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Author Topic: Which cards let you choose to gain nothing?  (Read 2491 times)

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Jeebus

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Which cards let you choose to gain nothing?
« on: January 20, 2019, 09:31:57 pm »
+1

Just asking for some help identifying cards. Which cards let you choose to gain a card that you can't gain?

I'm not talking about Torturer when there are no Curses left. I mean cards that give you a choice of cards.

So far I have identified:

Smugglers - you can choose a card your opponent gained even though it's not available to gain.
Pilgrimage - you can choose a card in play even though it's not available to gain.
Changeling - you can choose a card in play even though it's not available to gain.

Are there any others?

crj

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Re: Which cards let you choose to gain nothing?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2019, 09:43:15 pm »
+1

I'm not quite clear what distinction you're making; does Disciple count?
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Jeebus

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Re: Which cards let you choose to gain nothing?
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2019, 10:17:23 pm »
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I'm not quite clear what distinction you're making; does Disciple count?

Your question made me realize that I already have this list of cards that gain a copy: Ambassador, Changeling, Disciple, Duplicate, Jester, Messenger, Mint, Pilgrimage, Smugglers, Talisman

I guess all of those, except Messenger and Talisman, can try to gain a copy of a card that isn't available. I mean, you could even call Duplicate when you gain a Madman.

What I was after though, was cards that give you a choice of several cards to gain, and then might fail to gain a copy. And from this list there are only the three I mentioned. So I got my answer, I think. Thanks!

Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Which cards let you choose to gain nothing?
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2019, 10:19:03 am »
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Smugglers - you can choose a card your opponent gained even though it's not available to gain.

Is this actually correct though? This isn't my impression of how "gain a card fulfilling X" works from playing online. If this is true, then can you Remodel a Curse into a Curse when all the Curses are out and then not have to gain a Copper or Estate? I didn't think you could do that.
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Jeebus

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Re: Which cards let you choose to gain nothing?
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2019, 10:26:20 am »
+1

Smugglers - you can choose a card your opponent gained even though it's not available to gain.

Is this actually correct though? This isn't my impression of how "gain a card fulfilling X" works from playing online. If this is true, then can you Remodel a Curse into a Curse when all the Curses are out and then not have to gain a Copper or Estate? I didn't think you could do that.

No, that's not how gaining works when you are just told to gain a card. Then your choices are the cards in the supply (of a certain cost/type). That's why I'm saying that only these three cards work like this.

Smugglers has been discussed several times. It's hard to parse, but the meaning is that the choices you have are the cards your opponent gained. Then you gain your choice, if possible.

crj

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Re: Which cards let you choose to gain nothing?
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2019, 11:55:12 am »
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What I was after though, was cards that give you a choice of several cards to gain, and then might fail to gain a copy.
Hunting Grounds?

Or are you looking for specifically the combination of being given a choice of cards and trying to copy one of them?
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Jeebus

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Re: Which cards let you choose to gain nothing?
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2019, 12:35:09 pm »
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What I was after though, was cards that give you a choice of several cards to gain, and then might fail to gain a copy.
Hunting Grounds?

Or are you looking for specifically the combination of being given a choice of cards and trying to copy one of them?

Yeah, I think that must be the definition of what I was looking for. Hunting Grounds doesn't really give you a choice of cards anyway. It gives you two choices, you can choose either. Both happen to be gaining a specific cards or cards.

LittleFish

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Re: Which cards let you choose to gain nothing?
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2019, 02:39:17 pm »
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You could calll duplicate on a knight. You could only gain a knight with the same name, and there is none others.
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Jeebus

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Re: Which cards let you choose to gain nothing?
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2019, 03:36:52 pm »
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You could calll duplicate on a knight. You could only gain a knight with the same name, and there is none others.

I refer you to this post.

Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Which cards let you choose to gain nothing?
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2019, 04:28:11 pm »
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Smugglers - you can choose a card your opponent gained even though it's not available to gain.

Is this actually correct though? This isn't my impression of how "gain a card fulfilling X" works from playing online. If this is true, then can you Remodel a Curse into a Curse when all the Curses are out and then not have to gain a Copper or Estate? I didn't think you could do that.

No, that's not how gaining works when you are just told to gain a card. Then your choices are the cards in the supply (of a certain cost/type). That's why I'm saying that only these three cards work like this.

Smugglers has been discussed several times. It's hard to parse, but the meaning is that the choices you have are the cards your opponent gained. Then you gain your choice, if possible.

The text of Workshop:
Gain a card costing up to $4.

The text of Smugglers:
Gain a copy of a card costing up to $6 that the player to your right gained on their last turn.

With Workshop, you can't choose to gain a smithy if that pile is empty. With Smugglers, you can (if your opponent gained one last turn).

Is the difference because Smugglers says "a copy of a card" instead of just "a card"? What if the text of Smugglers were instead:

Gain a card that is a copy of a card costing up to $6 that the player to your right gained on their last turn.

In this case, Smugglers and Workshop would both have the same format of "gain a card" followed by constraints on what card you can gain. I'm guessing you can't choose an empty pile with Workshop because "gain a card" forces you to look at the supply first. So if Smugglers had the revised wording it would work the same way? This seems a bit odd to me, since you could argue that the "card that is" part is not explicitly stated in the actual card but still implied.
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Jeebus

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Re: Which cards let you choose to gain nothing?
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2019, 05:29:46 pm »
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Is the difference because Smugglers says "a copy of a card" instead of just "a card"? What if the text of Smugglers were instead:

Gain a card that is a copy of a card costing up to $6 that the player to your right gained on their last turn.

I'm pretty sure that wouldn't make a difference. I refer you to this thread. Maybe that will address your doubts. Otherwise, maybe it's more practical to continue the Smugglers discussion there? (Not trying to to be rude.)

Ingix

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Re: Which cards let you choose to gain nothing?
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2019, 05:58:18 am »
+1

If you consider Pilgrimmage, I don't understand why you think Mint is different. Each one lets's you select a card from a certain zone and allows you to gain a copy of it, which may not be possible. What is the difference between buying Pilgrimmage with Diadem and any number of Heirlooms in play, or playing Mint and those same Diadem and Heirlooms in hand?  The 3 cards on Pilgrimmage can't really be the difference, because it doesn't add anything, just makes the effect 3 times as big.
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Jeebus

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Re: Which cards let you choose to gain nothing?
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2019, 12:21:21 pm »
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If you consider Pilgrimmage, I don't understand why you think Mint is different. Each one lets's you select a card from a certain zone and allows you to gain a copy of it, which may not be possible. What is the difference between buying Pilgrimmage with Diadem and any number of Heirlooms in play, or playing Mint and those same Diadem and Heirlooms in hand?  The 3 cards on Pilgrimmage can't really be the difference, because it doesn't add anything, just makes the effect 3 times as big.

Excellent point.

I was vaguely trying to identify cards that let you gain a card of choice from Supply but where you can actually choose a card not in Supply - something that can create confusion and therefore warrants further explanation.

I realize that Smugglers and Changeling are the only cards that qualify. The reason is that they say "gain a copy..." as their first instruction (and "gain a copy" = "gain a copy from supply"). Pilgrimage is different, since the first instruction is "choose cards you have in play". Mint too, since its first instruction is "reveal a card from your hand".

Technically of course, all these cards function the same way: first you choose from a set of cards that is not Supply, then you gain a copy of your choice from the Supply. Smugglers and Changeling are different because the initial choice is implied. Workshop and friends also have this initial implied choice, but the choice is among cards in Supply.

Here, then, is the conclusion: Smugglers and Changeling uniquely give you an unstated choice from a set of cards that is not Supply.

gain a card costing $x = choose a card from Supply costing $x, and gain it from Supply
gain a copy of a card from set x = choose a card from set x, and gain a copy of it from Supply
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 12:32:37 pm by Jeebus »
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dbclick

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Re: Which cards let you choose to gain nothing?
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2019, 10:58:05 am »
+2

I always though Smugglers and Changeling should have a "name a card" clause to make it clear you don't have to select a card that is available in the Supply.

Smugglers: Name a card costing up to $6 that the player to your right gained on their last turn. Gain a copy of it.

Changeling: Trash this. Name a card you have in play. Gain a copy of it. ----
In games using this, when you gain a card costing $3 or more, you may exchange it for a Changeling.
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