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Author Topic: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing  (Read 477 times)

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DooWopDJ

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Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« on: January 16, 2019, 10:29:44 pm »
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I would like to confirm to rules question about Caravan Guard
1.  If Caravan Guard is 'In Play' (as a Duration) and another player plays an Attack card, the Caravan Guard cannot 'React' because it cannot you cannot 'play it from your hand'.
My guess is you do not get the Reaction portion of the card

2. If I play the Caravan Guard as a Reaction I am get the "+1 Action' portion of the card when my next turn happens?
My guess I would have "+2 Actions" (my original "+1 Action" (from the ABC) and the "+1 Action from the Caravan Guard being put into play from my playing it as a Reaction.
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Donald X.

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Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2019, 10:46:07 pm »
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1) You cannot play Caravan Guard from your hand if it isn't in your hand.

2) If you play it via the Reaction ability, you get the +1 Action right then, when you play it in response to someone's attack, and not any later. Later you get nothing. He repeated. That +1 Action is thus normally useless.
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Awaclus

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Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2019, 10:56:27 pm »
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That +1 Action is thus normally useless.

>normally
Is there an edge case where it matters?
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chipperMDW

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Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2019, 11:47:24 pm »
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The card actually says +1 Action has no effect if it's not your turn. If that's true, you don't even get the normally useless action.
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Donald X.

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Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2019, 08:34:56 am »
+1

>normally
Is there an edge case where it matters?
I don't think anything lets you get value from +1 Action when it's not your turn. If you put Training on Caravan Guard, the +$1 when it's not your turn can cancel out a -$1 token from Bridge Troll.
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Chris is me

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Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2019, 08:38:27 am »
+1

The card actually says +1 Action has no effect if it's not your turn. If that's true, you don't even get the normally useless action.

You can get something that has no effect.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2019, 10:33:40 am »
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You can get something that has no effect.
Sure, but the card doesn't say you get an action that can't be used for anything; it says that "+1 Action" has no effect, where that instruction usually has the effect of giving you an action.

Or maybe you were joking and I missed the joke.
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Chris is me

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Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2019, 10:39:23 am »
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You can get something that has no effect.
Sure, but the card doesn't say you get an action that can't be used for anything; it says that "+1 Action" has no effect, where that instruction usually has the effect of giving you an action.

Or maybe you were joking and I missed the joke.

At the risk of diving deeper down a semantic rabbit hole, "X has no effect" and "the effect of X is nothing" are synonymous. The statement in parentheses is clarifying that the effect does nothing.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2019, 10:40:05 am »
+1

You can get something that has no effect.
Sure, but the card doesn't say you get an action that can't be used for anything; it says that "+1 Action" has no effect, where that instruction usually has the effect of giving you an action.

Or maybe you were joking and I missed the joke.

I think the intention behind "(+1 Action has no effect if it's not your turn)[/i]" is to say "The extra action cannot be used if it's not your turn". But indeed, as worded, it does seem to literally say that you don't actually get the +1 Action.

Fortunately, there isn't anything in the game that can make this matter. There could be some day, though. The simplest thing I could think of is if there were a -1 Action penalty token, like the -1 Card and - tokens. In this case, you would expect normally that playing Caravan Guard when it isn't your turn would remove the -1 Action token, but due to the italicized wording, it's reasonable to interpret it that you wouldn't.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2019, 10:41:35 am »
+3

You can get something that has no effect.
Sure, but the card doesn't say you get an action that can't be used for anything; it says that "+1 Action" has no effect, where that instruction usually has the effect of giving you an action.

Or maybe you were joking and I missed the joke.

At the risk of diving deeper down a semantic rabbit hole, "X has no effect" and "the effect of X is nothing" are synonymous. The statement in parentheses is clarifying that the effect does nothing.

I think you're misreading Chipper. The question isn't whether there's a difference between "X has no effect" and "the effect of X is nothing". The question is whether you literally do still get +1 Action or not. Does the text "+1 Action" have no effect? Or does the action sitting around in your action bank have no effect?
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crj

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Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2019, 10:49:39 am »
+3

To me, it's clear that "+1 Action has no effect" means the text "+1 Action" has no effect, a similar modification to that achieved by Enchantress. "The action you get from +1 Action has no effect" means something different.

The significance of the text being in parenthetic italics is less clear.

Though this is all academic if there's no possible way to make use of that action anyway. And I'm currently stuck trying to figure out a way to play Diadem when it's not your turn...
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chipperMDW

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Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2019, 11:43:43 am »
+1

At the risk of diving deeper down a semantic rabbit hole, "X has no effect" and "the effect of X is nothing" are synonymous.
Those are synonymous, but those aren't the two things we're talking about. We're talking about "the action has no effect" vs. "the act of giving you an action has no effect." The former means off-turn-CG gives you 1 action, and that action has no effect (whatever that might mean); the latter means off-turn-CG gives you 0 actions.
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Awaclus

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Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2019, 12:21:52 pm »
+1

The former means off-turn-CG gives you 1 action, and that action has no effect (whatever that might mean);

It means it doesn't let you play Actions on your opponent's turn. Which, as it turns out, is what it means.

Quote
Playing this during another player's turn is similar to playing it during your own turn - you put Caravan Guard into play, get +1 Card and +1 Action, and will get + at the start of your next turn - the very next turn you take. However getting +1 Action during someone else's turn does not do anything for you; it does not let you play other Action cards during that player’s turn.

t. rules
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:23:45 pm by Awaclus »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2019, 12:43:00 pm »
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That +1 Action is thus normally useless.

>normally
Is there an edge case where it matters?
Not as things stand, but if there were ever a Dominion situation where an Attack could be played on another player's turn, it would.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2019, 12:51:08 pm »
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That +1 Action is thus normally useless.

>normally
Is there an edge case where it matters?
Not as things stand, but if there were ever a Dominion situation where an Attack could be played on another player's turn, it would.

Why? If I have Caravan Guard in hand, on my turn, and someone else plays an attack during my turn, the text in italics doesn't apply at all. It says +1 action has no effect if it's not your turn. It doesn't say it has no effect if it's being used as a reaction.
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Jeebus

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Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2019, 01:02:34 pm »
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To me, it's clear that "+1 Action has no effect" means the text "+1 Action" has no effect, a similar modification to that achieved by Enchantress. "The action you get from +1 Action has no effect" means something different.

It's clear that it means that you can't use Actions from your Action pool when it's not your turn. Indeed Donald has confirmed this in his reply in this thread, stating that you do indeed get the +1 Action. Plus, as Awaclus quoted, the actual rules say this. The reason it says (somewhat misleadingly for the casual observer) "+1 Action" is most likely to differentiate between Actions in your Action pool and Action cards.

If there ever were a -1 Action penalty token, +1 Action should remove it when it's not your turn. It would be very inconsistent if you can get +$ when it's not your turn but not +Actions.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 01:06:48 pm by Jeebus »
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crj

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Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2019, 01:03:47 pm »
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Maybe the most plausible way it could matter is if we ever got a card using a Patron-like mechanic which said something like "When something causes you to reveal this, you may convert any number of unused Actions into Villagers".
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DooWopDJ

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Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2019, 01:33:28 pm »
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The former means off-turn-CG gives you 1 action, and that action has no effect (whatever that might mean);

It means it doesn't let you play Actions on your opponent's turn. Which, as it turns out, is what it means.

Quote
Playing this during another player's turn is similar to playing it during your own turn - you put Caravan Guard into play, get +1 Card and +1 Action, and will get + at the start of your next turn - the very next turn you take. However getting +1 Action during someone else's turn does not do anything for you; it does not let you play other Action cards during that player’s turn.

t. rules

The part that is 'confusing' to me is the

"... get ... +1 Action, ... the very next turn you take ..."  It makes it sound like you get ANOTHER "+1 Action" on top of your default ABC "+1 Action" on the very next turn you take (like an unspent +1 Villager token on your mat.. it is waiting for you to 'use' ... on 'the very next turn you take'.  It seems opposite of the fact that you get you use the +1 Coin on your next turn, but you cannot use the +1 Action?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2019, 01:55:11 pm »
+3

The former means off-turn-CG gives you 1 action, and that action has no effect (whatever that might mean);

It means it doesn't let you play Actions on your opponent's turn. Which, as it turns out, is what it means.

Quote
Playing this during another player's turn is similar to playing it during your own turn - you put Caravan Guard into play, get +1 Card and +1 Action, and will get + at the start of your next turn - the very next turn you take. However getting +1 Action during someone else's turn does not do anything for you; it does not let you play other Action cards during that player’s turn.

t. rules

The part that is 'confusing' to me is the

"... get ... +1 Action, ... the very next turn you take ..."  It makes it sound like you get ANOTHER "+1 Action" on top of your default ABC "+1 Action" on the very next turn you take (like an unspent +1 Villager token on your mat.. it is waiting for you to 'use' ... on 'the very next turn you take'.  It seems opposite of the fact that you get you use the +1 Coin on your next turn, but you cannot use the +1 Action?

You're grouping the wrong words together; missing where the word "will" comes in the sentence.

It's "(get +1 Card and +1 Action) and (will get + at the start of your next turn - the very next turn you take.)"

It is not "(get +1 Card and +1 Action and will get +) (at the start of your next turn - the very next turn you take.)"

The "will get ... at the start of your next turn" is only referring to the +. This is exactly the same as playing a Caravan normally. When you play it normally, you get +1 Card and +1 Action right now, and you get + at the start of your next turn. You don't get all 3 at the start of your next turn.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 01:56:27 pm by GendoIkari »
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chipperMDW

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Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2019, 01:56:51 pm »
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Quote
Playing this during another player's turn is similar to playing it during your own turn - you put Caravan Guard into play, get +1 Card and +1 Action, and will get + at the start of your next turn - the very next turn you take. However getting +1 Action during someone else's turn does not do anything for you; it does not let you play other Action cards during that player’s turn.

t. rules

The part that is 'confusing' to me is the

"... get ... +1 Action, ... the very next turn you take ..."  It makes it sound like you get ANOTHER "+1 Action" on top of your default ABC "+1 Action" on the very next turn you take (like an unspent +1 Villager token on your mat.. it is waiting for you to 'use' ... on 'the very next turn you take'.  It seems opposite of the fact that you get you use the +1 Coin on your next turn, but you cannot use the +1 Action?

Those instructions are a list of three items.
  • put Caravan Guard into play
  • get +1 Card and +1 Action
  • will get +$1 at the start of your next turn - the very next turn you take

The part about "next turn" is a part of the third item; it is not intended to apply to the entire list.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2019, 02:21:33 pm »
+2

As is the case with most Dominion rules questions*, simply literally following the wording on the card is a simpler explanation than going by the detailed wording in the FAQ. Caravan Guard says you can play the card from your hand, so that's it. You play it from your hand. Playing it at that time is exactly like playing it normally. You play the card; you follow the instructions on the card. Don't add extra complexity by wondering if maybe for some reason playing the card at that time is different than playing any other card at any other time.



*Yeah, not including all those recent threads about Inheritance and BoM and Capitalism.
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Donald X.

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Re: Caravan Guard - Reaction and +1 Action Timing
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2019, 07:31:18 pm »
+4

The card actually says +1 Action has no effect if it's not your turn. If that's true, you don't even get the normally useless action.
Caravan Guard is trying to tell you that you can't use the action-(not-action-card), not that you don't get it.

Currently everything about this is moot, and long may it stay that way.
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