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Author Topic: Sauna and Innovation  (Read 1213 times)

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Jeebus

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Sauna and Innovation
« on: January 27, 2019, 02:26:23 pm »
0

Another question to bother Donald with (sorry). This is something that some of us have mused about before, but it never mattered until now. Champion, Merchant and Sauna say "when you play x". But when do you do it, before or after you resolve the played card?

The one situation I can think of is: Play Sauna; then play Silver, trashing a Catacombs, gaining a Black Market/Storyteller, playing it via Innovation. Now it matters if the Silver has been resolved or not. (Edit: Also the number of Actions you get from playing Champion, which matters for Diadem.)

We have some groups of...things:

1) Reactions like Moat, plus Urchin - "when you play x, first"
2) Champion, Merchant and Sauna - "when you play x"
3) Adventures tokens - "when you play x, first"

(Excluded here are cards that say "when you play this" (Noble Brigand, Philosopher's Stone, etc.) since that's part of resolving the play ability, not a triggered ability.)

Reactions/Urchin used to say just "when you play x", but still happened before the played card. Then Adventures came along with tokens that said "first", and later 2nd editions of Reactions/Urchin also said "first" to clarify the timing. Presumably Champion, Merchant and Sauna never got this wording because it didn't matter.

Coin of the Realm, Royal Carriage and Citadel indicate that they happen after the played card. But Champion, Merchant and Sauna don't say either way.

So currently we have some things that say "first" and others that don't. This is the same situation as after Adventures came out, and of course Reactions/Urchin nevertheless happened before the played card. Going by this, it would seem that Sauna should too.

On the other hand, the intuitive interpretation for most players would probably be that the Silver produces $2 before you trash a card.



« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 12:13:06 pm by Jeebus »
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Donald X.

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Re: Sauna and Innovation
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2019, 04:20:48 pm »
+2

Another question to bother Donald with (sorry). This is something that some of us have mused about before, but it never mattered until now. Champion, Merchant and Sauna say "when you play x". But when do you do it, before or after you resolve the played card?
After.

Reactions/Urchin used to say just "when you play x", but still happened before the played card. Then Adventures came along with tokens that said "first", and later 2nd editions of Reactions/Urchin also said "first" to clarify the timing. Presumably Champion, Merchant and Sauna never got this wording because it didn't matter.
Yes; but, those cards didn't get the wording, and don't seem to need it, so I'm not going to rule that secretly they have it. They don't have it.
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Jeebus

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Re: Sauna and Innovation
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2019, 05:32:07 pm »
0

Thanks for the ruling.

I have a related question. When do Coin of the Realm, Royal Carriage and Citadel trigger?



I'm pretty sure they have the exact same trigger, although it's phrased a bit differently?

If you Inherit Embargo and play an Inherited Estate, it's trashed and is not an Action card. Can you now call CotR or Royal Carriage? Does Citadel replay it?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 07:46:26 pm by Jeebus »
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AJD

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Re: Sauna and Innovation
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2019, 07:43:32 pm »
+1

(You can't call Royal Carriage, it's not "still in play".)
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AJD

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Re: Sauna and Innovation
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2019, 07:51:15 pm »
+1

Also, here's my guesses: yes, you can call Coin of the Realm. Citadel tries to replay it but it has no effect because it's just a vanilla Estate now.

(Actually, what does Throne–Inheritance–Embargo so? I guess Citadel–Inheritance–Embargo does the same as that, but I don't remember what the ruling is.)
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Jeebus

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Re: Sauna and Innovation
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2019, 08:08:58 pm »
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Also, here's my guesses: yes, you can call Coin of the Realm. Citadel tries to replay it but it has no effect because it's just a vanilla Estate now.

(Actually, what does Throne–Inheritance–Embargo so? I guess Citadel–Inheritance–Embargo does the same as that, but I don't remember what the ruling is.)

It does nothing; playing a plain Estate has no effect. So you're right that Citadel doesn't do anything no matter what. For practical matters it seems that this only matters for Coin of the Realm. (Edit: It also matters for Citadel, since if it replays a card - even with no effect - it doesn't replay your next card.)

I think my initial question is phrased wrong actually. "When does it trigger" doesn't matter I think. The question is if these cards are like Guildhall, that they only care that you played (or "finished playing") an Action card. It really seems so, especially on Citadel.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 12:14:34 pm by Jeebus »
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Donald X.

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Re: Sauna and Innovation
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2019, 11:56:35 pm »
+2

I'm pretty sure they have the exact same trigger, although it's phrased a bit differently?
Yes, they are the same but phrased so as to be clear to players.

If you Inherit Embargo and play an Inherited Estate, it's trashed and is not an Action card. Can you now call CotR or Royal Carriage? Does Citadel replay it?
So far it seems like, we have a not-ever-happening situation, involving those shapeshifting cards that I may still errata to get rid of this endless nonsense - maybe even if the errata will never make it into physical versions or even the online version. If there's no other way this matters then it doesn't really need a ruling, and if there's some other way this matters then I want to take that into account when ruling. So. Let's wait and see if there's some other way this matters.
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Jeebus

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Re: Sauna and Innovation
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2019, 12:33:23 am »
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Well, there's also Mining Village, Experiment, Death Cart, Engineer, etc. that you can Inherit. But it still involves Inheritance so I guess it's not different. I doubt there's any way it matters without Inheritance.

faust

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Re: Sauna and Innovation
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2019, 01:00:16 am »
+1

Engineer, etc. that you can Inherit.
Good luck with that.
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Donald X.

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Re: Sauna and Innovation
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2019, 09:15:21 am »
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Well, there's also Mining Village, Experiment, Death Cart, Engineer, etc. that you can Inherit. But it still involves Inheritance so I guess it's not different. I doubt there's any way it matters without Inheritance.
You wouldn't be calling Coin of the Realm after a Mining Village or Experiment. So there's Death Cart, you might actually Inherit that and then want more actions after playing one.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Sauna and Innovation
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2019, 10:10:00 am »
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You wouldn't be calling Coin of the Realm after a Mining Village or Experiment.
You're about to move to the Buy Phase and play Diadem?
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Jeebus

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Re: Sauna and Innovation
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2019, 10:16:28 am »
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Ignoring the Diadem case, there's also Feast (yes I know), Treasure Map (unlikely), Farmers' Market. With cost reduction Pillage, Tragic Hero.

Donald X.

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Re: Sauna and Innovation
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2019, 12:30:31 pm »
+2

You wouldn't be calling Coin of the Realm after a Mining Village or Experiment.
You're about to move to the Buy Phase and play Diadem?
You wouldn't be calling Coin of the Realm after a Mining Village or Experiment, except for the edge cases that always exist and yet somehow always need to be mentioned and which don't possibly matter here.
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Donald X.

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Re: Sauna and Innovation
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2019, 12:40:10 pm »
+1

Ignoring the Diadem case, there's also Feast (yes I know), Treasure Map (unlikely), Farmers' Market. With cost reduction Pillage, Tragic Hero.
Feast may be oop but it's still "supported"; lots of people have it.

"Directly after you finish playing an Action card." If I fix the shapeshifters then Coin will work, so it's tempting to let Coin work so that that ruling won't change. You didn't "finish playing an Action card" though. You finished playing a card but it's not an Action. There's no sense there of "when you play an Action card, okay now after it's done." However similar the phrasing may be to e.g. Citadel, it's different.
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Jeebus

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Re: Sauna and Innovation
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2019, 01:13:41 pm »
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It depends what it means to "finish playing an Action card". Maybe it's possible to view it as on Guildhall: you played a Treasure, no matter if it changed later. The process that you finished doing was "playing an Action card".

Another thought is that maybe these cards will have new wordings to match Citadel some day?

Coin of the Realm: When you play an Action card, you may call this afterwards, for +2 Actions.
Royal Carriage: When you play an Action card, if it's still in play afterwards, you may call this, to replay that Action.

But that doesn't help the current situation I guess, unless you rule that this is how they effectively work.

Donald X.

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Re: Sauna and Innovation
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2019, 01:38:53 pm »
+1

It depends what it means to "finish playing an Action card". Maybe it's possible to view it as on Guildhall: you played a Treasure, no matter if it changed later. The process that you finished doing was "playing an Action card".
That doesn't sound unreasonable.

Another thought is that maybe these cards will have new wordings to match Citadel some day?
I don't need to rule it out, but right now the plan is not to pour more work into new printings. There would need to be something making that happen.
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werothegreat

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Re: Sauna and Innovation
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2019, 02:35:38 pm »
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I think players would intuitively think they could call CotR after playing an inherited Death Cart, and not really think about "but technically it's only a Victory card now", and I would lean towards a ruling letting players call CotR after playing Inherited self-trashers.  RC can't be called on it anyway, so it doesn't matter.  Citadel I could see replaying the one-shot.
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Jeebus

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Re: Sauna and Innovation
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2019, 10:58:12 am »
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I realized this also matters for Citadel after all. If Citadel tries to replay the Estate, even though it fails, it means that Citadel won't replay the next Action card you play.

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Re: Sauna and Innovation
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2019, 08:52:40 am »
+2

Another question to bother Donald with (sorry). This is something that some of us have mused about before, but it never mattered until now. Champion, Merchant and Sauna say "when you play x". But when do you do it, before or after you resolve the played card?
After.

Reactions/Urchin used to say just "when you play x", but still happened before the played card. Then Adventures came along with tokens that said "first", and later 2nd editions of Reactions/Urchin also said "first" to clarify the timing. Presumably Champion, Merchant and Sauna never got this wording because it didn't matter.
Yes; but, those cards didn't get the wording, and don't seem to need it, so I'm not going to rule that secretly they have it. They don't have it.

hmm this discussion ignored what Donald once ruled: "Let's pretend it [Champion] says "first."
It seems to be consensus that (without any special circumstances), after you play Champion you have exactly the same number of Actions left as before, because playing it use up an Action, and the first effect of Champion is to give you back an Action.

But shouldn't Champion trigger on it's own playing, thus giving an additional action?
Let's pretend it says "first." Well there you go, it says "first," so it happens before Champion resolves, so you didn't have the ability yet.

The other things like this in Adventures are timed "first." Champion is intended to have that same timing. It leaves off the word because it only matters for Diadem and is heavily implied by Champion giving +1 Action.
(sorry if I missed any related thread changing the ruling.)

I believe he considered what was the most simple here again, but I think Merchant and Sauna should also pretend to have it. The difference before/after resolving a card you put into play can be clearly expressed by dichotomy of "when you play" and "directly after you play". "First" is OK if you need more clearness, but packing different meanings into "when you play" will cause more confusion than now. What should be changed in the future is not CotR nor Royal Carriage but Citadel.
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Jeebus

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Re: Sauna and Innovation
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2019, 10:50:36 am »
0

I had obviously forgotten about that thread when I created this one. You're right, now we have two contradictory rulings.

As I wrote, taking into consideration that we had cards in the past that did not say "first" but were intended to be played that way, I would assume that Champion, Merchant and Sauna would work that way too. But the reasons I see for ruling the other way (like Donald did here), is that (1) most players would intuitively interpretate it that way and (2) the cards would be the only current ones that resolve "first" without saying "first".

Going back to the old thread regarding Champion possibly triggering on its own playing...
If Donald sticks to his current ruling, it still probably doesn't mean that. Champion says "when you play an Action", which means that it triggers at the same time as Reactions; the difference is just that Reactions are resolved "first":

1) Play Witch.
2) Champion and Diplomat trigger.
3) Diplomat is resolved now, before Witch.
4) Witch is resolved.
5) Champion is resolved.

As you write, this relates to when Citadel, Coin of the Realm and Royal Carriage trigger. Citadel says "[when] you play an Action card", so it seems to work like Champion and Diplomat, triggering on (2). Then of course it's resolved on (5). Coin of the Realm and Royal Carriage is worded differently, but they are all supposed to have the same timing according to Donald in this thread and in other threads. Interpreting them like Citadel, as I wrote earlier, makes all these cards (Champion, Merchant, Sauna, Citadel, Coin of the Realm, Royal Carriage) work exactly the same:

Coin of the Realm: When you play an Action card, you may call this afterwards, for +2 Actions.
Royal Carriage: When you play an Action card, if it's still in play afterwards, you may call this, to replay that Action.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 10:25:12 am by Jeebus »
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