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[UmbrageOfSnow]

EBWOP: So do Ashersky's commas.

What is wrong with me?

Much like my supposed use of two commas, this is a UoS scumtell.

Funny because the comma thing was deliberately BS. I think you're actually less likely than average to be scum.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Awaclus, why should I think that you are town?

More importantly, what leads you to believe Awaclus was townreading Robz?

[Uncleeurope]

I don’t really know what you mean, you may be viewing this game using masculine/feminine, but I am not. I am basing my reads on activity and content. Implying that I lack empathy/discernment helps nothing.

I think ignoring whatever outside biases you may have makes you worse at this game. If you come up with a scum list and all of the people on it share a certain non game-related characteristic - and it does not matter whether this is gender, age, activity level, native language or something else - then you should absolutely critically evaluate whether there is a bias that makes you scumread this particular set of players. This has not so much to do with identity politics as it has with being a good player. I don't think Space ever meant to imply that you lack empathy and don't see where you got that impression.

We all have biases - funnily enough I think Space's read on MiX is heavily influenced by non-game related bias.

I agree that ignoring bias would be bad, but I don’t think there is bias to ignore here. And if your response is “well how can you know?” I can’t, but there comes a time during critical self-evaluation that I have to decide that my opinions are genuine, otherwise I can’t believe anything. So that’s what I mean when I say I’m not looking at the game like that, I’m as sure as I am about anything else I believe.

Vote: Awaclus

PPE: 5

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Okay, caught up.

Vote: faust

[UmbrageOfSnow]

And if your response is “well how can you know?” I can’t, but there comes a time during critical self-evaluation that I have to decide that my opinions are genuine, otherwise I can’t believe anything. So that’s what I mean when I say I’m not looking at the game like that, I’m as sure as I am about anything else I believe.

To be fair, you have lots of objectively wrong opinions.

(I don't actually think you're being biased here either, for what that's worth. I'm just obligated to say this.)

[Uncleeurope]

And if your response is “well how can you know?” I can’t, but there comes a time during critical self-evaluation that I have to decide that my opinions are genuine, otherwise I can’t believe anything. So that’s what I mean when I say I’m not looking at the game like that, I’m as sure as I am about anything else I believe.

To be fair, you have lots of objectively wrong opinions.

(I don't actually think you're being biased here either, for what that's worth. I'm just obligated to say this.)

It isn’t objectively wrong to say that you are petty, though.

[MiX]

didn't read it all but I agree with didds being suspicious, her vote was reeeeally weird

Not weird, just not good. Pretty much all of my choices were related low inactivity, and were obvi wrong. Robz should have claimed, there was plenty of time for us to find a better lynch had he didn’t so. But I will fully admit that I was just trying to be helpful. I left LL when enough folks said it wasn’t fair to lynch him with no internet access, etc, so while I’m on Robz early it’s because he seemed viable based on the talk even if it wants yet about votes. And I wasn’t moving to Jimmm.

Ok, that actually clears things up better for me.  Cancel my last point, carry on.

This seems odd. shraeye doesn't like Didds' vote but then immediatly withdraws it? And who said it wasn't fair to lynch LL with no internet access? That's such a non-issue, not like anyone was going to claim...oh faust mentions it. So faust's reason for finding the LL wagon lazy was because it appeared out of thin air close to deadline...but it's not like LL had done anything earlier than that! Now that I think about it, the LL wagon died fast, didn't it?

Anyway, I can't say that shraeye believing it is scummy, just feels...too easy, like shraeye didn't want to have a scumread on Didds. I have a feeling I'm looking too much into everything D2, maybe I should stop.

If my *unstellar* performance in M121 is any indication, stubbornness is not exclusively a scumtrait.  I'm hardly sure it's a scum-trait at all.

Scum loves doing things based on things not related to the game, so they don't have to explain anything. Being stubborn's a really easy way to put down a vote and not budge ever, despite anything others say. But you're right, it's not just a scumtrait, which is precisely why it's a good scum tactic. Not much else to say here.

Snow came in to argue a point with MiX then left. He didn’t try and add anything new, just walk someone through a point. That’s unlike him (not the skiing someone through a point, but the not adding anything new bit).

I actually don't remember what UoS did at the end of D1, besides asking me a bunch of weird questions. Let's see...

Vote: Robz

Baaaaaaaaa

Oh. @UoS, why did you vote Robz?


This post's getting huge, let's split it.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Oh. @UoS, why did you vote Robz?

I thought my explanation was very eloquent.

[Awaclus]

Vote: MiX

[MiX]

Did you find Robz scummy yesterday? Why did you announce intent to hammer?

Not really, but the only way we were going to get a lynch was if I helped. He was null to me so it was better than nothing. Of course Robz didn't claim and so we lost the best PR, but I'm not really sorry for him, more annoyed at the people running away from LL like crazy.

If you read her explanation and immediately discard it because she's lying scum, then you're probably going to have to explain to the rest of the thread why you are so sure she's scum.  And it's not because of an OMGUS vote, because you made that conclusion BASED on the fact that you know she's scum.

This reasoning is backward, and smells like a very fake read.  "Make a decision first, find the evidence later"

I don't think I discarded it...but at this point I lost track of what I felt about raerae. I've probably adressed this when I softened my scumread on raerae (currently it's just because she essencially only interacted with 3 people, but that's more null than scummy).

And yes, I was trying to test my raerae case, I had a scumread on her all night and it increased when I was rereading, so I said it. She defended herself well, so I backed off. There's better players to look today anyway.

Now something unrelated: @chicken, why, exactly, did you scumread Robz? Did you ever say that? I don't see it...

I don't believe I ever posted my reasoning, but straight out the gate he with absolutely no supporting logic voted for me, which might have evoked a mild emotional reaction - I think I'd made 2 posts at that point and he hadn't made almost any either. At that point in time, we were two of the least active players in the game and it seemed that he was trying to draw attention away from himself just by pointing it at me.

But mostly what egged me to my final vote was

I love all the people dancing around with the idea of voting Robz but not doing it.

Same.

and Robz's own

Space, move your vote to someone who is actually getting lynched maybe.

Perhaps I scumread the shoving a vote my way a bit too much but at the time it was
A: a bandwagon that actually had support
B: my first and initial scumtrigger

Okay... So what about those 2 quotes made you feel Robz was scummy? What are your other scumreads? New players have a tendency to focus a lot of their attention to things that affect them, maybe you should try to look into players you haven't interacted with yet; for example, it seems like you voted Robz because he voted you. I have to say, if you were any other player, I would be scumreading you right now, because those 2 posts are not only null, the last one's actually towny, however, you're in the "no-lynch" zone, so it makes sense. Just elaborate these points. Also, Jimmmmmm, LL and Space had support too, why didn't you go there?

Ah, almost forgot: what were your scumreads when you voted Robz? Surely it wasn't just him, right?

If you look at the Robz wagon, I think the point of no return was when Awaclus voted. This is exemplified here:

Datswan votes for Robz because he doesn't want his vote to go to waste and he doesn't want to lynch Space.

Awaclus jumps on.

I don't want to lynch Space either and it's looking unlikely anything else is going to pick up steam so I jump on too.

Glooble clearly felt that after Awaclus's vote, there was no way for an alternate wagon to succeed. DatSwan is up there too, epsecially because he made it clear that his vote was final, but I really think Awaclus drove this mislynch home. So, we should all be voting Awaclus.

You even mention him, but I think you're not giving enough relevance to Swan. I believe him, along with chicken and Space, are the ones that secured the Robz lynch. Awaclus only appeared when it was inevitable, the anti-Robz folk were too dilluted in the LL/e/Space wagon (I'm at fault there too), in fact, it's a bit weird when you consider that faust started the Space wagon and immediatly afterwards Swan said he didn't want a Space lynch. Also don't like how Swan said a bunch of NAI things, stated "Glooble is town", voted Robz and dissapeared. Maybe they're just really busy...

Hmm, the timing on Swan's vote is much more suspicious than Space's timing + my (weak) case on them, so:

Vote: Swan

Awaclus, why should I think that you are town?

Well, there are only weak reasons so far but I did some scumhunting yesterday and participated in getting the lynch through.

What scumhunting? You did nothing D1, you were away for half of it and the other half you said a NAI thing and voted Robz, thats it. How is that scumhunting?

Vote: MiX

Sounds like a good way to avoid getting lynched by going to the biggest wagon. But, okay, why am I scum? To answer your follow-up question, I'm not scum because I've been incredibly active and I'm trying to catch scum while interacting enough to see if people catch on to the fact that I'm town. Is that good enough? I hope not, because otherwise all scum had to do was be active, but it should still count for something.

PPE a bunch of posts I didn't quote

[faust]

Also, were you going to do some NKA or just comment that it would be useful, because I'm kind of waiting to see what you have to say.

Just comment.

[faust]

Awaclus, why should I think that you are town?

More importantly, what leads you to believe Awaclus was townreading Robz?

Nothing.

[Awaclus]

What scumhunting? You did nothing D1, you were away for half of it and the other half you said a NAI thing and voted Robz, thats it. How is that scumhunting?

I voted for e at a crucial moment which was likely to cause reactions from a lot of different people.

[Awaclus]

Sounds like a good way to avoid getting lynched by going to the biggest wagon.

It's also a good way to do a lot of other things. And no, that's not good enough.

[MiX]

What scumhunting? You did nothing D1, you were away for half of it and the other half you said a NAI thing and voted Robz, thats it. How is that scumhunting?

I voted for e at a crucial moment which was likely to cause reactions from a lot of different people.

You're right. You turned it into a real wagon. Which means you're doing everything in your townmeta. Okay, I like this explanation.

Sounds like a good way to avoid getting lynched by going to the biggest wagon.

It's also a good way to do a lot of other things. And no, that's not good enough.

Aaaaand there goes my other argument. So I think Awaclus' town(y) now...

Awaclus, why should I think that you are town?

More importantly, what leads you to believe Awaclus was townreading Robz?

What makes you think faust believed Awaclus had a townread on Robz?

Oh. @UoS, why did you vote Robz?

I thought my explanation was very eloquent.

No, it wasn't...

[shraeye]

What scumhunting? You did nothing D1, you were away for half of it and the other half you said a NAI thing and voted Robz, thats it. How is that scumhunting?

I voted for e at a crucial moment which was likely to cause reactions from a lot of different people.

Well did it cause reactions?  Summarize your thoughts there?  Do the, you know, actual legwork part of scumhunting?

[shraeye]

What scumhunting? You did nothing D1, you were away for half of it and the other half you said a NAI thing and voted Robz, thats it. How is that scumhunting?

I voted for e at a crucial moment which was likely to cause reactions from a lot of different people.

You're right. You turned it into a real wagon. Which means you're doing everything in your townmeta. Okay, I like this explanation.

Sounds like a good way to avoid getting lynched by going to the biggest wagon.

It's also a good way to do a lot of other things. And no, that's not good enough.

Aaaaand there goes my other argument. So I think Awaclus' town(y) now...

I'm really not sure how Awaclus' answers caused you to fold there.  They were valid points, and his answers seemed like they brushed them aside instead of addressing them.  Just "Weak suspicion" --> "weak answer" --> "oh, now my scumread is gone in fact you're towny".......

[MiX]

What scumhunting? You did nothing D1, you were away for half of it and the other half you said a NAI thing and voted Robz, thats it. How is that scumhunting?

I voted for e at a crucial moment which was likely to cause reactions from a lot of different people.

You're right. You turned it into a real wagon. Which means you're doing everything in your townmeta. Okay, I like this explanation.

Sounds like a good way to avoid getting lynched by going to the biggest wagon.

It's also a good way to do a lot of other things. And no, that's not good enough.

Aaaaand there goes my other argument. So I think Awaclus' town(y) now...

I'm really not sure how Awaclus' answers caused you to fold there.  They were valid points, and his answers seemed like they brushed them aside instead of addressing them.  Just "Weak suspicion" --> "weak answer" --> "oh, now my scumread is gone in fact you're towny".......

Where did you get the scumread from? Why did you assume that I had a scumread on Awaclus? Besides, I'm sure this is how town!Awaclus would answer, I just wanted to know what he thought he had done of scumhunting.

[raerae]

Because I have nothing better to do I checked whether Jimmmmm has gone on record on whether vigs should shoot N1. Here it is.

We have a Vig who as we know should not shoot until at least the mid-late game.

So, it should definitely be safe to assume both kills were scum-induced.

Thanks for running that down, I was curious but didn't know where to start looking.

[Awaclus]

Well did it cause reactions?  Summarize your thoughts there?  Do the, you know, actual legwork part of scumhunting?

Every townie can do that for themselves silently in their heads without posting about it and telling scum how to counterplay us.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Awaclus, what's my read on e.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

This isn't a trick question, it's more to make a point to MiX (and faust, who surely doesn't need it.)

[Awaclus]

I think MiX just demonstrated he doesn't need it either so why are we doing this?

[shraeye]

Well did it cause reactions?  Summarize your thoughts there?  Do the, you know, actual legwork part of scumhunting?

Every townie can do that for themselves silently in their heads without posting about it and telling scum how to counterplay us.

Yeah, but if your argument is "I was towny because I scumhunted; you can tell because I'm saying that I made thoughts in my head".....that's really really crappy evidence of towniness.

[Awaclus]

Well did it cause reactions?  Summarize your thoughts there?  Do the, you know, actual legwork part of scumhunting?

Every townie can do that for themselves silently in their heads without posting about it and telling scum how to counterplay us.

Yeah, but if your argument is "I was towny because I scumhunted; you can tell because I'm saying that I made thoughts in my head".....that's really really crappy evidence of towniness.

The evidence isn't the thoughts I had in my head because scum also has thoughts in their head, the evidence is voting for e to generate more info for everyone to draw conclusions from. That's the part that's actually hunting, the rest is just collecting the loot.