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Author Topic: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs  (Read 544 times)

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Jeebus

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Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« on: January 07, 2019, 01:18:09 pm »
0

So if you Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs (where Catacombs has the -$2 token on it), what happens?

I just thought of this question, and saw that it was posed before, but not answered. It's clear that Procession gains a $6 cost card, but what about Catacombs? Catacombs costs $3, but even though it's Catacomb's on-play ability being resolved, the card is currently a Band of Misfits costing $5, so I assume it gains a card that's cheaper than $5.



Dominionaer

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2019, 02:48:48 pm »
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Fortress has also "when you trash this" and if i remember correctly Donald ruled BoM as F goes back to your hand because in moment of trashing it is F. So i assume when trashing BoM-Catacombs (with -2$ cost token on it) you gain only a $2 max.

Edit: Yep, P-BoM-F is on the BoM wiki page
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 03:10:49 pm by Dominionaer »
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Jeebus

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2019, 03:29:12 pm »
+2

Fortress has also "when you trash this" and if i remember correctly Donald ruled BoM as F goes back to your hand because in moment of trashing it is F. So i assume when trashing BoM-Catacombs (with -2$ cost token on it) you gain only a $2 max.

It's a relevant comparison, because both Fortress and Catacombs trigger on when-trash. However, we have to carefully consider triggering and resolving.

Fortress: When you trash this, put it into your hand.
Catacombs: When you trash this, gain a cheaper card.


When Procession trashes a card, the card's when-trash ability triggers right then, and then it's resolved in any order together with other when-trash abilities, like Market Square. (You could discard Market Square and gain a Gold first.) When you do resolve it, you follow the instructions that were triggered, even though those instructions are not on the card anymore.

When you resolve the trashed Fortress, it says "put it into your hand". "It" refers back to "this". It's referring to the physical card although it's not a Fortress now.

When you resolve the trashed Catacombs, the instructions are "gain a cheaper card". The question is what card is referenced at that moment? I think it refers back to "this", just like Fortress. (Also compare to the 1st and 2nd edition of Border Village - "costing less than this" vs. "cheaper"). So I would think that it refers to the physical card, a BoM costing $5.

Dominionaer

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2019, 04:33:10 pm »
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I see your logic. Funny i use the same but come to the other conclusion.

The crucial question seems to be "Did we trash a Catacombs or have we a trashed BoM"? For that i refer to another ruling : BoM as Treasure Map. "If you trashed 2 TM ..." was ruled as fullfilled.
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Jeebus

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2019, 04:45:15 pm »
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I see your logic. Funny i use the same but come to the other conclusion.

The crucial question seems to be "Did we trash a Catacombs or have we a trashed BoM"? For that i refer to another ruling : BoM as Treasure Map. "If you trashed 2 TM ..." was ruled as fullfilled.

True! So it seems we did trash a Catacombs. But the question is really about past or present. If "a cheaper card" refers to "a cheaper card than this" (like I suggested) then it's the current card, BoM costing $5. If it refers to "a cheaper card than the one you trashed", then I guess it would be Catacombs costing $3...?

Dominionaer

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2019, 04:50:07 pm »
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Exactly! DOOOOONAAAAALD!
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GendoIkari

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2019, 05:10:38 pm »
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I know for other cards like Remodel, it has been ruled that there's a difference between "it cost" and "it costs". The second one implies present, so you have to check and see what it currently costs. The first one implies past, so you look at what it cost at the time it was trashed.

However, this doesn't actually help here, because "a cheaper card" doesn't say either "cost" or "costs".
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Donald X.

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2019, 06:07:46 pm »
+1

My ruling is that Catacombs looks at its cost when the ability resolves, thus here it would be less than $3$5.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 06:27:52 pm by Donald X. »
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Jeebus

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2019, 06:20:51 pm »
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My ruling is that Catacombs looks at its cost when the ability resolves, thus here it would be less than $3.

But if it looks at its cost at the time when it resolves, it's a BoM costing $5.

Donald X.

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2019, 06:27:40 pm »
+1

My ruling is that Catacombs looks at its cost when the ability resolves, thus here it would be less than $3.

But if it looks at its cost at the time when it resolves, it's a BoM costing $5.
Yes sorry. Man. BoM played as Catacombs, now it's in the trash, it's a BoM costing $5.
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Ingix

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2019, 03:29:57 am »
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I know for other cards like Remodel, it has been ruled that there's a difference between "it cost" and "it costs".

As far as I'm aware, Ritual is the only effect that actually uses the past tense and refering to "it cost". So this seems to be a one-off, not a division between 2 different lines of similar effects.
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Jeebus

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2019, 11:39:23 am »
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As far as I'm aware, Ritual is the only effect that actually uses the past tense and refering to "it cost". So this seems to be a one-off, not a division between 2 different lines of similar effects.

There is one more: Treasure Map. It cares whether you trashed two cards that were Treasure Maps, not what the cards are now. So you can play a BoM as Treasure Map, trash another Treasure Map from your hand (which has to be a real one), then gain 4 Golds. But if you Inherit Treasure Map and trash an Inherited Estate and a Treasure Map from your hand, it doesn't work, because the Inherited Estate was an Estate all along, not a Treasure Map. I tested both online, and they work correctly.

Asper

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2019, 06:12:51 pm »
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This is in line with Donald's ruling of e.g. Transmute/Inheritance. At the moment you trash Estate, it's an Action card, but in the trash it isn't. Transmuting an Inherited Estate does NOT gain a Duchy.

...Unless I misremember completely.

crj

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2019, 08:53:25 pm »
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Am I the only person becoming mightily confused, here?

If someone were to produce a clear summary of the various card-getting-a-new-name, card-getting-new-text, card-getting-new-types, card-doing-something-nonstandard-when-played and similar tangled interactions once the dust has settled I, for one, would be very grateful!
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Jeebus

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2019, 09:26:54 pm »
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Am I the only person becoming mightily confused, here?

If someone were to produce a clear summary of the various card-getting-a-new-name, card-getting-new-text, card-getting-new-types, card-doing-something-nonstandard-when-played and similar tangled interactions once the dust has settled I, for one, would be very grateful!

With Inheritance, Band of Misfits, Capitalism and Innovation, there are now many weird interactions. The rules document in my signature aims to present them in a clear way. I'm in the process of doing a pretty thorough overhaul (while adding Renaissance). I've mapped most of the interactions, but presenting it in a clear way is also a big challenge. I don't think I should include too many or too detailed corner cases.

ConMan

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2019, 10:28:02 pm »
+1

Am I the only person becoming mightily confused, here?

If someone were to produce a clear summary of the various card-getting-a-new-name, card-getting-new-text, card-getting-new-types, card-doing-something-nonstandard-when-played and similar tangled interactions once the dust has settled I, for one, would be very grateful!
Basically, if you play a Band of Misfits as a blue dog in a box with poison and a sample of radioactive material ...
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crj

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2019, 10:26:07 am »
+1

I don't think I should include too many or too detailed corner cases.
Trouble is, I'm one of the people friends go to if someone buys Capitalism, Inherits Band of Misfits, plays an Estate as a Fortress then buys Mint. They expect me to know what will happen and frankly, I'm losing the plot.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2019, 11:08:03 am »
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I don't think I should include too many or too detailed corner cases.
Trouble is, I'm one of the people friends go to if someone buys Capitalism, Inherits Band of Misfits, plays an Estate as a Fortress then buys Mint. They expect me to know what will happen and frankly, I'm losing the plot.

Nothing will happen, Capitalism only affects actions that give +, of which Band and Fortress are neither.
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crj

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2019, 11:16:24 am »
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Ah, but what if my +$1 token is on Estate, Band of Misfits and/or Fortress. Either when I play it, or when I trash it?

(NB: I'm not actually asking for an answer to this specific question, just illustrating how messed-up the questions are becoming, these days.)
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Ingix

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2019, 12:59:42 pm »
+1

(NB: I'm not actually asking for an answer to this specific question, just illustrating how messed-up the questions are becoming, these days.)

The best way to deal with this IMO is to take things step by step. Figure out what each card is at any given moment (name, abilities, types). Find out which things trigger when, exactly (so you don't mix "on-buy" triggers with "on-gain" ones, for example). Make sure you know the timing rules (easier said then done  ;)).

Generally, card wordings refer to the "current state" of a card (itself or another), with minimal exceptions (I mentioned Ritual, Jeebus added Treasure Map).

Triggers conditions are, for various reasons, checked again after one triggered ability of the same exact same conditon has been handled. This may allow things to trigger that couldn't before (the 'classic' example is to reveal Secret Chamber to put a Moat from your deck into your hand, then reveal that Moat, then (optionally) reveal the Secret Chamber again to put the Moat back on top of the deck).
Anything on a trigger that is not the trigger condition is only cheched when it resolved/you choose to resolve it. You can buy/gain an Emporium with 4 Actions in play, but call a Duplicate (putting the Duplicate in play) first (gaining another Emporium) and get the +2VP for each Emporium (because you have 5 Actions cards in play now, including the Duplicate).

With 'morphing' cards (inherited Estates, Band of Misfits, Overlord) the IMO most important thing to know is that the rules consider for on-buy, on-gain, on-trash triggers the state when the card is 'yours', that is after the transition for on-buy and on-gain, while before the transition for on-trash.

What these "corner cases" boil down to is the application of *many* things is a short time frame, so why each detail is not that complicated in itself, it's getting everything right that is the problem.
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crj

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2019, 01:17:20 pm »
0

The main problem is the ever growing number of things which behave in similar but subtly different ways.

A secondary problem is that some of the rulings change, and I have trouble remembering which is the most recent. I still struggle to remember what we're supposed to do these days with throned-throned-Durations. (-8
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chipperMDW

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2019, 01:32:47 pm »
+1

Generally, card wordings refer to the "current state" of a card (itself or another), with minimal exceptions (I mentioned Ritual, Jeebus added Treasure Map).

I'd throw Smugglers in there, too, even though it's slightly different.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 01:34:30 pm by chipperMDW »
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Jeebus

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2019, 01:48:29 pm »
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Yes, what is important is to consider the timing rules:
  • Resolve each ability step by step (effect by effect), in order.
  • Triggered abilities can interrupt after each effect. Resolve them before continuing.
  • Effects happening to several players are resolved in turn order starting with the current player.
  • Several abilities triggering concurrently:
        Resolve them in turn order starting with the current player.*
        A player with several to resolve chooses which to resolve next.
        While resolving concurrent abilities, conditions may change so that another concurrent ability triggers.
        Resolve all the effects of every ability that has been triggered (in spite of changed conditions), and resolve one ability fully before starting on the next one.
  • Lose-track: You can't move a card if it's not where it's expected to be.
  • A Reaction card in your hand can be resolved several times for the same trigger.
*Optional abilities (meaning Reactions) are resolved by the player with the Reaction. Other abilities are resolved by the player who triggered it.

What's implied here too, is that it's important to distinguish between the time when an ability is triggered and when it's resolved.

In addition to this, there are specificities of the abilities (cards) themselves. For instance most abilities that check a card, check the card at the moment the ability resolves. Also, abilities that say "when x happens, if y", check y when it resolves, not when it triggers.

The types of triggered abilities:
  • "when play, first": when a card is played, but before it's resolved
  • "when buy": after a card is paid for, but before it's gained
  • "when gain": after a card is gained (moved) - if several cards are gained, each card is gained in turn (you can't gain several at once)
  • "when trash": after a card is trashed (moved) - if several are trashed at once, all are trashed before "when trash" abilities are resolved
  • "when discard": after a card is discarded (moved) - if several are discarded at once, all are discarded before "when discard" abilities are resolved
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 01:59:25 pm by Jeebus »
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Donald X.

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2019, 05:51:33 pm »
0

The main problem is the ever growing number of things which behave in similar but subtly different ways.
While there are plenty of other rulings to know, you can eliminate a big hunk of weird ones by just not playing with Band of Misfits, Overlord, and Inheritance.
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crj

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2019, 07:38:05 pm »
+1

The "problem", of course, is that they're fun...
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Donald X.

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2019, 03:04:40 am »
+1

The "problem", of course, is that they're fun...
That is how they came to exist. But today they'd all do the Necromancer trick and be just as fun too.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2019, 11:38:23 am »
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Generally, card wordings refer to the "current state" of a card (itself or another), with minimal exceptions (I mentioned Ritual, Jeebus added Treasure Map).

From another thread:
Duplicate looks for a card costing up to $6 being gained, which didn't happen, so you can't use it.

I think that means this type of card (those that check the state of a card at the time their triggering event occurred) can also be added to this list of cards that look at the past.
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Jeebus

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2019, 07:49:43 pm »
0

Generally, card wordings refer to the "current state" of a card (itself or another), with minimal exceptions (I mentioned Ritual, Jeebus added Treasure Map).

From another thread:
Duplicate looks for a card costing up to $6 being gained, which didn't happen, so you can't use it.

I think that means this type of card (those that check the state of a card at the time their triggering event occurred) can also be added to this list of cards that look at the past.

I wouldn't go that far. Ritual, Treasure Map and Smugglers, as part of their play ability, look at a card that was trashed/gained and what its cost/name was then.

Duplicate, Groundskeeper, Academy, etc, are in another category. They only trigger when a specific kind of card is gained. They never look back at what a card was.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 07:50:56 pm by Jeebus »
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chipperMDW

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2019, 02:53:30 pm »
+1

Duplicate, Groundskeeper, Academy, etc, are in another category. They only trigger when a specific kind of card is gained. They never look back at what a card was.

But since an ability may not become available to trigger (indeed, may not even exist (e.g. with BoM)) until long after the triggering gain (as a result of other abilities triggered by that gain), checking the trigger condition at that point necessarily involves checking the gained card at the time of the gain, which is in the past. Right?
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Jeebus

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Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2019, 10:20:03 pm »
+1

Duplicate, Groundskeeper, Academy, etc, are in another category. They only trigger when a specific kind of card is gained. They never look back at what a card was.

But since an ability may not become available to trigger (indeed, may not even exist (e.g. with BoM)) until long after the triggering gain (as a result of other abilities triggered by that gain), checking the trigger condition at that point necessarily involves checking the gained card at the time of the gain, which is in the past. Right?

Ok, I see what you mean. I don't actually think what you're describing is possible; I don't think it's possible to gain a card, and as a when-gain from that make a when-gain on another card be available. Remember that Innovation can only be used on the first card you gain. But nevertheless I get your point. The rule is that we keep checking triggers, so the trigger apparently has to look at what card was gained, not the card's current state.

Let's compare two simple scenarios:
1) We gain Band of Misfits and play it via Innovation as a Duplicate.
2) We gain Overlord and play it via Innovation as a Duplicate.
In (1), we may call Duplicate to gain a Duplicate. The trigger is gaining a card costing up to $6, which we did. Then we resolve it, and look at the current state of the card.
In (2), it doesn't trigger, since we didn't gain a card costing up to $6.

So yes, I agree that the triggers look at the past. It means that the triggering event never changes. If we gain an Overlord, that's the only triggering event we have for the whole when-gain window. It's still a bit different from Ritual, Treasure Map and Smugglers, because those cards specifically refer to cards in the past, while this is true for all triggers on all cards.
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