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Author Topic: Thunderdominion Card List Results  (Read 964 times)

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jsh357

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Thunderdominion Card List Results
« on: January 07, 2019, 09:31:38 pm »
+12

On Dominion Discord, we've spent the past several months working on a group card ranking project. The method (stolen from Mekkah from the Fire Emblem reddit community--check out his videos on Youtube if you love FE btw) was as such:
1. We focused on one expansion at a time.
2. Voters chose what they thought was the best card and worst card in the set.
3. I waited until a decent number of people had voted, and then added the winner and loser to the list in first and last place.
4. I removed those two cards from the pool and everyone voted on the best and worst of the REMAINING cards.
5. Repeat 2-4 until the entire set was ranked.

You may think you have an exciting, original criticism of this methodology. You are incorrect. We already debated it to death over the past few months, lol. It is what it is! If you'd like to run a "better" version, please join us on the server and do so if you would like to! It might be fun to compare the results to the Qvist Lists or something. Here's that link: https://discord.gg/6Pveru9

Events were ranked all in one group. Projects were ranked after, as Renaissance came out during the process. It should be noted that (for whatever this is worth) the majority of voters were top players, though sometimes even they had trouble reaching consensus.

As an added wrinkle, all votes were public and everyone was encouraged to debate placements, so lots of vote changes happened. We all learned things.

At any rate, we've come to the end, and I can't quite capture the entire experience for you if you missed it, but here are the lists. I was going to make a podcast type video series going over each one, but I just can't make that happen--my home is too noisy and I never have any free time. Text will have to do.

Explanation of the numbers: If you see Donate (11/12), that means there were 12 total voters and 11 selected Donate. Simple as that.

Final Base Rankings:
1. Chapel (25/26)
2. Sentry (19/26)
3. Witch (13/19)
4. Throne Room (13/23)
5. Artisan (15/21)
6. Militia (14/21)
7. Village (12/24)
8. Laboratory (17/30)
9. Moneylender (12/20)
10. Smithy (13/22)
11. Festival (9/29)
12. Remodel (12/25)
13. Council room (15/27)
14. Market (12/27)
15. Merchant (15/25)
16. Workshop (12/29)
17. Poacher (11/22)
18. Bandit (10/20)
19. Vassal (14/30)
20. Cellar (9/24)
21. Library (9/21)
22. Moat (10/21)
23. Gardens (11/23)
24. Harbinger (15/19)
25. Mine (17/26)
26. Bureaucrat (18/26)

Complete Intrigue List:

1. Masquerade (10/12)
2. Steward (8/12)
3. Torturer (11/23)
4. Upgrade (15/23)
5. Bridge (19/29)
6. Swindler (19/25)
7. Replace (13/26)
8. Minion (15/19)
9. Ironworks (11/26)
10. Lurker (11/24)
11. Nobles (9/14)
12. Mill (10/26)
13. Mining Village (10/11)
14. Conspirator (10/11)
15. Patrol (9/26)
16. Diplomat (9/14)
17. Courtyard (12/24)
18. Courtier (11/26)
19. Wishing well (10/19)
20. Secret passage (22/26)
21. Baron (14/25)
22. Shanty Town (11/29)
23. Trading Post (12/23)
24. Pawn (9/22)
25. Duke (11/12)
26. Harem (11/12)

Complete Seaside list:
1. Ambassador (14/20)
2. Wharf (12/12)
3. Ghost ship (18/28)
4. Outpost (13/33)
5. Fishing village (16/27)
6. Lookout (17/22)
7. Bazaar (17/26)
8. Salvager (10/25)
9. Warehouse (10/25)
10. Caravan (10/28)
11. Sea Hag (13/30)
12. Lighthouse (15/24)
13. Native village (10/13)
14. Tactician (-3/62)
15. Smugglers (11/24)
16. Haven (14/30)
17. Treasury (24/28)
18. Island (11/25)
19. Cutpurse (15/25)
20. Explorer (15/26)
21. Pearl diver (15/22)
22. Treasure map (18/27)
23. Embargo (23/33)
24. Merchant ship (11/28)
25. Navigator (11/12)
26. Pirate ship (12/20)

Complete Alchemy List:

1. Scrying pool (16/17)
2. Possession (12/17)
3. Familiar (9/13)
4. Apprentice (10/14)
5. Vineyard (9/16)
6. University (10/12)
7. Alchemist (100/120)
8. Apothecary (9/16)
9. Golem (14/14)
10. Herbalist (10/13)
11. Transmute (17/17)
12. Philosopher's stone (10/17)

Compete Prosperity list:
1. Goons (16/27)
2. King's court (21/22)
3. Mountebank (12/12)
4. Worker's Village (9/20)
5. Quarry (13/25)
6. Grand market (16/22)
7. Peddler (20/26)
8. City (12/20)
9. Watchtower (16/28)
10. Rabble (15/24)
11. Expand (10/21)
12. Mint (10/26)
13. Bishop
14. Forge (12/26)
15. Loan (10/21)
16. Bank (10/24)
17. Monument (13/28)
18. Vault (12/20)
19. Hoard (13/26)
20. Talisman (13/22)
21. Trade Route (16/25)
22. Venture (17/20)
23. Contraband (11/12)
24. Counting house (11/22)
25. Royal seal (14/27)

Complete  Cornucopia list:
1. Remake (17/23)
2. Tournament (9/12)
3. Hunting party (13/15)
4. Horn of plenty (15/28)
5. Menagerie (18/20)
6. Hamlet (14/16)
7. Farming Village
8. Young Witch (14/16)
9. Fairgrounds (14/20)
10. Jester (13/28)
11. Horse traders (10/15)
12. Fortune teller (12/12)
13. Harvest (23/23)

Final Hinterlands list:
1. Margrave (19/19)
2. Border Village (15/34)
3. Spice merchant (13/24)
4. Highway (10/21)
5. Haggler (13/24)
6. Stables (22/22)
7. Scheme (13/30)
8. Jack of all trades (25/29)
9. Inn (11/20)
10. Ill-gotten gains (12/25)
11. Develop (14/28)
12. Crossroads (10/20)
13. Fool's gold (12/14)
14. Oracle (12/14)
15. Cartographer (16/20)
16. Embassy (12/28)
17. Oasis (16/25)
18. Tunnel (10/20)
19. Farmland (12/29)
20. Trader (16/30)
21. Nomad camp (10/22)
22. Silk road (19/24)
23. Mandarin (21/21)
24. Noble brigand (18/24)
25. Cache (17/34)
26. Duchess (11/19)

Complete Dark Ages List:
1. Cultist (18/25)
2. Urchin (11/21)
3. Hermit (15/31)
4. Wandering minstrel (15/20)
5. Counterfeit (14/28)
6. Junk Dealer (12/22)
7. Forager (15/25)
8. Ironmonger (12/27)
9. Fortress (8/20)
10. Knights (9/22)
11. Altar (11/20)
12. Count (14/30)
13. Procession (10/20)
14. Bandit camp (10/23)
15. Market Square (12/26)
16. Catacombs (11/28)
17. Hunting Grounds (12/20)
18. Squire
19. Marauder (15/20)
20. Armory (18/28)
21. Graverobber (13/26)
22. Rebuild (9/23)
23. Scavenger (13/20)
24. Storeroom (15/30)
25. Rats (10/20)
26. Vagrant (12/22)
27. Band of misfits (11/20)
28. Rogue (11/27)
29. Mystic (9/25)
30. Sage (15/22)
31. Poor house (17/28)
32. Death cart (11/20)
33. Feodum (14/31)
34. Beggar (13/21)
35. Pillage (10/25)

Compete Guilds list:

1. Butcher (28/29)
2. Stonemason (15/23)
3. Herald (11/15)
4. Doctor (15/27)
5. Plaza (20/23)
6. Advisor (19/19)
7. Journeyman
8. Baker (15/19)
9. Merchant guild (12/23)
10. Soothsayer (11/27)
11. Candlestick maker (9/15)
12. Masterpiece (23/23)
13. Taxman (16/29)

Complete Adventures List:

1. Peasant (17/22)
2. Page (24/24)
3. Dungeon (9/27)
4. Amulet (13/29)
5. Gear (13/24)
6. Bridge troll (15/26)
7. Raze (12/26)
8. Lost city (9/30)
9. Magpie (9/21)
10. Port (11/24)
11. Haunted Woods (10/28)
12. Royal Carriage (15/24)
13. Storyteller (19/23)
14. Coin of the realm (16/24)
15. Artificer (12/23)
16. Ratcatcher (11/23)
17. Transmogrify (12/24)
18. Swamp hag (12/23)
19. Relic (10/24)
20. Distant lands (13/28)
21. Ranger (10/24)
22. Hireling (11/21)
23. Wine merchant (23/30)
24. Guide (13/26)
25. Treasure trove (12/26)
26. Duplicate (11/24)
27. Messenger (12/29)
28. Giant (11/27)
29. Miser (16/24)
30. Caravan guard (10/22)

Final Empires list:

1. City Quarter (12/22)
2. Groundskeeper (13/30)
3. Villa (9/22)
4. Encampment/Plunder (13/28)
5. Overlord (16/30)
6. Catapult/Rocks (17/26)
7. Crown (15/21)
8. Chariot Race (11/26)
9. Forum (13/28)
10. Archive (12/26)
11. Enchantress (12/21)
12. Wild hunt (12/14)
13. Engineer (2/14)
14. Sacrifice (13/21)
15. Patrician/Emporium (15/26)
16. Legionary (12/28)
17. Charm (13/26)
18. Castles (16/21)
19. Temple (12/26)
20. Capital (12/30)
21. Settlers/Bustling village (12/28)
22. Royal blacksmith (12/23)
23. Gladiator/Fortune (12/30)
24. Farmer's Market (9/22)

Complete Nocturne list:
1. Vampire (11/15)
2. Exorcist (7/19)
3. Cursed village (10/18)
4. Den of Sin (18/24)
5. Blessed Village (13/25)
6. Shepherd (16/21)
7. Devil's Workshop (7/23)
8. Tragic Hero (11/23)
9. Monastery (8/18)
10. Cemetery (11/21)
11. Ghost Town (18/20)
12. Pixie (12/22)
13. Werewolf (16/20)
14. Conclave (11/18)
15. Necromancer (11/20)
16. Changeling (10/22)
17. Skulk
18. Secret cave (10/22)
19. Sacred Grove (7/20)
20. Tormentor (10/18)
21. Guardian (11/20)
22. Night Watchman (10/22)
23. Leprechaun (11/20)
24. Idol (10/21)
25. Druid (9/18)
26. Pooka (9/23)
27. Tracker (9/23)
28. Faithful hound (10/21)
29. Cobbler (12/25)
30. Crypt (9/24)
31. Bard (11/18)
32. Fool (18/19)
33. Raider (15/15)

Renaissance:

1. Recruiter (20/20)
2. Priest (9/26)
3. Silk merchant (11/24)
4. Seer (15/28)
5. Treasurer (11/23)
6. Inventor (14/26)
7. Old witch (11/21)
8. Improve (8/24)
9. Hideout (10/22)
10. Lackeys (15/21)
11. Sculptor (11/21)
12. Mountain village (11/20)
13. Swashbuckler (winner)
14. Spices (11/20)
15. Cargo Ship (13/21)
16. Experiment (10/21)
17. Research (14/22)
18. Scepter (13/24)
19. Border guard (12/21)
20. Patron (9/26)
21. Flag bearer (13/23)
22. Ducat (14/28)
23. Acting troupe (12/24)
24. Scholar (12/26)
25. Villain (9/20)

Final Event rankings:
1. Donate (11/11)
2. Save (16/22)
3. Inheritance (14/23)
4. Ferry (9/25)
5. Pathfinding (13/28)
6. Bonfire (13/17)
7. Plan (13/25)
8. Lost Arts (10/17)
9. Summon (12/26)
10. Mission (10/26)
11. Alms (10/25)
12. Travelling Fair (10/25)
13. Dominate (11/15)
14. Training (13/24)
15. Seaway (10/20)
16. Triumph (15/23)
17. Borrow (12/18)
18. Expedition (6/18)
19. Ball (14/23)
20. Advance (12/20)
21. Trade (11/24)
22. Delve (15/15)
23. Scouting Party (13/25)
24. Pilgrimage (12/25)
25. Windfall (7/26)
26. Salt the Earth (11/26)
27. Conquest (10/17)
28. Wedding (11/25)
29. Banquet (16/17)
30. Quest (21/28)
31. Ritual (20/25)
32. Tax (11/23)
33. Raid (11/22)
34. Annex (10/11)

Complete Projects list:
1. Star chart (9/13)
2. Cathedral (16/19)
3. Sinister plot (11/22)
4. Academy (10/20)
5. Innovation (11/18)
6. Sewers (10/18)
7. Citadel (9/20)
8. Fleet (8/17)
9. Canal (10/20)
10. Capitalism (11/16)
11. Pageant (11/16)
12. Fair (13/20)
13. Guildhall (8/17)
14. Piazza (8/20)
15. Barracks (8/18)
16. Crop rotation (9/18)
17. Silos (10/20)
18. Exploration (10/22)
19. City gate (9/19)
20. Road network (13/13)

Final Promos List:
1. Governor (14/14)
2. Black Market (23/27)
3. Suana/Avanto (19/22)
4. Envoy (16/22)
5. Walled Village (16/22)
6. Prince (19/22)
7. Dismantle (15/27)
8. Stash (15/15)
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Titandrake

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Re: Thunderdominion Card List Results
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2019, 10:08:16 pm »
+2

You may think you have an exciting, original criticism of this methodology. You are incorrect. We already debated it to death over the past few months, lol. It is what it is! If you'd like to run a "better" version, please join us on the server and do so if you would like to! It might be fun to compare the results to the Qvist Lists or something. Here's that link: https://discord.gg/6Pveru9

Sorry jsh, as someone who contributed to the original exciting criticism, I am obligated to bring it up again.

Q: Plurality voting? That's so bad! Why don't you do (approval / ranked-choice voting / single transferable vote / <insert your favorite voting system here>)?
A: Everyone knows plurality, it's easy, we already did the initial rating on plurality let's keep doing the same thing.

Q: Don't public one-at-a-time votes encourage bandwagoning onto early frontrunners, rather than voting for the actual best cards?
A: Yes.

Q: Doesn't this also encourage strategic voting, where people vote for the best card out of the frontrunners instead of the card they actually want to win?
A: Yes.

Q: ...isn't this a problem?
A: If the goal was to get a perfect list, yes, but really this is more to spark discussion. The final list is a lot less important than the discussion of people making cases for and against different cards.

This led to a lot of flavor-of-the-month syndrome, some vote trading deals of "I'll vote for anything to stop Remodel from getting voting worst this round", and so on.

I personally wanted to move everything to approval voting and leave everything else the same. People don't feel as bad for voting for their pet cards, you still get the fun bandwagons and call-outs from people who think your hot takes are bad takes, and then you don't get junk like "Festival wins best because it got 9 out of 29 votes". The problem was that I was too lazy to both run a new Thunderdominion and convince everyone else to move to my better and shinier setup, so I gave up. This is how democracy dies - with thunderous applause.
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Donald X.

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Re: Thunderdominion Card List Results
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2019, 03:37:35 am »
0

Q: Plurality voting? That's so bad! Why don't you do (approval / ranked-choice voting / single transferable vote / <insert your favorite voting system here>)?
A: Everyone knows plurality, it's easy, we already did the initial rating on plurality let's keep doing the same thing.
You could change your vote, which is not possible with plurality voting. It was more like IRV, but required you to make the effort to switch to a runner-up.

I personally wanted to move everything to approval voting and leave everything else the same. People don't feel as bad for voting for their pet cards, you still get the fun bandwagons and call-outs from people who think your hot takes are bad takes, and then you don't get junk like "Festival wins best because it got 9 out of 29 votes". The problem was that I was too lazy to both run a new Thunderdominion and convince everyone else to move to my better and shinier setup, so I gave up. This is how democracy dies - with thunderous applause.
The ideal system is "choosing" - you never compare a number of votes. And we have such a system - the Qvist rankings. It's nice for finding out how powerful people think the cards are. The ranking process doesn't generate so much discussion though.
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Re: Thunderdominion Card List Results
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2019, 05:20:56 am »
+2

Sounds like a fun process!

Looks like some tactical voting took place here...
14. Tactician (-3/62)

And Alchemist had quite some following...
6. University (10/12)
7. Alchemist (100/120)

In fact in many of the lists, the vote count for the top card in of the bottom half looks odd. Eg the middle of the Empires list:
11. Enchantress (12/21)
12. Wild hunt (12/14)
13. Engineer (2/14)
14. Sacrifice (13/21)
Reading that consistently with the other vote counts, it would mean that 2 out of 14 people selected Engineer as the worst card in the set {Wild hunt, Engineer}, whereas I suspect it actually means that 12 out of 14 people selected Wild hunt as better than Engineer and 2 out of 14 voted the other way.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 05:32:49 am by infangthief »
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jsh357

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Re: Thunderdominion Card List Results
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2019, 08:14:26 am »
0

Sounds like a fun process!

Looks like some tactical voting took place here...
14. Tactician (-3/62)

And Alchemist had quite some following...
6. University (10/12)
7. Alchemist (100/120)

In fact in many of the lists, the vote count for the top card in of the bottom half looks odd. Eg the middle of the Empires list:
11. Enchantress (12/21)
12. Wild hunt (12/14)
13. Engineer (2/14)
14. Sacrifice (13/21)
Reading that consistently with the other vote counts, it would mean that 2 out of 14 people selected Engineer as the worst card in the set {Wild hunt, Engineer}, whereas I suspect it actually means that 12 out of 14 people selected Wild hunt as better than Engineer and 2 out of 14 voted the other way.

You don't know how happy this makes me
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faust

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Re: Thunderdominion Card List Results
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2019, 08:01:07 am »
+1

Star Chart and Sinister Plot are way overrated.
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Asper

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Re: Thunderdominion Card List Results
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2019, 04:06:35 am »
+2

*Looks at Dark Ages*
*Rebuild is ranked #22*

Uh-huh.

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Re: Thunderdominion Card List Results
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2019, 07:43:37 am »
0

*Looks at Dark Ages*
*Rebuild is ranked #22*

Uh-huh.

Notice that it was 9 votes out of 23. There were no runoffs in thunderdominion. Most of the other votes were split between Graverobber (8) and Armory (6) with Marauder and squire having one vote each, so Rebuild eeked out with 9 votes and lost. All you need is Tracer or Seprix to be on a sudden hate streak and some card gets shoved at the bottom by a narrow margin. It's cool to hate on rebuild now, get with the times Asper.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 07:45:06 am by ThetaSigma12 »
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Re: Thunderdominion Card List Results
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2019, 08:14:42 am »
0

Engines have been beating Rebuild forever, it's not even a new thing.
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Asper

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Re: Thunderdominion Card List Results
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2019, 10:26:51 am »
0

*Looks at Dark Ages*
*Rebuild is ranked #22*

Uh-huh.

Notice that it was 9 votes out of 23. There were no runoffs in thunderdominion. Most of the other votes were split between Graverobber (8) and Armory (6) with Marauder and squire having one vote each, so Rebuild eeked out with 9 votes and lost. All you need is Tracer or Seprix to be on a sudden hate streak and some card gets shoved at the bottom by a narrow margin. It's cool to hate on rebuild now, get with the times Asper.
I hate Rebuild plenty. But unless "best" is intended to mean "favourite", there's no way a working voting system would place it in the bottom half.

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Re: Thunderdominion Card List Results
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2019, 11:04:26 am »
+1

Rebuild shouldn't have been voted beneath Graverobber or Armory (and perhaps not Marauder), but it's in the ballpark.  Data from top level play suggests that Rebuild is correct to gain in fewer than 50% of kingdoms.  The only cards in the top half of the Dark Ages list that are gained by the winner in fewer than 50% of games are Catacombs (47%) and Procession (48%) - both of which are seemingly undergained (the loser gains them even less often).

« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 11:08:09 am by aku_chi »
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Re: Thunderdominion Card List Results
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2019, 11:14:26 am »
+1

Rebuild shouldn't have been voted beneath Graverobber or Armory (and perhaps not Marauder), but it's in the ballpark.  Data from top level play suggests that Rebuild is correct to gain in fewer than 50% of kingdoms.  The only cards in the top half of the Dark Ages list that are gained by the winner in fewer than 50% of games are Catacombs (47%) and Procession (48%) - both of which are seemingly undergained (the loser gains them even less often).
That's not the point really. When Rebuild is good, then it is centralisingly good. A player who is not allowed to gain Rebuild would straight up lose those games where it is correct to gain it. The same isn't true for Catacombs or Procession most of the time.
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aku_chi

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Re: Thunderdominion Card List Results
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2019, 11:29:35 am »
0

That's not the point really. When Rebuild is good, then it is centralisingly good. A player who is not allowed to gain Rebuild would straight up lose those games where it is correct to gain it. The same isn't true for Catacombs or Procession most of the time.

There's an element of truth to that: Rebuild is more centralizing when it's worth gaining than other cards.  This is most true when comparing it with low-opportunity cost cards like cheap cantrips.  But Catacombs and Procession are not low-opportunity cards; most often when they're gained, they are important - if not centralizing.

Also, Rebuild may be less centralizing than you think.  We can look at recent data from two top players to see how differently they play with the card.  RTT gained Rebuild in 28/85 games where it appeared in the kingdom - and won 58/85 (slightly below expectation).  Wandering Winder gained Rebuild in 15/21 games where it appeared - and won 17/21 games (above expectation).  These are smallish sample sizes, but suggest that in as many as ~40% of kingdoms, Rebuild is competitive but not dominant (leaving ~30% where it's dominant and ~30% where it's bad).
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 11:45:51 am by aku_chi »
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aku_chi

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Re: Thunderdominion Card List Results
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2019, 11:51:40 am »
0

This data is only 2P, I presume?

Correct.  2P rated games where at least one player has mu 1.9 or higher (maybe the threshold is 1.8 now).  I wouldn't expect Rebuild to be substantially better or worse in 3P games, but I'm sure it would be better in 4P games, due to having fewer Provinces to compete over.
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RTT

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Re: Thunderdominion Card List Results
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2019, 11:58:04 am »
+1

Rebuild shouldn't have been voted beneath Graverobber or Armory (and perhaps not Marauder), but it's in the ballpark.  Data from top level play suggests that Rebuild is correct to gain in fewer than 50% of kingdoms.  The only cards in the top half of the Dark Ages list that are gained by the winner in fewer than 50% of games are Catacombs (47%) and Procession (48%) - both of which are seemingly undergained (the loser gains them even less often).
That's not the point really. When Rebuild is good, then it is centralisingly good. A player who is not allowed to gain Rebuild would straight up lose those games where it is correct to gain it. The same isn't true for Catacombs or Procession most of the time.
Straigh up lose is an overstatement. Any decent money deck can beat rebuild or be at least competitive.
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trivialknot

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Re: Thunderdominion Card List Results
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2019, 02:02:27 pm »
0

One way to use that data, is to imagine a hypothetical judgment match.  Both players agree on Rebuild 30% of the time, and disagree 33% of the time.  Among the games where people disagree, Rebuild wins 42% of the time.  So that means Rebuild wins about 30%+33%*42% = 44% of judgment matches.

By that same metric, Catacombs is at 47% and Graverobber is at 33%.

But in general, I'm in agreement with faust.  I think I put a lot more weight into a card's centralizing factor.  For example, I would put Bridge Troll above Dungeon in a heartbeat.  Bridge Troll completely changes how you play, and Dungeon mostly just changes how many Dungeons you play; I don't care if you get Dungeon 100% of the time if it doesn't change the game.
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Titandrake

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Re: Thunderdominion Card List Results
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2019, 11:35:19 pm »
+2

You know, if Catacombs is the main draw, you straight up lose if you aren't allowed to buy Catacombs. Procession is similar if the synergies are there. Like, that's why they're good cards. Sometimes you have to go for them. Catacombs as the main draw isn't that rare of a situation. Procession, okay, that's probably rarer than Rebuild or Catacombs.

Rebuild is lower than it should be but I would put it right at about the middle of Dark Ages IMO. General improvements in engine play and Empires in particular have really not been kind to Rebuild.
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Re: Thunderdominion Card List Results
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2019, 02:02:40 am »
0

You know, if Catacombs is the main draw, you straight up lose if you aren't allowed to buy Catacombs. Procession is similar if the synergies are there. Like, that's why they're good cards. Sometimes you have to go for them. Catacombs as the main draw isn't that rare of a situation. Procession, okay, that's probably rarer than Rebuild or Catacombs.

Rebuild is lower than it should be but I would put it right at about the middle of Dark Ages IMO. General improvements in engine play and Empires in particular have really not been kind to Rebuild.
I agree that it should not be much higher, but it is too low. I think Catacombs has that factor where it's similar to a bunch of cards and it doesn't stand out as being centralising because it could have been another card (even if that card isn't in the kingdom). Since Rebuild is more unique, those games are more memorable, and that may very well push Rebuild above ranking-wise to where it should be in my head.

It's why we might say "it was a Rebuild game", but I never heard anyone say "it was a Catacombs game".
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 02:03:56 am by faust »
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Re: Thunderdominion Card List Results
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2019, 04:02:25 am »
0

I think the differences between this statistic and my perception of Rebuild are mostly due to the statistics being based on 2P top play games only.

First, 2P games boost engines greatly, given that the supply contains plenty engine pieces for each player and you are less likely to be hit by attacks - both things Rebuild needs not care about. I can't stress this enough. It appears a lot of people here are focused on 2P online play, so it doesn't come as a surprise.

The other thing is how deceptively trivial Rebuild is to play. Big money has never been the only way to win base, but there's a reason that people perceived it to be a broken strategy. The same goes for Rebuild. Unless you are a top player, you want to go for the best strategy you think you won't screw up. Play a stupid Rebuild strategy, and hope that your opponent does worse at his technically superior strategy.

But yeah, I guess it was a mistake to assume the ranking tried to be useful to players who don't follow the standard fds format.

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Re: Thunderdominion Card List Results
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2019, 05:06:19 am »
+1

The other thing is how deceptively trivial Rebuild is to play. Big money has never been the only way to win base, but there's a reason that people perceived it to be a broken strategy. The same goes for Rebuild. Unless you are a top player, you want to go for the best strategy you think you won't screw up.

I don't think this should be a factor (actually I don't think the first thing should be a factor either but everyone knows that already). Strategies that rely on the opponent screwing up should not be a standard to strive for.
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Donald X.

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Re: Thunderdominion Card List Results
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2019, 06:27:41 am »
+5

But yeah, I guess it was a mistake to assume the ranking tried to be useful to players who don't follow the standard fds format.
The Thunderdominion rankings made no effort at all to be useful to anyone ever.
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Re: Thunderdominion Card List Results
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2019, 09:39:12 am »
+1


The other thing is how deceptively trivial Rebuild is to play. Big money has never been the only way to win base, but there's a reason that people perceived it to be a broken strategy. The same goes for Rebuild. Unless you are a top player, you want to go for the best strategy you think you won't screw up. Play a stupid Rebuild strategy, and hope that your opponent does worse at his technically superior strategy.


Okay, this needs poked at. Everyone should always try to play like a top player every game, that's how you get better and become a top player. That means going for the strategy you think is best, regardless of the level of execution it asks of you. If that strategy looks simple to you, great go for it (you might find it's not as simple as you thought, as is often the case with Rebuild and moneyish decks). If you think something more elaborate can beat it, then pull up your big boy pants and play it out.
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Re: Thunderdominion Card List Results
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2019, 12:49:00 pm »
+4

...and then you try playing an engine against Rebuild, lose because you're not executing it well, and conclude that Rebuild is strong indeed.

Not everyone is on Discord or gets crushed by Dan Brooks playing an engine against Rebuild.
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Re: Thunderdominion Card List Results
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2019, 07:18:10 pm »
0

...and then you try playing an engine against Rebuild, lose because you're not executing it well, and conclude that Rebuild is strong indeed.

Not everyone is on Discord or gets crushed by Dan Brooks playing an engine against Rebuild.

Well, at least you gained experience in that case, as opposed to just going on Rebuild autopilot again.

...Unless you're someone like me who doesn't even know how to play Rebuild properly.
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