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Author Topic: 4/4 opening  (Read 17141 times)

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GendoIkari

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4/4 opening
« on: March 08, 2012, 04:53:33 pm »
+2

It's been said that there's very little difference between $3 and $4 in terms of cost. The biggest difference is that you can open with 2 copies of a $3, but not with 2 copies of a $4 (Not counting Nomad camp or your opponent's Noble Brigand buys).

So, which 4s would be way overpowered at $3, specifically because opening 2 of them would be too good?

Top of the list, Sea Hag, probably.
Treasure Map would certainly be better, but would still need support.
Remake/Remake would probably be pretty great.

Things I'm not so sure about:
Quarry/Quarry on a Grand Market board?
Militia/Militia instead of Militia/Silver?
Same with Monument
Would Double-Jack be significantly better?

What other cards would be broken at $3?

I suppose another consideration would be not just opening 2 copies of a given card, but being able to open 2 different cards that cost $4 as well. Any combos of two $4s that would be great to open with if you could?
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blueblimp

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Re: 4/4 opening
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2012, 05:08:27 pm »
0

Tournament/Baron might be pretty good. It'd have a not-too-small chance of picking up a province and another tournament before the second reshuffle.

Oh, and Ironworks/Ironworks would obviously be insane with the right alt vp.
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GendoIkari

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Re: 4/4 opening
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2012, 05:14:26 pm »
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Oh, and Ironworks/Ironworks would obviously be insane with the right alt vp.
Would it be all that much stronger than Ironworks/Workshop?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: 4/4 opening
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2012, 05:28:40 pm »
0


Oh, and Ironworks/Ironworks would obviously be insane with the right alt vp.
Would it be all that much stronger than Ironworks/Workshop?
Yes. Well, also, IW/Wshop is really strong there anyway.

GendoIkari

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Re: 4/4 opening
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2012, 05:34:05 pm »
0


Oh, and Ironworks/Ironworks would obviously be insane with the right alt vp.
Would it be all that much stronger than Ironworks/Workshop?
Yes. Well, also, IW/Wshop is really strong there anyway.
That's my point though. I'm sure that IW/IW would beat IW/Workshop, but I would think it would still be extremely close. At the phase of the game where you are gaining more IW with your IW, it makes no difference (just play Workshop last, you don't need the extra action). Later, when you are gaining Gardens/Silk Roads/Estates, sure the +1 card from IW helps, but the IW/Workshop player probably has 5 IWs and 1 Workshop anyway (in a large deck). Meaning that it's pretty rare that he will end up using his Workshop to gain a victory card anyway. Perhaps only a couple times throughout the whole game. The IW/IW player will get an extra +1 card during those couple extra times, but that's it.
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DG

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Re: 4/4 opening
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2012, 05:36:27 pm »
+1

Talisman. Potion. Remake.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: 4/4 opening
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2012, 06:08:42 pm »
0


Oh, and Ironworks/Ironworks would obviously be insane with the right alt vp.
Would it be all that much stronger than Ironworks/Workshop?
Yes. Well, also, IW/Wshop is really strong there anyway.
That's my point though. I'm sure that IW/IW would beat IW/Workshop, but I would think it would still be extremely close. At the phase of the game where you are gaining more IW with your IW, it makes no difference (just play Workshop last, you don't need the extra action). Later, when you are gaining Gardens/Silk Roads/Estates, sure the +1 card from IW helps, but the IW/Workshop player probably has 5 IWs and 1 Workshop anyway (in a large deck). Meaning that it's pretty rare that he will end up using his Workshop to gain a victory card anyway. Perhaps only a couple times throughout the whole game. The IW/IW player will get an extra +1 card during those couple extra times, but that's it.
Biggest difference, I think, is being able to hammer the IW pile even that much sooner. And the card or money isn't totally negligible.

jonts26

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Re: 4/4 opening
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2012, 06:34:00 pm »
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Feast/Feast would be fun.
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Re: 4/4 opening
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2012, 08:53:15 pm »
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Would throne room be much better?
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Tahtweasel

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Re: 4/4 opening
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2012, 11:29:43 pm »
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Feast/Feast would be fun.
That sounds like one of the worst openings I've ever heard of, for virtually any set.
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jonts26

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Re: 4/4 opening
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2012, 12:29:35 am »
0

Feast/Feast would be fun.
That sounds like one of the worst openings I've ever heard of, for virtually any set.

Governor, Minion, Dukes, Torturer (assuming village), Any engine that doesn't really want silver (Festival/watchtower for example), Vault into Grand Markets, Hunting Party. I'm sure it wouldn't be a regular occurrence but there are lots of times when you'd open double feast if you could.
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O

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Re: 4/4 opening
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2012, 01:20:01 am »
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It's been said that there's very little difference between $3 and $4 in terms of cost. The biggest difference is that you can open with 2 copies of a $3, but not with 2 copies of a $4 (Not counting Nomad camp or your opponent's Noble Brigand buys).

So, which 4s would be way overpowered at $3, specifically because opening 2 of them would be too good?

Top of the list, Sea Hag, probably.
Treasure Map would certainly be better, but would still need support.
Remake/Remake would probably be pretty great.

Things I'm not so sure about:
Quarry/Quarry on a Grand Market board?
Militia/Militia instead of Militia/Silver?
Same with Monument
Would Double-Jack be significantly better?

What other cards would be broken at $3?

I suppose another consideration would be not just opening 2 copies of a given card, but being able to open 2 different cards that cost $4 as well. Any combos of two $4s that would be great to open with if you could?

Treasure Map at 3$ probably comes close to BM-Smithy. Treasure map at 4$ beats BMU if optimized correctly, I believe.
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Davio

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Re: 4/4 opening
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2012, 04:41:17 am »
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I don't think double Jack would be any better.

In fact double Jack isn't even better than single jack. It's only better when there are interactions from your opponent, but single Jack and double Jack are 50/50. Maybe double Jack has more room for optimizations, but the gap is by no means gigantic.
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Geronimoo

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Re: 4/4 opening
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2012, 05:14:03 am »
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Single Jack is worse than doubleJack. Dominiate plays the Jack slightly worse than my simulator.
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Davio

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Re: 4/4 opening
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2012, 05:22:54 am »
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Single Jack is worse than doubleJack. Dominiate plays the Jack slightly worse than my simulator.
Ah, I used Dominiate for the sims. What's the key difference between your play rules?
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Geronimoo

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Re: 4/4 opening
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2012, 05:44:25 am »
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Glooble

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Re: 4/4 opening
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2012, 06:21:06 am »
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Caravan might not be broken at 3 because of the opening, but being able to pick up two with 6 and two buys would be a bit much, I think. Same with Conspirator.
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jomini

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Re: 4/4 opening
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2012, 09:39:34 am »
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Remember a biggie here: Throne room. A lot of the really powerful 4s are action deficient so we don't have to worry too much about high odds disparities that break games. However, something like TR/Bridge on a peddler/salvager board can make 3 peddlers for the guy who hits it, and jack all for the guy who doesn't. Likewise, TR/Cutpurse just destroys hands. Even something simple like TR/Smithy is pretty insane if you have it hit (gold in deck/hand on T4). This can create a lot of variance in games and make it the strongest move in multiplayer, every single time.

Another shot I think might be important is multiple kinds of attacks. For instance it I can play both handsize reduction and cursers it sucks for you on a 5/2 opening. Do you go library to fight hand size reduction or do you go for trading post to fight curses?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 02:31:56 pm by jomini »
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ycz6

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Re: 4/4 opening
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2012, 02:23:27 pm »
+1

Really anything with two strong opening cards would be good. Tournament/Monument, Caravan/Remake, and the like.

Quarry/Talisman could make for a pretty fast game.

Bishop/Bishop into a Chapel-less Golden Deck?
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eHalcyon

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Re: 4/4 opening
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2012, 05:46:16 pm »
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Remember a biggie here: Throne room. A lot of the really powerful 4s are action deficient so we don't have to worry too much about high odds disparities that break games. However, something like TR/Bridge on a peddler/salvager board can make 3 peddlers for the guy who hits it, and jack all for the guy who doesn't. Likewise, TR/Cutpurse just destroys hands. Even something simple like TR/Smithy is pretty insane if you have it hit (gold in deck/hand on T4). This can create a lot of variance in games and make it the strongest move in multiplayer, every single time.

Another shot I think might be important is multiple kinds of attacks. For instance it I can play both handsize reduction and cursers it sucks for you on a 5/2 opening. Do you go library to fight hand size reduction or do you go for trading post to fight curses?

Would TR/X really be a good opening?  It's more likely for TR to miss the other action than to have them line up, isn't it?  In that case, TR is just a dead card.

Also, if you are working on a 4/4 opening, your opponent would have the same or 5/3, no?
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GendoIkari

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Re: 4/4 opening
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2012, 06:11:49 pm »
0

Remember a biggie here: Throne room. A lot of the really powerful 4s are action deficient so we don't have to worry too much about high odds disparities that break games. However, something like TR/Bridge on a peddler/salvager board can make 3 peddlers for the guy who hits it, and jack all for the guy who doesn't. Likewise, TR/Cutpurse just destroys hands. Even something simple like TR/Smithy is pretty insane if you have it hit (gold in deck/hand on T4). This can create a lot of variance in games and make it the strongest move in multiplayer, every single time.

Another shot I think might be important is multiple kinds of attacks. For instance it I can play both handsize reduction and cursers it sucks for you on a 5/2 opening. Do you go library to fight hand size reduction or do you go for trading post to fight curses?

Would TR/X really be a good opening?  It's more likely for TR to miss the other action than to have them line up, isn't it?  In that case, TR is just a dead card.

Also, if you are working on a 4/4 opening, your opponent would have the same or 5/3, no?

Well TR/4 generally wouldn't be good, because it's not likely to hit.  But his point is valid; it would be bad for the game because some people would buy it anyway, then get lucky and have them hit. Same with opening 2 Treasure Maps, really.
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jomini

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Re: 4/4 opening
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2012, 01:14:11 pm »
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Remember a biggie here: Throne room. A lot of the really powerful 4s are action deficient so we don't have to worry too much about high odds disparities that break games. However, something like TR/Bridge on a peddler/salvager board can make 3 peddlers for the guy who hits it, and jack all for the guy who doesn't. Likewise, TR/Cutpurse just destroys hands. Even something simple like TR/Smithy is pretty insane if you have it hit (gold in deck/hand on T4). This can create a lot of variance in games and make it the strongest move in multiplayer, every single time.

Another shot I think might be important is multiple kinds of attacks. For instance it I can play both handsize reduction and cursers it sucks for you on a 5/2 opening. Do you go library to fight hand size reduction or do you go for trading post to fight curses?

Would TR/X really be a good opening?  It's more likely for TR to miss the other action than to have them line up, isn't it?  In that case, TR is just a dead card.

Also, if you are working on a 4/4 opening, your opponent would have the same or 5/3, no?

TR/X would be a high variance opening. On average, it might lose, but it will give rise a to a lot of games that are essentially won or lost in the first 4 turns which generally sucks. I mean people (like me) dislike swindler games because in <10% of games swindler hits your power card (turning a good 4 into a potion or a 5 into a duchy) and burying it for this shuffle. TR/X would be much higher viarance than that.

Further in multiplayer you'd have the problem that high variance strategies are a much more likely way to win, so you'd expect them to dominate heavily there.

As far as 5/3 openings, well there are two ways to do this you can either change the starting cards to be 8c2e or you can reprice the 4's to 3 coin. I had assumed the latter. If we go with the former, then 5/2 isn't as much of a complete bust, but you still face the same problem - your opponent can play militia/hag and you still can only responde with traders (a 4) or library (a 5); or you can join the attack fight ... but only deal one type of attack.

This part of the reason why I think multi-player dominion is much less balanced than 2er. If you are the last guy, odds are good that you be attacked every turn (the first player normally gets at least one free turn) and that you will be attacked with multiple types of attacks. I really like that in 2er there are very few attacks that cost 3 and that most of the 3 attacks tend to be early game dominating.
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WrathOfGlod

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Re: 4/4 opening
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2012, 02:16:04 pm »
+2

With the exception of drawers TR/X is less good in the early game than X/X openings because TR/X relies on a collision (~30% chance) while X/X relies on no collision (~70%)
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RisingJaguar

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Re: 4/4 opening
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2012, 02:36:50 pm »
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Can't people already do TR/X? Sure the strength of $4 cards is much more than $3 cards on average, but I doubt 4/4 is going to see a sudden influx of TR/X starts.  Nobody buys TR/Masq like they wouldn't buy TR/YW or something like that. 
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jomini

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Re: 4/4 opening
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2012, 03:00:46 pm »
+1

I understand that TR/X is generally weaker than X/X, excepting draw. The point is that TR/X is high variance and leads to games where the game is effectively over by T4. TR/Baron is crappy odds, but if it hits it can mean getting a Plat in play with the 2nd shuffle (T5). Likewise, TR/Coppersmith allows for an early plat. A number of other cards - like navigator, can make for high variance TR openings (TR-Navigator - leave 2 cards on top of your deck and look at playing a T4 gold).

Pretty much, these things mean that if a player goes for them and misses collision, he loses, which makes the game less fun for the other player as he is no longer challenged.

If they go and hit, it makes it very hard for the other player to come back.

Either outcome makes a for a game lacking in challenge and often fun.

In multi-player, say 4er, going for something like this might be your best odds of winning. A 30% chance of getting your TR/Smithy and getting first crack at the good cards (like goons) is much better than mirroring and taking your 25% odds.

WoG: yes I get that, TR/X is worse on average, but it is high variance. For many cards, when it works ... it REALLY works. It decides the game very early on.

RJ: None of 3 cards can draw better than +4 cards with TR/X - leaving you with a net +2 cards; further most all of the +2 cards options are stuff that tends to be weak - wishing well, shanty town, moat etc. Even with an early gold and some cycling, you still have a weak deck. That is not true with the 4's where payouts can be much bigger (I see multiple ways for TR/X with 4's to hit 9 coin) and much more useful late game.

Currently the highest variance TR/X openings are TR/swindler (2 chances to turn a starting buy into something useless) and TR/Chancellor. Both have a shot a buying a T3 gold, but both are pretty weak. Variance is just not as high for TR/X with 3s as with 4s.
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