelter-like starting cards will not be a good way to do it, for the sheer impossibility to balance them.

Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Roles
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2019, 06:55:27 pm »
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Specifics aside, the idea has merit, as it's already featured heavily in games like the DC Deckbuilder, Mystic Vale, etc.

There is of course a "take it or leave it" type of thing; many Dominion fans like the fact that all players start on a relatively level playing field; many players can't even stand the typical 4/3 vs 5/2 unevenness.

You don't have to be one of them, it's okay to like something that many players may not.

Note: written before Asper posted.
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Fragasnap

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Re: Dominion: Roles
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2019, 07:05:05 pm »
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If it was random it would still be fair. And since a role was one card, it wouldn稚 give you a ginormous advantage.
This is not true at all.
Trashing and +Buys are incredibly variable effects per Kingdom (moreso than most), and having a singular source that isn't available to any other player would absolutely break the game. There are Kingdoms with no trashing where a Cleric player will practically automatically win. There are engine boards with no +Buy where Merchant or Armorer will wildly turn the tide in a players' favor.

Guard is a fine example of an inoffensive singleton card. It would have an affect on boards with strong Attacks, but is unlikely to immediately decide the game (though even its effect is quite variable by Kingdom and player count: 2-player games make Reactions fairly weak generally, while 4-player games will make Guard a powerhouse).

But, surely being able to leverage a unique card is the core appeal to them, so making them such inoffensive effects that they don't matter much would defeat the purpose in my opinion, while making them powerful cards renders the game into whatever mechanism is used to acquire them in the first place--be it a draft, a VP-bid, or fully random.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Dominion: Roles
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2019, 08:22:23 pm »
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For a while I've had the idea of letting players secretly choose a starting card after looking at the board. The biggest problem is that if there's only one of each, the first player to pick gets a massive advantage, whereas if there are multiple copies of each, all the players will just pick the same one on certain boards, which isn't very interesting.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Dominion: Roles
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2019, 11:21:15 pm »
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What if after looking what the kingdom cards, if players pick the same one they have to bid debt tokens for it. Then the other players pick from the ones that are still available. Like in a game with no cards that trash the first 3 players picked the cleric. Player 4 picked the highwayman. The first 3 players now bid debt tokens highest gets the cleric player 1 and 2 bid 5 player 3 bid 4. So player 3 must choose another one, the armorer. Once again player 1 and 2 bid debt tokens player 1 bid 7 player 2 bid 10. Player 2 gets cleric but starts the game off with ten debt tokens. Player one chooses the guard. Player 2 spends the first 3 turns paying off debt. Uses the cleric on his fifth turn to trash the curse he got. Now he starts trashing his coppers and curses but he痴 3 turns behind.

Here痴 the question even though he痴 potentially got the advantage is being 3 turns behind, still mean he痴 going to win this game by a landslide?
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Roles
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2019, 04:55:21 am »
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Sure, bidding would be a legitimate way to distribute special cards at the beginning.

segura

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Re: Dominion: Roles
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2019, 11:56:27 am »
+1

Bidding negative VPS is probably a better way to implement a role auction, Debt changes the opening quite a bit.

I'd focus on cantrips like Guard with mild effects. First, because you can simply add them to the game instead of substituting an Estate or Copper (as already mentioned, if you substitute a starting card with a cantrip you will always shuffle at T2 which is dubious, with official cards such a thing can only happen with Doctor or some Hexes/Boons). Second, because being a cantrip automatically forces you to make the effects weak.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Roles
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2019, 12:30:07 pm »
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An interesting way to implement a similar which is a bit different, perhaps, is to give everyone this at the start of the game, replacing one of their starting cards.

[Hidden Destiny] -- $0?
Exchange this for a card in the Kingdom. If you do, take debt equal to that card's cost.

Type Shelter?
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segura

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Re: Dominion: Roles
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2019, 07:32:34 am »
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An interesting way to implement a similar which is a bit different, perhaps, is to give everyone this at the start of the game, replacing one of their starting cards.

[Hidden Destiny] -- $0?
Exchange this for a card in the Kingdom. If you do, take debt equal to that card's cost.

Type Shelter?
I think this is a neat way to emulate a (potentially) symmetrical start.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Roles
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2019, 12:58:52 pm »
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An interesting way to implement a similar which is a bit different, perhaps, is to give everyone this at the start of the game, replacing one of their starting cards.

[Hidden Destiny] -- $0?
Exchange this for a card in the Kingdom. If you do, take debt equal to that card's cost.

Type Shelter?

I think it has to be reworded slightly. For once, without a pile of its own, it can't be exchanged. Second, there are cards with Potion or debt costs. Of course, debt cards are always available (except Fortune), but I would still word around it. The negative VP also seem a good idea. It could come down to something like this:

Quote
Destiny, Action, 0$
+1 Action
Trash this. If you do, pay any number of VP, then gain a kingdom card costing up to 1$ per VP you paid to your hand.
---
Setup: Each player takes 8VP and adds a copy of this to their starting deck.

Of course this loses the appeal of asymmetrical roles.

ClouduHieh

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Re: Dominion: Roles
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2019, 11:11:46 pm »
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I could make the roles each cost debt tokens that you gain as well at the beginning of the game. And then only when more there痴 more than one player who wants the same one is there a bidding war of debt tokens.

I could also make an additional rule for the roles. Like for cleric for instance it normally would cost you 4 debt tokens, however if there is no cards in the supply that let you trash the starting cost is 8 debt tokens for instance.

Guard could normally cost 3 debt tokens, if there are no attack cards in the the supply then the starting cost is 1 debt token.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Dominion: Roles
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2019, 11:24:46 pm »
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For highwayman

Cost 5 debt tokens, if their is attack cards in the supply then the starting cost is 3 debt tokens.

For merchant

Cost 1 debt token, if there is no + Buys in the supply then the starting cost is 3 debt tokens.

For farmer

Cost 3 debt tokens, if there are no +2 actions or more in the supply then the starting cost is 5 debt tokens.

And just an oddball one.
For armorer

Cost 4 debt tokens and replace one starting copper with a silver, if there痴 a bidding war and the debt tokens exceed 12 replace one starting copper with a gold.

So what do guys think about these rules especially my last oddball rule, armorer isn稚 the most handy role but it could be interesting.

And I might even have enough room on the card for the cost and bidding rules.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 11:26:04 pm by ClouduHieh »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Dominion: Roles
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2019, 11:56:08 pm »
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Here痴 my oddball attempt and kinda an alligator green color.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Dominion: Roles
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2019, 01:27:09 am »
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Would you guys like to see the rest?

I致e changed the action of the roles on some of them. And the setup rules are different on each Role.
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Thanar

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Re: Dominion: Roles
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2019, 11:22:55 am »
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I'm interested in seeing the rest (especially if they're printable cards).
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Dominion: Roles
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2019, 01:04:58 am »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Dominion: Roles
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2019, 01:09:29 am »
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Chappy7

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Re: Dominion: Roles
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2019, 01:24:08 am »
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I'm sure some people find this idea fun, but I have never been a fan of games with variable player powers.  It's harder to remember whats going on and it is impossible to balance perfectly.  To me it seems more like a theme gimmick.  I love the precision of Dominion, and to me this doesn't have a place in Dominion.

Of course, these are fan cards and I hope you and many others love them.  Just saying my thoughts
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Dominion: Roles
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2019, 11:05:00 am »
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Well that痴 true. This can definitely make dominion different. But I sopose I知 trying to appease a friend he thought dominion was quite boring the first few turns we池e mostly just buying cards. And wouldn稚 play just because he found that games like Yugi oh and Pok駑on and even digimon were a lot funner. Every turn had action cards to play so to speak. I also enjoy just playing all the unique cards, sometimes I値l get carried away just playing all the unique cards, and not start buying provinces when I should. I知 the kinda guy who wouldn稚 mind if every victory card was removed from the game and just continued to build up my deck until all the action cards were gone. I don稚 play dominion to win, I play it for fun. If that means dominion added a little more fun with roles then I壇 be all for it. And the thing about it is in dominion some players will quit playing a round when they see a certain card in the game that they hate. I played online with someone who said he absolutely hated ghost ship and would quit if it popped up in the game and true to his word a few rounds later it did pop up.

So I realize dominion roles isn稚 for most avid dominion players, but like I said roles don稚 need to be in every game, it痴 just available if someone wants to play with them. Isn稚 there a thread that痴 all about really bad card ideas, if they are so bad why is it one of the longest threads. Obviously everyone loves replying about bad cards.

So I guess roles can be put into that category.

If roles add a super power to dominion what would be your super power? Feel free to add your own super power (Role) to this thread.

If you could have a super power in dominion what would it be? Don稚 be afraid to be creative.

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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Dominion: Roles
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2019, 04:06:16 pm »
+1

So I realize dominion roles isn稚 for most avid dominion players, but like I said roles don稚 need to be in every game, it痴 just available if someone wants to play with them. Isn稚 there a thread that痴 all about really bad card ideas, if they are so bad why is it one of the longest threads. Obviously everyone loves replying about bad cards.

So I guess roles can be put into that category.

I don't think anybody was saying these were bad. As far as I could tell, Chappy7 was simply saying that they weren't for him.
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