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Author Topic: The Bureaucrat pin  (Read 5415 times)

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GendoIkari

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The Bureaucrat pin
« on: March 08, 2012, 05:30:36 pm »
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Ok, so this is probably not feasible to pull of in any realistic game, but could be an interesting though experiment. Could you design a deck that uses Bureaucrat to guarantee that your opponent has a 0-card hand each turn?

So you need there to be no action/victory cards in the Kingdom, and you probably need something to trash your Coppers. And I think you need Watchtower as well. You use Scrying Pool to draw your entire deck, and play KC -> KC -> Bureaucrat, Bureaucrat, Scheme (revealing Watchtower to trash each Silver that comes in). The Scheme ensures that you'll have Scrying Pool every turn.

Your opponent needs to have at least 5 victory cards in his deck, perhaps you can help him get there with Ambassador. Also, your opponent needs to have ignored Scrying Pool as well as any other card-drawer. But once you get it set up, you should increase the number of green cards on top of his deck every turn, until he has 5 on top. Once he does, then every turn he has to put all 5 of those cards back on top of his deck. Throwing in a few Rabbles will also be a big help as well.
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ecq

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Re: The Bureaucrat pin
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2012, 06:05:58 pm »
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KC, KC, Scheme, Scheme, Bureaucrat, KC, Scheme, Bureaucrat, Bureaucrat
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Bureaucrat pin
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2012, 06:08:57 pm »
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We had this in a thread last week...

RisingJaguar

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Re: The Bureaucrat pin
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2012, 06:11:19 pm »
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http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1854.0

Moral of the story, in a game with KC and Scheme, they'll likely be able to get out. 
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GendoIkari

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Re: The Bureaucrat pin
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2012, 06:36:41 pm »
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Wow I totally missed that discussion in the other thread! :-[
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jotheonah

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Re: The Bureaucrat pin
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2012, 09:35:13 pm »
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Would Fortune Teller help set it up?
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Re: The Bureaucrat pin
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2012, 09:46:07 pm »
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And this is why there should be forum guidelines for posting, one of which being to search before you make a new thread...
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RisingJaguar

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Re: The Bureaucrat pin
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2012, 12:04:24 am »
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Would Fortune Teller help set it up?
Not anymore than rabble.
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jomini

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Re: The Bureaucrat pin
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2012, 09:31:42 am »
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It is okay if the opponent has action-VP cards in play. Because those go back on the deck just fine, you can still reduce opponents to a 0 card hand with B pins.

The biggies are:
1. A lack of useful draw for your opponent. Even something terrible, like KC/pearl diver can go a long ways toward making the pin impossible to hit. Whenever the opponent gets to play some draw, they get the green off the top of the deck, out of their next hand, and into their discard. Some drawers, like shanty town or apprentice, just aren't useful enough for the other guy to get them so you might be able to work something out with them because other players won't touch them. The only big exception to this are dual action-vp cards that you can force out of their hand. Nobles and great hall are dead if they can never stay in hand or be drawn.
2. A way to deal with silver. Watchtower is the obvious one, but it is draw for the other player. Another option is apprentice - a good drawer for you, a bad one for someone without a steady flow of cards they can crunch. Afterall, once you start pinning, they will have crappy hands and bad odds of matching their apprentice up with something better than a copper.
3. A way to quickly get a lot of Bs in play. Let's face it if you try this pin without KC or TR, it's going to be very painful to get all the cards you need/want. 5 Bs, 4 villages, at least one drawer, and a watchtower is going to 11 turns before you can start pinning - and somewhere in there you needed to trash down to make that remotely viable. You might have better luck with IW, but even there you are looking at hitting this very late. Because TR and KC can both chain cards as psuedo villages and allow for multiple plays of a single card they drastically cut needed card totals.
4. It helps if you have something to put some green on top of the deck. Rabble is good, but it draws so it can be a very mixed blessing. KC/Rabble is a good shot at avoiding a B pin. Fortune teller is actually better than Rabble, IMO. This means that once you go for the pin, you can always fish another green out of their discard and put it onto their top deck.
5. Cutpurse. Cutpurse, like B, is unlimited discard. It can be very useful to have cutpurse discard their coppers so that like some conditional drawers like spice merchants, stables, and cellar don't work. Likewise, it can be really useful at keeping your opponent below the 5, 6, and 7 coin thresholds so you can build the lock before they can get their own KC combo going.
6. Ghost ship. Unlike all the other discards, Ghost ship forces a top deck so they cannot just discard the VP cards before you play B; however it is +2 cards which can make pinning that much harder.
7. Useful aternate VP. In order to have any chance at a B pin, you need there to be reason for a good proportion of the opponent's cards to be VP. If you try to B pin when the opponent is hitting colonies, it is going to be painful. If you try it when they are massing silk roads or even nobles, it is much more likely.

All that being said, I've only ever gotten this to work with apprentice for KC/apprentice/B/chap and watchtower for KC/KC/B/B/Watchtower (with island) against any close to compotent opponents. In both cases, it was with selected sets for the purpose of testing this. In both cases I could have won sooner with other better strategies.
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GendoIkari

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Re: The Bureaucrat pin
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2012, 01:17:47 pm »
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It is okay if the opponent has action-VP cards in play. Because those go back on the deck just fine, you can still reduce opponents to a 0 card hand with B pins.

True. For some reason, when I started writing this, I had the strange idea that this pin would leave them with 5 green cards in their hand every turn, instead of 0 cards. I guess I was getting confused and thinking they would draw their 5 before their turn or something. Which of course wouldn't work because they would then discard those 5 cards.
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jomini

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Re: The Bureaucrat pin
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2012, 01:26:58 pm »
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There was a humourous suggestion from the other thread to do something like that. Namely, have your opponent draw as many cards as possible (governor, councile room), play 4 Bs, and then minion him. In theory, you can have him draw his entire deck and be sure of hitting the pin. Minion, however, is so fast I can't imagine even something like KC/Gov getting there in time to stop a minion deck from wasting you first.
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