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Author Topic: Artifact Origin cards as a card type  (Read 1319 times)

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DooWopDJ

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Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« on: February 06, 2019, 09:09:16 am »
0

As I was re-organizing my cards and noticed that the 'origin' cards for the Artifacts did not have their own 'card type'.  I am not intending to criticize the introduction of this new concept, but the other non-card type cards (at least in Renaissance have some sort of 'origin' card.  Doom > Hex, Fate > Boon.  Why did the Artifacts 'origin' card not have their own type? Maybe 'Reward' or 'Trophy'.  I doubt it was an 'oversight' by design.
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Squidd

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2019, 09:23:47 am »
+4

There would be no rules benefit to a new type. Several cards can add Hexes to the game, so tagging them with Doom means you can put that rule in one place instead of saying it separately for each card. But only Flagbearer adds Flag. Even if you had some Artifact-Bringer type, you would still have to spell out in the rulebook which artifact it brings.

There is precedent of cards that uniquely add another card (Hermit, etc) and those didn't get a special type either.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2019, 09:32:13 am »
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The difference with Doom and Fate is that Hexes and Boons require some setup. The card type is there so that you can see "I have a Fate card; I need to shuffle the Boons".
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Donald X.

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2019, 11:47:33 am »
+2

As I was re-organizing my cards and noticed that the 'origin' cards for the Artifacts did not have their own 'card type'.  I am not intending to criticize the introduction of this new concept, but the other non-card type cards (at least in Renaissance have some sort of 'origin' card.  Doom > Hex, Fate > Boon.  Why did the Artifacts 'origin' card not have their own type? Maybe 'Reward' or 'Trophy'.  I doubt it was an 'oversight' by design.
Types are used in Dominion either to have rules tied to them, or because making the cards a different color has value.

Those cases did not come up here; so, no new type.
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DooWopDJ

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2019, 11:49:49 am »
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There would be no rules benefit to a new type. Several cards can add Hexes to the game, so tagging them with Doom means you can put that rule in one place instead of saying it separately for each card. But only Flagbearer adds Flag. Even if you had some Artifact-Bringer type, you would still have to spell out in the rulebook which artifact it brings.

There is precedent of cards that uniquely add another card (Hermit, etc) and those didn't get a special type either.

Excellent insight on consequences of 'new types'.  Thanks.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2019, 12:10:57 pm »
0

As I was re-organizing my cards and noticed that the 'origin' cards for the Artifacts did not have their own 'card type'.  I am not intending to criticize the introduction of this new concept, but the other non-card type cards (at least in Renaissance have some sort of 'origin' card.  Doom > Hex, Fate > Boon.  Why did the Artifacts 'origin' card not have their own type? Maybe 'Reward' or 'Trophy'.  I doubt it was an 'oversight' by design.
Types are used in Dominion either to have rules tied to them, or because making the cards a different color has value.

Those cases did not come up here; so, no new type.

Doom and Fate are something of a stretch though. Is the only rule attached to them "shuffle the Hex/Boon pile before the game begins"? Receiving a Boon doesn't seem significantly different from gaining a Spoils, or a Prize.
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Donald X.

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2019, 12:34:47 pm »
+1

Doom and Fate are something of a stretch though. Is the only rule attached to them "shuffle the Hex/Boon pile before the game begins"? Receiving a Boon doesn't seem significantly different from gaining a Spoils, or a Prize.
They require you to shuffle the Hexes/Boons, yes. "Receive a Boon" needs rules, it's incomprehensible otherwise, unlike "gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile" - but those rules are independent of "Fate."
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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2019, 10:34:51 pm »
+1

The Heirloom cards are a relevant comparison: Heirlooms themselves have a new type, but the cards they come with do not.
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faust

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2019, 03:18:06 am »
0

As I was re-organizing my cards and noticed that the 'origin' cards for the Artifacts did not have their own 'card type'.  I am not intending to criticize the introduction of this new concept, but the other non-card type cards (at least in Renaissance have some sort of 'origin' card.  Doom > Hex, Fate > Boon.  Why did the Artifacts 'origin' card not have their own type? Maybe 'Reward' or 'Trophy'.  I doubt it was an 'oversight' by design.
Types are used in Dominion either to have rules tied to them, or because making the cards a different color has value.

Those cases did not come up here; so, no new type.
Strictly speaking, Gathering fulfils neither of these requirements; the way I understood it, those cards have a type just so that other cards can refer to them.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2019, 10:38:52 am »
0

As I was re-organizing my cards and noticed that the 'origin' cards for the Artifacts did not have their own 'card type'.  I am not intending to criticize the introduction of this new concept, but the other non-card type cards (at least in Renaissance have some sort of 'origin' card.  Doom > Hex, Fate > Boon.  Why did the Artifacts 'origin' card not have their own type? Maybe 'Reward' or 'Trophy'.  I doubt it was an 'oversight' by design.
Types are used in Dominion either to have rules tied to them, or because making the cards a different color has value.

Those cases did not come up here; so, no new type.
Strictly speaking, Gathering fulfils neither of these requirements; the way I understood it, those cards have a type just so that other cards can refer to them.

Same as Attack. Indeed "so that cards can refer to them" should have been listed as a third reason.
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werothegreat

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2019, 01:16:31 pm »
0

As I was re-organizing my cards and noticed that the 'origin' cards for the Artifacts did not have their own 'card type'.  I am not intending to criticize the introduction of this new concept, but the other non-card type cards (at least in Renaissance have some sort of 'origin' card.  Doom > Hex, Fate > Boon.  Why did the Artifacts 'origin' card not have their own type? Maybe 'Reward' or 'Trophy'.  I doubt it was an 'oversight' by design.
Types are used in Dominion either to have rules tied to them, or because making the cards a different color has value.

Those cases did not come up here; so, no new type.
Strictly speaking, Gathering fulfils neither of these requirements; the way I understood it, those cards have a type just so that other cards can refer to them.

Same as Attack. Indeed "so that cards can refer to them" should have been listed as a third reason.

I think that pretty comfortably falls under "have rules tied to them".
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GendoIkari

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2019, 01:38:33 pm »
0

As I was re-organizing my cards and noticed that the 'origin' cards for the Artifacts did not have their own 'card type'.  I am not intending to criticize the introduction of this new concept, but the other non-card type cards (at least in Renaissance have some sort of 'origin' card.  Doom > Hex, Fate > Boon.  Why did the Artifacts 'origin' card not have their own type? Maybe 'Reward' or 'Trophy'.  I doubt it was an 'oversight' by design.
Types are used in Dominion either to have rules tied to them, or because making the cards a different color has value.

Those cases did not come up here; so, no new type.
Strictly speaking, Gathering fulfils neither of these requirements; the way I understood it, those cards have a type just so that other cards can refer to them.

Same as Attack. Indeed "so that cards can refer to them" should have been listed as a third reason.

I think that pretty comfortably falls under "have rules tied to them".

I suppose you could call the wording on cards such as Moat "rules", but the problem with that any card could refer to any other subset of cards. The question really is whether or not that subset is a subset that it makes sense form a design perspective to want to refer to.

Attack is a simple and logical thing; we want players to be able to respond to their opponents hurting their deck. Gathering probably could have been fine without the type; Defiled Shrine would more or less work fine without that clause; it would just make the gathering cards a little stronger in games with Defiled Shrine.
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DooWopDJ

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2019, 03:18:32 pm »
0

Another similar 'missing' type would be the various cards that involve Spirit type cards
Exorcist, Devil's Workshop and Tormentor are the type 'Conjour'

I understand that the Artifacts have a one-to-one (mostly) relationship, but prefer the idea of a an 'origin' >>> non-supply card correlation.

I would even suggest that the "Potion" cost cards could have been given a type of "Spell"

I appreciate the discussion on this topic though.  It is not meant to be a slight or negative, just 'musings' of the complexities of Dominion.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2019, 03:39:03 pm »
+1

Another similar 'missing' type would be the various cards that involve Spirit type cards
Exorcist, Devil's Workshop and Tormentor are the type 'Conjour'

I understand that the Artifacts have a one-to-one (mostly) relationship, but prefer the idea of a an 'origin' >>> non-supply card correlation.

I would even suggest that the "Potion" cost cards could have been given a type of "Spell"

I appreciate the discussion on this topic though.  It is not meant to be a slight or negative, just 'musings' of the complexities of Dominion.

In my opinion, Dominion actually has far too many types. I think there should be only Action, Treasure, Night, Victory. And Curse, I suppose, although rules-wise that would have worked fine as a Victory type instead.

All the other types are fundamentally different from those 4 or 5. Those ones are really needed; they tell you what you can do with the card and when (when you can play it; or if you can play it). Things like attack could have been a keyword instead; this was dicussed somewhere else recently.

Duration doesn't have any meaningful rules associated with it; all cards are cleaned up on that last turn in which they do something. It just so happens that for regular actions, that's the same turn they were played. It's not clear from the rulebooks if Reaction actually has special rules. For both of those, I can see how the color is helpful, though. Although Temporum did fine with having "until-next-turn" cards just stay out without any special type.

I've said before that I'm against Reserve being a type. It's not even clear what that type means. Not that it can be called (Distant Lands). Not that it uses the Tavern Mat (Miser/Copper). The color doesn't seem particularly meaningful; because you know that stuff on your Tavern Mat is stuff to pay attention to at special times (except when Copper ends up there. Or Distant Lands).
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DooWopDJ

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2019, 11:30:46 pm »
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Another similar 'missing' type would be the various cards that involve Spirit type cards
Exorcist, Devil's Workshop and Tormentor are the type 'Conjour'

I understand that the Artifacts have a one-to-one (mostly) relationship, but prefer the idea of a an 'origin' >>> non-supply card correlation.

I would even suggest that the "Potion" cost cards could have been given a type of "Spell"

I appreciate the discussion on this topic though.  It is not meant to be a slight or negative, just 'musings' of the complexities of Dominion.
And I will now add the Heirloom 'origin' cards to the list (yes I know they have their 'type' in the Heirloom banner, this seems to fall into the same thing that I am noticing as 'types'.
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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2019, 03:43:16 am »
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What the type Reserve "means" is when you play it, you put it on your Tavern mat.
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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2019, 04:03:03 am »
+2

What the type Reserve "means" is when you play it, you put it on your Tavern mat.
But it says so in the card text already. By that logic, Island would need a special type as well.
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faust

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2019, 04:06:57 am »
+1

Another similar 'missing' type would be the various cards that involve Spirit type cards
Exorcist, Devil's Workshop and Tormentor are the type 'Conjour'

I understand that the Artifacts have a one-to-one (mostly) relationship, but prefer the idea of a an 'origin' >>> non-supply card correlation.

I would even suggest that the "Potion" cost cards could have been given a type of "Spell"

I appreciate the discussion on this topic though.  It is not meant to be a slight or negative, just 'musings' of the complexities of Dominion.

In my opinion, Dominion actually has far too many types. I think there should be only Action, Treasure, Night, Victory. And Curse, I suppose, although rules-wise that would have worked fine as a Victory type instead.

All the other types are fundamentally different from those 4 or 5. Those ones are really needed; they tell you what you can do with the card and when (when you can play it; or if you can play it). Things like attack could have been a keyword instead; this was dicussed somewhere else recently.

Duration doesn't have any meaningful rules associated with it; all cards are cleaned up on that last turn in which they do something. It just so happens that for regular actions, that's the same turn they were played. It's not clear from the rulebooks if Reaction actually has special rules. For both of those, I can see how the color is helpful, though. Although Temporum did fine with having "until-next-turn" cards just stay out without any special type.

I've said before that I'm against Reserve being a type. It's not even clear what that type means. Not that it can be called (Distant Lands). Not that it uses the Tavern Mat (Miser/Copper). The color doesn't seem particularly meaningful; because you know that stuff on your Tavern Mat is stuff to pay attention to at special times (except when Copper ends up there. Or Distant Lands).
I agree mostly, though there is some value to being able to refer to certain cards (Knights/Castles/Spirits) Knights and Castles could probably have been solved by "a card from this pile". Things that refer to Spirits could refer to all cards individually, though I expect the wording would be messy on Exorcist.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2019, 10:27:34 am »
+1

What the type Reserve "means" is when you play it, you put it on your Tavern mat.

But this by itself seems as arbitrary as a thing to give a type to as any other thing that cards do when you play them. Cards with "trash this" don't have a type; Cards with "+1 Action" don't have a type; etc.
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DooWopDJ

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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2019, 10:55:05 am »
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What the type Reserve "means" is when you play it, you put it on your Tavern mat.

But this by itself seems as arbitrary as a thing to give a type to as any other thing that cards do when you play them. Cards with "trash this" don't have a type; Cards with "+1 Action" don't have a type; etc.
Good point... I could have gotten carried away and had "Lab", "Village" as types if I extrapolated my thoughts out more.
Note: I still like to see more types, but I can understand why there were limited.
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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2019, 12:03:34 pm »
+1

As I was re-organizing my cards and noticed that the 'origin' cards for the Artifacts did not have their own 'card type'.  I am not intending to criticize the introduction of this new concept, but the other non-card type cards (at least in Renaissance have some sort of 'origin' card.  Doom > Hex, Fate > Boon.  Why did the Artifacts 'origin' card not have their own type? Maybe 'Reward' or 'Trophy'.  I doubt it was an 'oversight' by design.
Types are used in Dominion either to have rules tied to them, or because making the cards a different color has value.

Those cases did not come up here; so, no new type.
Strictly speaking, Gathering fulfils neither of these requirements; the way I understood it, those cards have a type just so that other cards can refer to them.
The rules on cards are also rules, but sure, we can add, having card text able to refer to the type. That is exactly what Gathering is there for.

You could also argue for "letting players refer to the group of cards by the type." This is handy although it's never been enough on its own to create a type.
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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2019, 12:19:16 pm »
+2

In my opinion, Dominion actually has far too many types. I think there should be only Action, Treasure, Night, Victory. And Curse, I suppose, although rules-wise that would have worked fine as a Victory type instead.
I feel the opposite! Types let you refer to the types. This both lets you deal with problems, and lets you make cards that work with a category in the simplest way. The cost is just a word on that bottom bar; it does not feel high. A good example is, multiple cards would have liked to exempt Throne Rooms or one-shots. This would be trivial if they had types. It's essentially impossible given that they don't.

The ability of players to refer to the group is also nice. It's nice in the rulebooks too, even when there aren't special rules.

Of all existing types, conceivably I could have done without Gathering (living with those interactions). The others all feel like they're pulling their weight.

All the other types are fundamentally different from those 4 or 5. Those ones are really needed; they tell you what you can do with the card and when (when you can play it; or if you can play it). Things like attack could have been a keyword instead; this was dicussed somewhere else recently.

Duration doesn't have any meaningful rules associated with it; all cards are cleaned up on that last turn in which they do something. It just so happens that for regular actions, that's the same turn they were played. It's not clear from the rulebooks if Reaction actually has special rules. For both of those, I can see how the color is helpful, though. Although Temporum did fine with having "until-next-turn" cards just stay out without any special type.

I've said before that I'm against Reserve being a type. It's not even clear what that type means. Not that it can be called (Distant Lands). Not that it uses the Tavern Mat (Miser/Copper). The color doesn't seem particularly meaningful; because you know that stuff on your Tavern Mat is stuff to pay attention to at special times (except when Copper ends up there. Or Distant Lands).
"Attack" could be a word in the middle of card text, and that does have some benefits; I don't think anything else can benefit from that approach. Mid-text Attack is handling two things: attacks that are optional, and attacks timed at other than when playing a card (e.g. Ill-Gotten Gains). Arguably I shouldn't have done optional attacks - they're political (yes you can draw two terminals and choose to play the attack or not, but getting rid of some of the politics is still a positive). I don't know how much trouble "let you Moat Ill-Gotten Gains" is worth.

Duration was not originally a type, and Greed also has those cards without a special type. But there is in fact a lot of value to the color there, ditto for Reactions. Reactions originally had rules associated with them, and that version was better (they could be played at a special time).

Reserve cards put themselves on your Tavern mat. It seemed helpful at the time and I mean no regrets.
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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2019, 12:29:13 pm »
+2

Having extra types makes Courtier better, and that's all the reason I need
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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2019, 01:18:56 pm »
+3

The cost is just a word on that bottom bar; it does not feel high.

Honest to God, i first read this sentence and was like, 'huh? The cost is a number on that bottom bar.'
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Re: Artifact Origin cards as a card type
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2019, 02:35:17 pm »
0

The cost is just a word on that bottom bar; it does not feel high.

Honest to God, i first read this sentence and was like, 'huh? The cost is a number on that bottom bar.'

Oh wow I had no idea what that sentence was saying until I read this reply a couple of times.

Also:
Greed also has those cards without a special type.

This was really confusing to me until I finally realized that he wasn't talking about Greed. A situation where autolink is a bad thing.
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