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Jeebus

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Road Network and timing
« on: January 23, 2019, 07:48:30 pm »
+3

If Alice gains a Haunted Castle, and Bob has bought Road Network, who chooses the order to resolve the two when-gain abilities? As far as I can understand from previous rulings, it's Alice who chooses.



The ruling I'm referring to is that optional abilities (currently this only includes Reactions) are resolved by the player making the choice. Other abilities are resolved by the player who triggered it. (Who resolves the abilities matters for determining the order to resolve them.)

This is why Reactions are resolved by the players who choose to use them, even when it's to an Attack played by another player.

So If Alice plays a Swamp Hag, and Bob buys a card, Bob triggered the Swamp Hag's when-buy ability, and since it's not optional for Alice, it's Bob who resolves it. This means that he gets to order it with other when-buy abilities.

Here it's Alice who triggers the abilites, by gaining the Haunted Castle. It's clear that Haunted Castle is resolved by Alice. The less clear one is Road Network. But since it's not an optional ability for Bob, it should be Alice who resolves it.

Donald X.

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Re: Road Network and timing
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2019, 08:21:24 pm »
+2

When two things happen to the same player at the same time, that player orders them. When they happen to different players at the same time, we go in turn order. So, no-one chooses; Haunted Castle is first.

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Jeebus

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Re: Road Network and timing
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2019, 09:07:30 pm »
0

My thought was that Road Network happens to Alice, since it triggered when she gained a Victory card.

You have ruled that when Alice buys Noble Brigand with Embargo token, she gets to choose which to resolve first, since Noble Brigand's "when you buy this" means that it happens to her. I assume it's the same with gaining Ill-Gotten Gains: "When you gain this" means it happens to her, so she can choose to use Watchtower before or after Bob gains a Curse. It happens to Alice even though the only thing that actually happens when she resolves it is that Bob gains a Curse.

So it's not the actual ability that decides who it happens to.

Road Network says "when another player gains a Victory card". "Another player" here is Alice. The only difference between this and Ill-Gotten Gains is that it says "another player" instead of "you". The actual ability is the same: Bob does something, Alice does nothing.

So is it different because it says "another player" instead of "you"?

Swamp Hag says "when another player buys a card". If Bob buys a card, he is the "another player". He resolves it since it's not optional.
Road Network: Alice gains a Victory Card, she is the "another player". So... she resolves it since it's not optional. Right?

What am I missing here?

dz

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Re: Road Network and timing
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2019, 09:28:32 pm »
0

My thought was that Road Network happens to Alice, since it triggered when she gained a Victory card.

You have ruled that when Alice buys Noble Brigand with Embargo token, she gets to choose which to resolve first, since Noble Brigand's "when you buy this" means that it happens to her. I assume it's the same with gaining Ill-Gotten Gains: "When you gain this" means it happens to her, so she can choose to use Watchtower before or after Bob gains a Curse. It happens to Alice even though the only thing that actually happens when she resolves it is that Bob gains a Curse.

So it's not the actual ability that decides who it happens to.

Road Network says "when another player gains a Victory card". "Another player" here is Alice. The only difference between this and Ill-Gotten Gains is that it says "another player" instead of "you". The actual ability is the same: Bob does something, Alice does nothing.

So is it different because it says "another player" instead of "you"?

Swamp Hag says "when another player buys a card". If Bob buys a card, he is the "another player". He resolves it since it's not optional.
Road Network: Alice gains a Victory Card, she is the "another player". So... she resolves it since it's not optional. Right?

What am I missing here?

I'm gonna guess that it's because Bob draws a card, and not Alice.

Alice's Swamp Hag triggers when Bob buys a card, making Bob gain the Curse.

Bob's Road Network triggers when Alice gains Haunted Castle, but Road Network itself does nothing to Alice; Road Network does something to Bob, so Bob resolves it.
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Jeebus

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Re: Road Network and timing
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2019, 09:32:21 pm »
0

I'm gonna guess that it's because Bob draws a card, and not Alice.

Alice's Swamp Hag triggers when Bob buys a card, making Bob gain the Curse.

Bob's Road Network triggers when Alice gains Haunted Castle, but Road Network itself does nothing to Alice; Road Network does something to Bob, so Bob resolves it.

Then what about Alice gaining an Ill-Gotten-Gains? Or Alice buying a Noble Brigand?

Jeebus

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Re: Road Network and timing
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2019, 09:34:53 pm »
0

Donald's earlier ruling:

For Embargo / Noble Brigand, two things happen when you buy a card. This creates the question, "does Noble Brigand count as happening to you or what," and my ruling is, yes, just the "when you" part by itself is enough to involve you in it.

The same should apply to gaining Ill-Gotten Gains.

Ingix

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Re: Road Network and timing
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2019, 04:32:35 am »
+1

I'm not aquainted with the history of all the rulings, but isn't the blatantly obvious difference between buying Noble Brigant and triggering your opponent's Road Network that the former involves an effect that belongs to you (you bought Noble Brigand), while the latter involves an effect that belongs to your opponent(s) (they bought the Road Network)?

But I agree with Jeebus that something is incosistent: Swamp Hag played and Road Network bought (by the same player) ought to work the same. If player X does something to trigger player Y's Swamp Hag in situation A, and later something to trigger Y's Road Network in situation B, the triggered abilities should belong to (and be ordered by) the same player. I don't particularly care at the moment if it should be X or Y.
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Donald X.

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Re: Road Network and timing
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2019, 09:47:51 am »
0

My thought was that Road Network happens to Alice, since it triggered when she gained a Victory card.

You have ruled that when Alice buys Noble Brigand with Embargo token, she gets to choose which to resolve first, since Noble Brigand's "when you buy this" means that it happens to her. I assume it's the same with gaining Ill-Gotten Gains: "When you gain this" means it happens to her, so she can choose to use Watchtower before or after Bob gains a Curse. It happens to Alice even though the only thing that actually happens when she resolves it is that Bob gains a Curse.

So it's not the actual ability that decides who it happens to.

Road Network says "when another player gains a Victory card". "Another player" here is Alice. The only difference between this and Ill-Gotten Gains is that it says "another player" instead of "you". The actual ability is the same: Bob does something, Alice does nothing.

So is it different because it says "another player" instead of "you"?

Swamp Hag says "when another player buys a card". If Bob buys a card, he is the "another player". He resolves it since it's not optional.
Road Network: Alice gains a Victory Card, she is the "another player". So... she resolves it since it's not optional. Right?

What am I missing here?
I am going to try to figure it out, in case that's different from whatever previous rulings.

Let's look at the rulebook.

Quote
When two things happen to different players at the same time, go in turn order, starting with the player whose turn it is. For example, when a player plays Witch, the other players gain Curses in turn order, which may matter if the Curses run out.

When two things happen to one player at the same time, that player picks the order to do them, even if some are mandatory and some are not. This can come up with expansions.
This talks about things happening. It makes it sound like all we care about is the effect. And that's backed up by the Witch example.

But we may have to order things that themselves need ordering. Let's say I have "When you buy a Silver, each other player gains a Curse" and "When you buy a Silver, each other player gains a Copper"; do they each gain a Curse and then a Copper, or do I pick which to do first and then they go around?

I think it has to be that somehow we first order those two things, Curses or Coppers first, and then resolve them and that hands out cards in turn order as normal. That's my ruling on that corner of this. When you've got "when x, do y," you first order that relative to other "when x," and then do all of one y, then all of the next y.

When we're ordering those two things, well we are ordering them by the trigger; the effect doesn't provide a way to order them. In this case it seems simple, it's "when you" so "you" pick an order. An ability like "When x, gain a Gold and the player to your left gains a Curse" also needs to be ordered by the trigger (and then just sequentially once resolving it, the Gold is first).

Let's say instead it's "When another player buys a Silver" for the Curse one. So now we have to order, "when another player buys a Silver" vs. "When you buy a Silver." That's the Haunted Castle / Road Network example of course.

Hmmm can we remove the players. Let's have a below-the-line ability, like "setup" but not using that term as we want it to be someone's turn and not have to rule that it's the first player's turn during setup because that's just besides the point here. "At the start of the first turn in a game using this, each player gains a Curse." And then another one of those for Coppers. Well the timing rule simply doesn't cover this case. If it came up with real cards though my ruling would be that the player whose turn it is orders them. I guess it actually comes up with setup rules, e.g. Young Witch vs. Black Market. You could resolve Black Market's setup first and have no cards left over for Young Witch. I feel like in the murky past I've ruled that you do Young Witch first. Which uh. I mean if it were a more common thing we would want a general rule and it would either have to be "the first player picks even though what's up with that" or "can't you all just agree somehow." It wouldn't be "consult this list of how to order setup abilities."

Another thing to poke at is the source of the ability. We can make the source be non-player-specific, like Duchess's ability. I mean that happens to someone, but it's no-one's card causing that. Or hey Landmarks. Since we won't necessarily have "who had this ability" to go by, it would be great not to ever go by it. Let's not. That's another ruling, we're going places.

The implication of the timing rules is that everything happens to players. That's not true, there's e.g. "put a token on the Temple pile." We have to either say "we're counting that as happening to the player told to do it" or "now here's the timing rule for things that don't happen to players." Well that timing rule is "the player whose turn it is orders them" and I even already have "between turns go by the most recent player to take a turn." Anyway I think what makes sense here is to go by the player told to make something happen. I think that's more suggested by the rules than "some rule not there at all" is. The rule not there at all applies only in cases where absolutely nothing else covers it, e.g. ordering setup rules. This isn't me changing my mind about Duchess above; we don't care that Duchess's rule is on a supply card, what matters is that it addresses someone gaining a Duchy.

So uh. Haunted Castle is happening to Alice. Road Network is happening to Bob. We go in turn order. Alice's gain triggered Road Network, but Bob is the one being told to do something. Haunted Castle is telling Alice to do something (which includes, having each other player be attacked).

I am open as always to arguments about how wrong I am, what I missed, and why it should be otherwise. I have put some time into it today and that's how it looks to me.

Embargo / Noble Brigand. That ruling sure seems compatible. I buy Noble Brigand, I order it vs. Embargo. I am being told to do two things.

Swamp Hag / Noble Brigand. I buy Noble Brigand, I order it vs. Swamp Hag.
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Jeebus

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Re: Road Network and timing
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2019, 12:09:08 pm »
0

I agree that the source of the ability can't be used. In addition to everything you said, you could play a card in the trash, it's not even your card.

When we're ordering those two things, well we are ordering them by the trigger; the effect doesn't provide a way to order them.

Yes, that's how I've been thinking about it to, based on the Noble Brigand / Embargo ruling - quoted above from another thread. But you don't seem to be following this principle when you conclude that Road Network is ordered by Bob.

when you = it's ordered by you
Then it should be:
when another player = it's ordered by another player
Again, to me this means Alice is ordering Road Network when she buys a Victory card.

Anyway I think what makes sense here is to go by the player told to make something happen.

Are you here changing your mind about going by the trigger?

Ok, let's look at "who's being told to do something" (the actual effect) rather than "who's causing it to happen" (the trigger). Again, this is NOT how it should work based on the previous ruling that "when you" by itself means it's happening to you:

Ill-Gotten Gains / Watchtower:
Alice buys IGG. IGG only tells Bob to do something, so in this case Alice has to use Watchtower first, then Bob gains a Curse.

Embargo / Noble Brigand: Alice buys NB. NB tells both Alice and Bob to do something, so then it's unclear who it's happening to. (Of course when we resolve it, it's Alice first, then Bob, but the question is ordering NB vs Embargo.)

Swamp Hag / Haggler: Alice buys a card. Both SW and Haggler tell Alice to do something, great.

Road Network / Haunted Castle: Alice buys HC. Road Network happens to Bob. But HC tells both Alice and Bob to do something, like Noble Brigand.

The way this could work if we want Noble Brigand and Haunted Castle to be ordered by Alice, is that since Alice is involved (she gets Treasures from NB, she gets Gold from HC), it's happening to her. But it also happens to Bob! NB happens first to Bob, then to Alice. HC happens first to Alice, then to Bob. Well... It's Alice's turn, but what if Alice gained HC on Bob's turn? So... it's Alice who triggered it in any case. We're back to looking at the trigger. So then the rule has to be something like, "if an ability happens to several players, it's ordered by the player who triggered it, otherwise it's ordered by the player it happens to". EDIT: I intended it differently than i phrased it. It's more like: "If an ability (also) happens to the player who triggered it, it's ordered by that player, otherwise it's ordered by the player it happens to."

Then I guess we don't need the additional rule about optional abilities, since those always only happen to the "correct" player. Well, unless there's a Reaction like, "When another player plays an Attack, you may discard this. If you do, each other player gains a Curse". Then we need that rule too, otherwise the Attacking player orders the Reaction, an impossibility.

EDIT: This new rule suggestion breaks down with more than 2 players though, like in your example of "When you buy a Silver, each other player gains a Curse" and the same for Copper. Since Alice is not involved at all, only Bob and Cathy, who chooses which one to do first?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 06:49:32 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Road Network and timing
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2019, 12:22:02 pm »
0

I'm not aquainted with the history of all the rulings, but isn't the blatantly obvious difference between buying Noble Brigant and triggering your opponent's Road Network that the former involves an effect that belongs to you (you bought Noble Brigand), while the latter involves an effect that belongs to your opponent(s) (they bought the Road Network)?

I don't think ownership can work (and Donald seems to agree). We would need to define that cube = ownership for Projects, since that's different than cards belonging to you. But then we have Duchess, Landmarks, cards in trash...
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 12:30:07 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Road Network and timing
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2019, 12:54:27 pm »
0

Maybe this example can distill the problem:

Alice has Inherited Embassy. Bob and Cathy have Road Network.

Alice gains an Estate. Three things trigger: Bob and Cathy gain a Silver (Embassy), Bob draws a card (Road Network), and Alice draws a card (Road Network). Neither of these effects involve Alice.

(1) We go by the triggering player - Alice. Then Alice orders all three effects.

(2) We go by the players it's actually happening to - Bob and Cathy. Then Bob draws a card before Cathy. The problem is that Bob and Cathy can't decide when Embassy should be resolved, since they are two people.

(New version, I deleted the old post.)
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 05:38:01 pm by Jeebus »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Road Network and timing
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2019, 01:58:54 pm »
+1

My thought was that Road Network happens to Alice, since it triggered when she gained a Victory card.

You have ruled that when Alice buys Noble Brigand with Embargo token, she gets to choose which to resolve first, since Noble Brigand's "when you buy this" means that it happens to her.

The way I see it (maybe Donald has said this already, haven't read the whole thread yet), is that it's not the "when you buy this" that is happening to Alice. It's the "each other player reveals..." that is happening to Alice. Even though the other players are the ones who end up having to do something, the "thing" that's "happening" is: "each other player reveals...". That that thing is happening to Alice, not to the other players.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Road Network and timing
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2019, 02:05:25 pm »
0

Ill-Gotten Gains / Watchtower: [/b]Alice buys IGG. IGG only tells Bob to do something, so in this case Alice has to use Watchtower first, then Bob gains a Curse.

A simpler example than my last post... I don't think IGG is telling Bob to do something. The something that's happening isn't "gain a curse". It's "each other player gains a curse". That something is happening to Alice. Alice is the one who is "each other player gains a curs"ing.

*Edit* I'm thinking of it like IGG actually says "when you gain this, resolve the ability 'each other player gains a curse'." With that wording, it's clearer that the person gaining IGG is the one being told to do something.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 02:07:54 pm by GendoIkari »
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Jeebus

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Re: Road Network and timing
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2019, 02:43:10 pm »
0

Yes, and I was actually already writing a post about that being a way to solve it. Abilities are ordered by who the effects happen to, and when you are told "each other player", that's an effect happening to you.

This would mean that it isn't exactly the "when you" in Noble Brigand that makes it happen to you.

It would make everything behave the way we expect it. We wouldn't even need the additional rule about optional abilities.

I think there might still be some difficulty in figuring out who the player is who is resolving "each other player" though. Hm...
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 02:53:15 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Road Network and timing
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2019, 03:08:06 pm »
0

This is how we want it to work. I indicate the player who orders it.

(1) When you do A, do B - you (Haggler)
(2) When you do A, do B, and each other player does C - you (Noble Brigand, Haunted Castle)
(3) When you do A, each other player does B - you (Ill-Gotten Gains)
(4) When another player does A, they do B - the other player (Swamp Hag)
(5) When another player does A, you do B - you (Road Network)
(6) When another player does A, you may do B - you (Moat)
(7) When a player does A, they do B - the player (Embargo, Duchess)

So we see that in every case except (2) and (3), it's the player who ends up doing something. But if we say that "each other player" is done by "you", as GendoIkari suggested, then it's also true for those two cases.

But where does "you" enter the picture in (3)? It's only in the trigger. To know who are doing "each other player", we need to look at the triggering player - unfortunately, because we ignore the triggering player otherwise, most obviously in (5) and (6). I mean, it's still perfectly obvious who is doing it, it just makes the rule harder to phrase.

This rule even works for this hypothetical Reaction:
(8) When another player does A, you may do B, and then each other player does C - you
But here we cannot look at the triggering player to figure out who does "each other player", because it actually says "you" here.

It does not suffice for this one though:
(9) When another player does A, you may do B, and then the other player does C - you
For this we would need to keep the rule about optional abilities. But this kind of thing would probably never exist, because it's directional.

Donald X.

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Re: Road Network and timing
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2019, 11:59:17 am »
+1

This is how we want it to work. I indicate the player who orders it.

(1) When you do A, do B - you (Haggler)
(2) When you do A, do B, and each other player does C - you (Noble Brigand, Haunted Castle)
(3) When you do A, each other player does B - you (Ill-Gotten Gains)
(4) When another player does A, they do B - the other player (Swamp Hag)
(5) When another player does A, you do B - you (Road Network)
(6) When another player does A, you may do B - you (Moat)
(7) When a player does A, they do B - the player (Embargo, Duchess)
Yes, mostly. The idea - as an interpretation of the rulebook rules - is, that the person being told to do something is the one it's "happening to." Sometimes what you are told to do is non-player-based, e.g. add a token to the Trade Route mat; sometimes it hits multiple players, like Ill-Gotten Gains.

It's not "the player who orders it," it's "the player it's happening to." And then that plus the timing rules orders it.

I wouldn't have a separate line for #6 - "you may" doesn't change anything here.

And you can add "do X" (player told to do X) and "set of players does X" (those players) - once we've ordered that Ill-Gotten Gains, we still then have an order to handing out the Curses.
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Jeebus

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Re: Road Network and timing
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2019, 12:57:01 pm »
0

Yeah, "the player who orders it" was not a good term to describe it.

Yes, (5) and (6) er effectively the same, but I included it just to clarify that these abilities (Reactions) also work like this.

I see that you kind of already said this in your previous post. The two examples with "When you buy a Silver, each other player..." describe how we have to look at the triggering player to figure out who it's happening to.* And in the other cases we go by who the effect is happening to.

*which works in those examples (and all current cards!), but not in my hypothetical (8). More generally I would therefore say it's better to say that it's the player being addressed, not necessarily the triggering player.

Donald X.

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Re: Road Network and timing
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2019, 07:41:35 am »
+1

*which works in those examples (and all current cards!), but not in my hypothetical (8). More generally I would therefore say it's better to say that it's the player being addressed, not necessarily the triggering player.
The player being addressed is "who is this happening to."
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