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Author Topic: Innovation and Haggler  (Read 797 times)

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majiponi

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Innovation and Haggler
« on: January 11, 2019, 09:52:50 pm »
+2

I bought Innovation.

While a Haggler is in play, I bought Province. I gained and set aside another Haggler. I played it.

Do I gain another card cheaper than Province?
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Jeebus

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Re: Innovation and Haggler
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2019, 10:15:23 pm »
0

I actually just discovered this myself. I started this thread to address this question: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19414.0

I asked about Groundskeeper, which triggers on when-gain, but if the answer is "yes" to that question, then it's also "yes" to gaining Haggler, Goons or Merchant Guild from buying another card. I already tried it with Haggler (your exact example) online, and it works.

You could for instance play Charm, buy a Gold, gain a Goons and play it, and get 1 VP token for buying Gold.

The more I think about, the more I think this is correct.

EDIT: Also with Talisman and Hoard (played via Black Market or Storyteller)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 01:09:06 pm by Jeebus »
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Donald X.

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Re: Innovation and Haggler
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2019, 03:27:18 am »
+1

I bought Innovation.

While a Haggler is in play, I bought Province. I gained and set aside another Haggler. I played it.

Do I gain another card cheaper than Province?
Yes.

When you're in the window for resolving effects that trigger on a particular thing, new things that show up also work. This goes back to Secret Chamber / Moat - I play Militia, you use Secret Chamber, you get Moat from it, you use the Moat on the Militia.
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SSLY

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Re: Innovation and Haggler
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2019, 10:05:08 am »
+1

Among those exotic things, my concern is Charm. It can set up a when-buy during a buy window, but “the next time when you buy a card”, I assume, doesn’t mean the window, can’t apply to (retrospectively I dare to say), the next time is the next window. The situation is: You buy Duchy with a Haggler, gain Black Market, play it by Innovation, so that you can play a Charm to set up the ability—and yet you can’t gain a card costing 5 other than Duchy. Right?
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Ingix

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Re: Innovation and Haggler
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2019, 10:43:09 am »
0

Good question. The "next time" formulation makes it tricky, but I'd say that if you actually buy a card from the Black Market it would apply to that buy. If you don't, it would be applicable to the Duchy buy, so allowing you to gain another $5 cost card.
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crj

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Re: Innovation and Haggler
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2019, 11:34:35 am »
0

I assume it's just a slightly colloquial way of saying "once only: when you buy a card..." and applies immediately if it can.
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Jeebus

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Re: Innovation and Haggler
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2019, 06:48:15 pm »
+2

I would think "the next time you buy" can't be the when-buy window you're already in. Compare to any card saying "next turn". You are in a turn already when you resolve the card, but that turn is not your "next" one. The meaning is "the next turn after the one you're already in".

Edit: A practical example: I play an Archive at the start of my turn (via Piazza). I take a card "now and at the start of my next two turns." Do I take two cards now? I don't think so.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 06:52:31 pm by Jeebus »
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crj

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Re: Innovation and Haggler
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2019, 06:55:35 pm »
0

I play an Archive at the start of my turn (via Piazza).
Interesting. I'd quite like to see an official ruling on that one, too!
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Donald X.

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Re: Innovation and Haggler
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2019, 06:58:00 pm »
+1

Among those exotic things, my concern is Charm. It can set up a when-buy during a buy window, but “the next time when you buy a card”, I assume, doesn’t mean the window, can’t apply to (retrospectively I dare to say), the next time is the next window. The situation is: You buy Duchy with a Haggler, gain Black Market, play it by Innovation, so that you can play a Charm to set up the ability—and yet you can’t gain a card costing 5 other than Duchy. Right?
"The next time you buy a card this turn" applies to the next card you buy, not any card you previously bought, or any card you're currently resolving when-buy stuff for.
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Donald X.

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Re: Innovation and Haggler
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2019, 06:58:41 pm »
+1

I play an Archive at the start of my turn (via Piazza).
Interesting. I'd quite like to see an official ruling on that one, too!
The next two turns are officially the next two turns. They are not the current turn.
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Jeebus

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Re: Innovation and Haggler
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2019, 12:48:47 pm »
0

As reported, this works online with gaining Haggler, but it does not work with gaining Merchant Guild, Hoard or Talisman. I assume it doesn't work with Goons either.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 01:08:42 pm by Jeebus »
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Dwhit

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Re: Innovation and Haggler
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2019, 01:46:14 pm »
0

I bought Innovation.

While a Haggler is in play, I bought Province. I gained and set aside another Haggler. I played it.

Do I gain another card cheaper than Province?
Yes.

When you're in the window for resolving effects that trigger on a particular thing, new things that show up also work. This goes back to Secret Chamber / Moat - I play Militia, you use Secret Chamber, you get Moat from it, you use the Moat on the Militia.

The part I don't follow is hagglers text says "while this is in play when you gain a card" how can the it be in play before the province is gained?

I can kind of follow the secret chamber most reasoning, but I still struggle with it.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Innovation and Haggler
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2019, 01:57:20 pm »
0

I bought Innovation.

While a Haggler is in play, I bought Province. I gained and set aside another Haggler. I played it.

Do I gain another card cheaper than Province?
Yes.

When you're in the window for resolving effects that trigger on a particular thing, new things that show up also work. This goes back to Secret Chamber / Moat - I play Militia, you use Secret Chamber, you get Moat from it, you use the Moat on the Militia.

The part I don't follow is hagglers text says "while this is in play when you gain a card" how can the it be in play before the province is gained?

I can kind of follow the secret chamber most reasoning, but I still struggle with it.

It's very similar to playing a Guide at the start of your turn with Summon or Ghost. Even though Guide wasn't on your Tavern mat when your turn began, until there's nothing left you want to or can do that's part of "at the start of your turn"; it is still considered to be during the "at the start of your turn" window. So you can call that Guide right away.

In this case, until there's nothing left you want to or can do that's part of "when you gain a card", you are still considered to be during the "when you gain a card" window.

Or, it's similar to the MTG rules... any time something happens, the game checks to see if the game state matches any trigger conditions. It continues to make this check until all triggered abilities are dealt with. So in both MTG and Dominion, you gain a card, and then game asks "does anything happen because you gained a card?" If no, you are done. If yes, you deal with that thing, but then the game asks does anything else happen because you gained a card?" the game keeps asking this until it gets a "no". And during one of the times that it asks, it gets the answer "yes, Haggler is in play, and it says that it does something when you gain a card while it is in play".
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Jeebus

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Re: Innovation and Haggler
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2019, 02:11:07 pm »
+1

To add to what GendoIkari replied, maybe it helps if you realize that there's a comma that you missed: "While this is in play, when you buy a card". The meaning is not what you assumed, that Haggler has to be in play when you buy the card. If so, it would not trigger. Instead, the meaning is that it triggers "when you buy a card", as long as it's in play. It's like it has two conditions to trigger: It has to be in play, and you have to be in the "when you buy a card" window.

Ingix

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Re: Innovation and Haggler
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2019, 09:45:00 am »
0

@Jeebus: It takes IMO a very strong sense of "knowing what should happen" to argue the way you do *from the card text*. Donald X. has clarified the rules in another post that it is as you described (even stronger in the case of the 'coming and going in a heartbeat' Merchant's Guild), that still doesn't bridge the gap between text and the way it 'really works'.

What has unfortunately happened is that the "corner case" of revealing Reactions from hand has required the introduction of a 'window of opportunities' (never AFAIK in the actual rules) for all triggered effects. The fact that those rulings are uphelp (which is consistent, of course) does not diminish the fact that the wording is still hihgly misleading on them, like in this case. While arguments have been made that "beginning of turn" is a period of time instead of a point in time, this breaks down for other cases like this when buying is involved.

So you are correct in describing how the card works, but deriving that from the card text also is nigh impossible.
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Jeebus

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Re: Innovation and Haggler
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2019, 10:39:28 am »
0

Sure, i was not trying to say that "you should have gotten it from the text", even though maybe it sounded that way. I just meant that without the comma it would be impossible to interpret it in any other way than opposite of the actual ruling. (I had already realized that the comma is the only thing that helps in understanding it.) I was trying to explain it in a way that could make sense from the text, to help understand how it can be interpreted that way. I wouldn't say that the wording is highly misleading, but I agree that it's impossible to know which way to interpret it.

The fact that new things can trigger in the "trigger window" is not stated as such as a rule, it is only inferred from card descriptions, like the famous Secret Chamber/Moat explanation. (This is also the case with several other rules, which is one reason I started making my rules document.) But the more general rule about a "period of time" is actually stated, not just for the beginning-of-turn. ("When two things happen to one player at the same time, that player picks the order to do them.")

Ingix

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Re: Innovation and Haggler
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2019, 04:17:01 am »
0

The argument I have against the 'naturalness' of the 'period of time'-ruling is that there could be a conceptual difference between the time something triggers ("When you buy...", "At start of your turn...") and the time those triggers are handled. The handling obviously needs to be serialized, but IMO nothing prevents the trigger time to be exactly one point. But of course it is a moot point, it just so happens that your numerous new cases with Innovation, coupled with "While this is in play" effects, strike me as really 'forced'. But I guess everybody has different interactions that they think are natural or not.
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Jeebus

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Re: Innovation and Haggler
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2019, 01:01:14 pm »
0

The argument I have against the 'naturalness' of the 'period of time'-ruling is that there could be a conceptual difference between the time something triggers ("When you buy...", "At start of your turn...") and the time those triggers are handled. The handling obviously needs to be serialized, but IMO nothing prevents the trigger time to be exactly one point. But of course it is a moot point, it just so happens that your numerous new cases with Innovation, coupled with "While this is in play" effects, strike me as really 'forced'. But I guess everybody has different interactions that they think are natural or not.

Yes, the trigger time could have been one point. This would mean that nothing more can trigger in the "window". It would mean that if you Secret Chamber into a Moat, you can't reveal the Moat. Or alternatively, it could be a special rule for only Reactions that they can trigger in the "window" - so you could use Reactions drawn by Secret Chamber, Diplomat or Caravan Guard (and Market Squares drawn by a trashed Cultist, and also some Watchtower gaining stuff). I guess Donald didn't think about that option or didn't think it was a good idea for Reactions to function differently than other triggered abilities.

When it comes to Innovation, I think it's more of a case of it feeling weird because it allows you to play a card in the "window", something that hasn't been possible before (with the exception of Caravan Guard). However, you're right that when this is coupled with "while this is in play" abilities, it does open up a question that could be interpreted either way. Of course the issue is with those cards, not Innovation. Imagine a card, Insta-Goons: "+$1 / When you buy a card, you may play this from your hand. / While this is in play, when you buy a card, +1 VP."
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 01:02:59 pm by Jeebus »
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LittleFish

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Re: Innovation and Haggler
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2019, 04:22:16 pm »
0

As reported, this works online with gaining Haggler, but it does not work with gaining Merchant Guild, Hoard or Talisman. I assume it doesn't work with Goons either.
It would never work with Talisman because innovation only plays actions
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Jeebus

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Re: Innovation and Haggler
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2019, 04:34:57 pm »
0

As reported, this works online with gaining Haggler, but it does not work with gaining Merchant Guild, Hoard or Talisman. I assume it doesn't work with Goons either.
It would never work with Talisman because innovation only plays actions

You gain Storyteller or Black Market, playing it, then playing Talisman (or Hoard) from your hand. I tried hinting this earlier in the thread.

Ingix

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Re: Innovation and Haggler
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2019, 04:06:33 am »
+1

Yes, the trigger time could have been one point. This would mean that nothing more can trigger in the "window". It would mean that if you Secret Chamber into a Moat, you can't reveal the Moat.

Again, let me stress for everbody that this is a moot point and 'alternate reality' I'm discussing here. It's accepted that if you use Lurker to trash a Hunting Grounds from the suplly into the trash, it's ability triggers. Now I'm claiming that in my model, when a player plays an attack, every Moat and Secret Chamber triggers. The one in your hand, the one in my hand, the ones in the supply, the trash and the decks. That means, if you Secret Chamber into a Moat, it has triggered and you can reveal it from your hand. The fact that all the other Moats triggered is generally irrelevant, as you cannot do the trigger effect of revealing it from your hand.

And if you think about the above Lurker/Hunting Grounds example, where the Hunting Grounds triggered in the supply pile, I don't see this model as anything totally new.

It wouldn't change much, like the Ghost playing Ratcatcher would still give you an immediately usable Ratcatcher (it triggered at start of turn in the set aside zone). The thing it would not allow are those "While this is in play"-triggers: If you gain an Estate-Gardener and play it immediately with Innovation, it doesn't trigger on itself, because it wasn't in play when it was gained.

Again, this is an alternate world and not how it actually works (to make sure nobody misunderstands this).
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 04:08:45 am by Ingix »
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Jeebus

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Re: Innovation and Haggler
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2019, 02:41:02 pm »
0

Well, actually your description is how Dominion is supposed to work, as described by Donald before. All below-the-line abilities potentially trigger all the time, which is why they either have to have their scope defined ("while this is in play") or be restricted by when they can be resolved ("reveal this from your hand"). Above-the-line abilities are limited by their implied scope "when you play this", Events imply "when you buy this", Landmarks have unlimited scope, etc.

But, the difference is the model of the "triggering window":

Model 1: Some things trigger, and others might trigger while we're in the window.
Model 2: The one you describe: Everything triggers at the same time and never again.

Dominion is apparently using model 1. But it's not only "while this is in play" abilities that would be affected by adopting model 2. Ghost playing Ratcatcher would indeed work the same, but I don't think Ghost playing Hireling or Prince would, since those didn't trigger before they were played by Ghost. I can't find any other differences though.

So... let's use Groundskeeper as an example of a "while this is in play" ability.

When I'm thinking more about it, it seems like in order for it to work according to the ruling, it's equivalent to "when you gain a Victory card, if this is in play". I mean, I can't find any difference between how this would work and how Groundskeeper is supposed to work. In that case it's more like Basilica than Guildhall.

Basilica - When you buy an Action card, if you have $2 or more left...
Guildhall - When you gain a Treasure...


Only the underlined phrase is the trigger. Basilica first triggers, then we resolve when-buy abilities; and this could make a difference because by the time we get to "if you..." things could have changed. On the other hand, Guildhall only triggers if you gain a Treasure, and we don't check the gained card again. It could be a non-Treasure by the time we resolve Guildhall, but Guildhall doesn't care.

So then Groundskeeper is functionally like this: (A:)  When you gain a Victory card, if this is in play...
Again, only the underlined phrase is the trigger. Viewing it like this, it actually also works in model 2 too, just like Basilica.

We can instead view it like this: (B:) When you gain a Victory card with this in play...
(This is similar to how Urchin is phrased, but we have nothing to compare with there, because nothing interesting can happen in that window.)
In this case it really seems like it would work like Guildhall. That means it wouldn't work according to the ruling, not in model 1 nor in model 2.

So how do we have to interpret it for it to work in model 1 but not in model 2? I guess something like this:

(C:) When this is in play, when you gain a Victory card... which is functionally the same as When you gain a Victory card, when this is in play...

Here we're treating "when this is in play" as a trigger (which is what I alluded to in an earlier post in this thread), giving the card two triggers that both need to happen. It's a bit weird to say that "while this is in play" (the actual card text) is a trigger though; it doesn't seem like something that happens in an instant like other triggers.

So I guess Donald could think either (A) or (C) here. I have to say that I'm starting to think that (B) is the most natural interpretation though, which would agree with your feelings.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 02:50:53 pm by Jeebus »
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Donald X.

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Re: Innovation and Haggler
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2019, 07:49:19 am »
0

So I guess Donald could think either (A) or (C) here. I have to say that I'm starting to think that (B) is the most natural interpretation though, which would agree with your feelings.
I'm not looking to agree to any rephrasing; any time there are rules questions about Groundskeeper, we'll come back to what the card actually says.

I am not sure if your post posits a rules problem with Groundskeeper.
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Jeebus

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Re: Innovation and Haggler
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2019, 01:03:50 pm »
0

Well, I guess I was just saying that there are different ways to interpret the wording, and I'm not sure if the current ruling is the most natural one. But certainly these cards (like Groundskeeper) are different from any other triggering card, so it's not clear.

Given the precedent of cards like Guildhall, I don't think it's out of the question to interpret Groundskeeper the same way: That the "while this is in play" part had to be there at the time you gained the card. With Guildhall the "Treasure" part had to be there at the time you gained the card. If both things ("while this is in play" and "Treasure") are part of the actual trigger, maybe they should work the same in that sense.
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