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Author Topic: Artifact Origin cards as a card type  (Read 1530 times)

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qmech

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2019, 06:22:42 pm »
+2

I was this thread old when I found out Gathering was a type.
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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2019, 04:28:33 pm »
+1

What the type Reserve "means" is when you play it, you put it on your Tavern mat.

But this by itself seems as arbitrary as a thing to give a type to as any other thing that cards do when you play them. Cards with "trash this" don't have a type; Cards with "+1 Action" don't have a type; etc.
Knowing that, except for Coppers, only brown cards can be on your Tavern mat is incredibly useful to prevent mess-ups, just like knowing that those orange cards might stay in play for more than one turn.
You can of course argue that the text is all that a card needs but types and colours and icons (and keywords, +1 Coffers is far more elegant than take a Coin token) are shorter than walls of text. Just imagine every Treasure card being as white as Action cards and featuring the text: you can only play this in your Buy phase. That would reduce ease of play quite a bit.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2019, 04:34:58 pm »
0

What the type Reserve "means" is when you play it, you put it on your Tavern mat.

But this by itself seems as arbitrary as a thing to give a type to as any other thing that cards do when you play them. Cards with "trash this" don't have a type; Cards with "+1 Action" don't have a type; etc.
Knowing that, except for Coppers, only brown cards can be on your Tavern mat is incredibly useful to prevent mess-ups, just like knowing that those orange cards might stay in play for more than one turn.
You can of course argue that the text is all that a card needs but types and colours and icons (and keywords, +1 Coffers is far more elegant than take a Coin token) are shorter than walls of text. Just imagine every Treasure card being as white as Action cards and featuring the text: you can only play this in your Buy phase. That would reduce ease of play quite a bit.

I don't disagree with the idea of the coloring; especially for things like reactions and durations. Not as sure about reserves, since the Tavern mat isn't all that different from the Native Village or Island mats. But really what I meant was that I see "type" being used in different ways for different types.

When it is used for action, treasure, night, victory, and curse, it means one thing, while when it is used for for duration, reserve, and reaction it is a different thing (color to help it stand out), while it means yet another different thing when used by all the other not-often-used types. I just would have liked to seen the "primary types" get something distinct from all the "secondary types". Durations and Reactions could still have a different color under that system.
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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2019, 04:49:49 pm »
0

I don't think that anything as rigid as primary vs secondary types is necessary, Dominion is thankfully not as rule-intense as a CCG.
You have nonetheless something like an implicit order of types. For example Werewolf is Action-Night-Attack-Doom so you could argue that the "primary" types (that say if/when you can play a card) are coming first, Attack as more of a keyword comes second (although I somehow really like that unlike any similar games it isn't interpreted as keyword in/above the text but as type in a part of the card underneath the normal text, that is somehow visually more elegant) and Doom as a mere setup thing come last.
Then again Josephine isn't playing along, Action-Victory-Attack-Knight, would make more sense from a hierarchy of types perspective.

I also think that a less rigid approach comes with the benefit of a more pronounced theme. Heirlooms and Shelters could just be labeled or codified or coloured or whatever as non-Supply cards and not feature any type. This would be clearer rule-wise but come at the cost of flavour. I like to know that this eerie mirror is a family heirloom.
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Awaclus

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2019, 12:29:29 am »
0

When it is used for action, treasure, night, victory, and curse, it means one thing, while when it is used for for duration, reserve, and reaction it is a different thing (color to help it stand out), while it means yet another different thing when used by all the other not-often-used types. I just would have liked to seen the "primary types" get something distinct from all the "secondary types". Durations and Reactions could still have a different color under that system.

If there were "primary" and "secondary" types, Reaction would be a primary type.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2019, 01:14:11 pm »
0

When it is used for action, treasure, night, victory, and curse, it means one thing, while when it is used for for duration, reserve, and reaction it is a different thing (color to help it stand out), while it means yet another different thing when used by all the other not-often-used types. I just would have liked to seen the "primary types" get something distinct from all the "secondary types". Durations and Reactions could still have a different color under that system.

If there were "primary" and "secondary" types, Reaction would be a primary type.

Why? The Wiki doesn't list it that way. Reaction is a type so that it can get the color, so it can remind you to pay attention to it when you aren't playing it. It doesn't have rules associated with it about what it can do or when.
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Donald X.

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2019, 02:32:55 pm »
+2

When it is used for action, treasure, night, victory, and curse, it means one thing, while when it is used for for duration, reserve, and reaction it is a different thing (color to help it stand out), while it means yet another different thing when used by all the other not-often-used types. I just would have liked to seen the "primary types" get something distinct from all the "secondary types". Durations and Reactions could still have a different color under that system.

If there were "primary" and "secondary" types, Reaction would be a primary type.

Why? The Wiki doesn't list it that way. Reaction is a type so that it can get the color, so it can remind you to pay attention to it when you aren't playing it. It doesn't have rules associated with it about what it can do or when.
Well. If I were changing the game to have primary and secondary types, maybe I would also get to change Reactions to be cards you could play in a certain situation (putting them into play rather than just revealing them). Then they would be primary.
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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2019, 12:06:40 am »
0

Why? The Wiki doesn't list it that way. Reaction is a type so that it can get the color, so it can remind you to pay attention to it when you aren't playing it. It doesn't have rules associated with it about what it can do or when.

It is a type that "can appear as the only type on a card", which is how the Wiki classifies it.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2019, 09:37:17 am »
0

Why? The Wiki doesn't list it that way. Reaction is a type so that it can get the color, so it can remind you to pay attention to it when you aren't playing it. It doesn't have rules associated with it about what it can do or when.

It is a type that "can appear as the only type on a card", which is how the Wiki classifies it.

There is no reaction-only card. Not saying there couldn't be... but it's ambiguous if "can appear as the only type on a card" means that it "could", or if that there are existing examples. The Wiki isn't clear here; that seems like a bad sentence to have. Seems clear that Shelter could also be the only type on a card as much as Reaction could; there was no game design laws that forced all 3 Shelters to also do something that required another type.

Hovel doesn't have any of the 5 listed primary types, but there's also a difference between "can appear as the only type on a card" and "every card must have at least 1 primary type".

Night can also appear as the only type on a card, but it's not listed under the primary types on the Wiki (though under my definition, Night would be a primary type; it doesn't really matter that there's only 1 expansion to use it).
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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2019, 11:34:31 am »
+1

There is no reaction-only card.
Hovel clearly shows that Reaction would indeed, if such a classification system existed, be a primary type.
Shelter is really only a subtype that is there for flavour and to remind you that it is a non-Supply card and couldn't be the only type on a card unless you want to do Confusion / an empty card.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2019, 11:45:05 am »
0

There is no reaction-only card.
Hovel clearly shows that Reaction would indeed, if such a classification system existed, be a primary type.
Shelter is really only a subtype that is there for flavour and to remind you that it is a non-Supply card and couldn't be the only type on a card unless you want to do Confusion / an empty card.

As Donald mentioned, if there were a system involving primary types, then reaction would be a different thing that would be a primary type. Reaction as it exists today does not fit the same category as the primary types. With today's rules, Hovel would function identically without the reaction type.

So really I think we're just talking about 2 different things. The primary types that would exist if there were a primary type system; vs the types that exist under the current system which, under the current system, work differently than the other types.
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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2019, 12:04:23 pm »
0

Sure, it isn't all very formalized. But I am fairly certain that a card with the only type Shelter makes no sense whereas a card with the only type Reaction does. Tunnel makes sense and works without the 2VPs, Necropolis is unplayable without the Action type.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2019, 12:25:25 pm »
0

But I am fairly certain that a card with the only type Shelter makes no sense

I disagree, because a version of Hovel, exactly like it is in every way, except without the reaction type (a card with Shelter as the only type), would make sense, and work exactly the same as it does today.
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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2019, 02:35:53 pm »
0

But I am fairly certain that a card with the only type Shelter makes no sense

I disagree, because a version of Hovel, exactly like it is in every way, except without the reaction type (a card with Shelter as the only type), would make sense, and work exactly the same as it does today.
Sure, the triggers of reactions are fairly arbitarily, e.g. on-gain or on-trash aren't blue.
But cards like Hovel or Tunnels which consist of nothing but a reaction wouldn't make much sense as a non-Reaction. Sure, you could "technically" do it but it wouldn't be a very intuitive design to pretend that a pure reaction card is not a Reaction. It'd be like doing a white card without type that says somewhere in small print "you may only play this in your Buy Phase" instead of painting that fellow yellow.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2019, 12:31:40 pm »
+2

Duration doesn't have any meaningful rules associated with it; all cards are cleaned up on that last turn in which they do something. It just so happens that for regular actions, that's the same turn they were played.

Unless something has changed recently, this is not strictly true. The rules for leaving cards in play specifically refer to Durations; other cards are discarded even if they are still doing something. Otherwise, Possession would stay in play at the end of the turn you played it.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2019, 01:49:48 pm »
0

Duration doesn't have any meaningful rules associated with it; all cards are cleaned up on that last turn in which they do something. It just so happens that for regular actions, that's the same turn they were played.

Unless something has changed recently, this is not strictly true. The rules for leaving cards in play specifically refer to Durations; other cards are discarded even if they are still doing something. Otherwise, Possession would stay in play at the end of the turn you played it.

Yes, the rules as written do make that distinction. I forgot about Possession; I think that's the only exception though where this rule doesn't happen to also apply to non-Durations.
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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2019, 02:12:07 pm »
0

The base game rulebook says that all cards in play and in hand are discarded during Clean-up and that's how everybody teaches the game. Seaside rules mentions an exception to that rule in the case of Durations.

So Durations are an absolutely necessary type and the notion that only the cards that stop doing something are discarded during Clean-up is an incorporation of the specific Duration rules into a general rules framework that tries to makes sense of stuff like throning a Duration.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2019, 03:06:50 pm »
0

The base game rulebook says that all cards in play and in hand are discarded during Clean-up and that's how everybody teaches the game. Seaside rules mentions an exception to that rule in the case of Durations.

So Durations are an absolutely necessary type and the notion that only the cards that stop doing something are discarded during Clean-up is an incorporation of the specific Duration rules into a general rules framework that tries to makes sense of stuff like throning a Duration.

I understand all that. What I meant was that the rule for durations could just as easily be the rule for all cards instead. It wasn't necessarily to make a separate rule for durations. The only difference would be Possession staying out.
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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2019, 04:45:32 pm »
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I understand all that. What I meant was that the rule for durations could just as easily be the rule for all cards instead. It wasn't necessarily to make a separate rule for durations. The only difference would be Possession staying out.
Sure but from a didactic point of view it would have been a total mess to introduce the weird general rule that all cards which stop doing something this turn get discarded when no such cards do exist in Base and Intrigue, a rule which, before 2015, would have been only relevant for the folks who own one expansions out of 8.
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Jeebus

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2019, 12:51:24 pm »
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There is a special rule about Reactions, although not formalized. It's that you can resolve a Reaction card in your hand several times to the same event. That's not a general rule, because then you would get infinite VP with a Goons in play.

EDIT: Well, I kind of take it back. You could state this rule as pertaining to all cards that are resolved in your hand. I don't think any other cards than Reactions can be resolved when they're in your hand.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 12:54:37 pm by Jeebus »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2019, 05:33:03 pm »
0

There is a special rule about Reactions, although not formalized. It's that you can resolve a Reaction card in your hand several times to the same event. That's not a general rule, because then you would get infinite VP with a Goons in play.

EDIT: Well, I kind of take it back. You could state this rule as pertaining to all cards that are resolved in your hand. I don't think any other cards than Reactions can be resolved when they're in your hand.

As I recall, the rule about multiple-revealing is specific to the idea that it is in your hand; this is why you can't reveal a Tunnel repeatedly for multiple Gold when you discard it. It's stems from the fact that your hand is hidden; and thus other players can't tell whether you were revealing the same card twice, or 2 different cards once each. But I'm not aware of this being unique to reaction specifically.

It's a moot question though, as there is no printed non-reaction that says "when, X, you may reveal this from your hand for Y." If such a card did exist though, it would be hard to argue that the intention is that because it's not a reaction, you aren't allowed to reveal it from your hand.
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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2019, 05:58:22 pm »
+3

It's a moot question though

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Jeebus

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2019, 01:19:07 am »
+1

Yes, I said it was only Reactions that are resolved in your hand (and not just revealed, see Market Square). Then I said that it could be that it applies to all cards that can be resolved in your hand. What it stems from is not the issue here though, it's still a rule. We don't really know if it applies to all cards or just Reactions, since there are no non-Reactions like that. But it has always only been talked about when discussing Reactions. Donald has even said that if he had handled Reactions differently, he wouldn't need that rule.
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