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Author Topic: Basilica (spend Coffers tokens at any time)  (Read 661 times)

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Jeebus

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Basilica (spend Coffers tokens at any time)
« on: January 05, 2019, 11:47:59 pm »
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So you can spend Coffers tokens at any time in your Buy phase (before you buy anything). This can matter for Black Market, Storyteller (if you play them in your Buy phase) and Fortune.

It seems this can also matter for Basilica. Let's say you buy a card, leaving you with $1, triggering Basilica and Haggler. You resolve Haggler first, gaining a card that changes things in a way you couldn't know (like a Blessed Village or a Knight). Now you decide to spend a Coffers token before resolving Basilica. Valid?

« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 11:52:02 pm by Jeebus »
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Donald X.

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Re: Spend Coffers tokens at any time
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2019, 12:49:17 am »
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So you can spend Coffers tokens at any time in your Buy phase (before you buy anything). This can matter for Black Market, Storyteller (if you play them in your Buy phase) and Fortune.

It seems this can also matter for Basilica. Let's say you buy a card, leaving you with $1, triggering Basilica and Haggler. You resolve Haggler first, gaining a card that changes things in a way you couldn't know (like a Blessed Village or a Knight). Now you decide to spend a Coffers token before resolving Basilica. Valid?
No; you bought a card, and so can no longer convert Coffers tokens.
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Jeebus

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Re: Spend Coffers tokens at any time
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2019, 01:10:59 am »
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No; you bought a card, and so can no longer convert Coffers tokens.

Oh yes, right. But let's say you play Black Market with Scepter or Capitalism, and then the above scenario.

Dominionaer

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Re: Spend Coffers tokens at any time
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2019, 03:12:51 am »
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Basilica looks at the time of a buy how much money is left. That is also true for a Black Market buy and Basilica does not care, wether that is done in Action phase (there you can't spend Coffers) or per Scepter in Buy phase.

If you want to use Coffers, than you have to spend them before any buy, which includes a sceptered Black Market buy. If you don't buy from sceptered Black Market, than you may spend Coffers as long as you are allowed to play Treasures.
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Donald X.

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Re: Spend Coffers tokens at any time
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2019, 03:20:52 am »
+1

No; you bought a card, and so can no longer convert Coffers tokens.

Oh yes, right. But let's say you play Black Market with Scepter or Capitalism, and then the above scenario.
Then sure.
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Donald X.

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Re: Spend Coffers tokens at any time
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2019, 03:22:43 am »
+3

Basilica looks at the time of a buy how much money is left. That is also true for a Black Market buy and Basilica does not care, wether that is done in Action phase (there you can't spend Coffers) or per Scepter in Buy phase.

If you want to use Coffers, than you have to spend them before any buy, which includes a sceptered Black Market buy. If you don't buy from sceptered Black Market, than you may spend Coffers as long as you are allowed to play Treasures.
I have previously ruled that the Buy phase is "The time when you can play treasures" followed by "the time when you can buy cards," with "convert Coffers" falling into the "when you can play treasures" part.

Thus, Black Market played via Scepter or Capitalism is just a weird exception in all the ways it normally is; it doesn't stop you from converting Coffers tokens as you are still in the "play treasures" part of the Buy phase.
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Dominionaer

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Re: Spend Coffers tokens at any time
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2019, 08:08:21 am »
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I have previously ruled that the Buy phase is "The time when you can play treasures" followed by "the time when you can buy cards," with "convert Coffers" falling into the "when you can play treasures" part.

Thus, Black Market played via Scepter or Capitalism is just a weird exception in all the ways it normally is; it doesn't stop you from converting Coffers tokens as you are still in the "play treasures" part of the Buy phase.
The master has spoken! I take it in stride - so far.

But i am not convinced. I don't see, which wording makes a buy from BM played in Buy phase different than a normal buy? The definition in the first part of quote above does not give any hint, that "convert before any buy" may not apply. On the contrary it is reasonable to say the definition is true, but conversion may be restricted further by the (written!) general rule.

So if the ruling prevails, either the rules for Guilds + Renaissance + Black Market must get changed saying the second part of quote above or an extra wording on Black Market should say "Buying a card this way does not prevent you from using Coffers in Buy phase."

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GendoIkari

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Re: Spend Coffers tokens at any time
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2019, 11:00:44 am »
+1

I have previously ruled that the Buy phase is "The time when you can play treasures" followed by "the time when you can buy cards," with "convert Coffers" falling into the "when you can play treasures" part.

Thus, Black Market played via Scepter or Capitalism is just a weird exception in all the ways it normally is; it doesn't stop you from converting Coffers tokens as you are still in the "play treasures" part of the Buy phase.
The master has spoken! I take it in stride - so far.

But i am not convinced. I don't see, which wording makes a buy from BM played in Buy phase different than a normal buy? The definition in the first part of quote above does not give any hint, that "convert before any buy" may not apply. On the contrary it is reasonable to say the definition is true, but conversion may be restricted further by the (written!) general rule.

So if the ruling prevails, either the rules for Guilds + Renaissance + Black Market must get changed saying the second part of quote above or an extra wording on Black Market should say "Buying a card this way does not prevent you from using Coffers in Buy phase."

It's not that the Black Market buy is in any way different from a regular buy. It's that the rule for when you can play coffers isn't attached to the actual act of buying. It's tied to the sub-phase you are in. You can spend coffers in buy phase A, but you can't spend coffers in buy phase B. Black Market with Capitalism allows you to buy a card in buy phase A, just like Black Market normally allows you to buy a card in your action phase.

Here's the other thread with all that discussion: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19190
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 11:03:00 am by GendoIkari »
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Dominionaer

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Re: Spend Coffers tokens at any time
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2019, 11:40:35 am »
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It's not that the Black Market buy is in any way different from a regular buy. It's that the rule for when you can play coffers isn't attached to the actual act of buying. It's tied to the sub-phase you are in. You can spend coffers in buy phase A, but you can't spend coffers in buy phase B. Black Market with Capitalism allows you to buy a card in buy phase A, just like Black Market normally allows you to buy a card in your action phase.
OK that's an argumentation i can follow and tell others.

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Jeebus

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Re: Spend Coffers tokens at any time
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2019, 12:17:34 pm »
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Another way of saying it: You can't play more treasures or spend from your Coffers after you have bought a card normally (i.e. by using a Buy).

Dominionaer

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Re: Spend Coffers tokens at any time
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2019, 12:20:38 pm »
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Here's the other thread with all that discussion: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19190
After reading that thread (multiple times) and comparing it with this thread, i understand better. I hope i got it right, when i condense it down to that ruling: A Black Market buy during Treasure play phase does not stop playing more Treasures and does not stop conversing more Coffers. When one is allowed, the other must be also allowed.

In that sense a Black Market buy is special, but BM needs no changing in its wording and no general rule - i consider it to be "Kingdom Card Notes" info.
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Dominionaer

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Re: Spend Coffers tokens at any time
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2019, 12:24:34 pm »
+1

Another way of saying it: You can't play more treasures or spend from your Coffers after you have bought a card normally (i.e. by using a Buy).
You can spend Coffers and play Treasures until -1 Buy? ;)

Thank you all for making things clearer i got wrong by intuition.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 12:29:49 pm by Dominionaer »
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crj

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Re: Spend Coffers tokens at any time
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2019, 04:00:15 pm »
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Dumb question I don't think I've seen an answer to: can you really play coin tokens at any time during the play-Treasures sub-phase of your buy phase, or only between playing Treasures?

Could you, for example, play Crown, choose Gold, play the Gold once, play some coin tokens then play the Gold a second time? Similarly, can you play coin tokens in the middle of playing Storyteller or Black Market when you manage to play them in your play-Treasures sub-phase?

It feels right to me that this be impossible, but I'm guessing it might be OK because nothing explicitly prohibits it?
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Jeebus

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Re: Spend Coffers tokens at any time
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2019, 05:22:09 pm »
+1

Dumb question I don't think I've seen an answer to: can you really play coin tokens at any time during the play-Treasures sub-phase of your buy phase, or only between playing Treasures?

Could you, for example, play Crown, choose Gold, play the Gold once, play some coin tokens then play the Gold a second time? Similarly, can you play coin tokens in the middle of playing Storyteller or Black Market when you manage to play them in your play-Treasures sub-phase?

It feels right to me that this be impossible, but I'm guessing it might be OK because nothing explicitly prohibits it?

Yes, you can. You can spend Villager/Coffers tokens in the middle of resolving cards. (Indeed that is the basis for the question on the top of this thread.) See here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19232.msg777585
That thread was based on an earlier discussion where this was made clear, but I'm not sure what thread that was.

crj

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Re: Spend Coffers tokens at any time
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2019, 05:39:16 pm »
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Gosh.

Playing coin tokens between revealing a Fortune to a play of Venture and playing the Fortune would be a pretty nifty use of that liberty. It still feels abusive to me.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Spend Coffers tokens at any time
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2019, 07:10:50 pm »
+1

That thread was based on an earlier discussion where this was made clear, but I'm not sure what thread that was.

You may mean the one that Gendo linked to in his reply in this thread.
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Jeebus

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Re: Basilica (spend Coffers tokens at any time)
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2019, 12:00:47 pm »
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The original post only mentions that new information could make you decide to spend a Coffers. But with Innovation it could also be that you get Coffers that you didn't have before: You buy a card, leaving you with $1 and 0 Coffers, gaining a Candlestick Maker, playing it via Innovation. You spend the Coffers token and get 2 VP from Basilica.

Dominionaer

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Re: Basilica (spend Coffers tokens at any time)
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2019, 03:28:17 am »
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The original post only mentions that new information could make you decide to spend a Coffers. But with Innovation it could also be that you get Coffers that you didn't have before: You buy a card, leaving you with $1 and 0 Coffers, gaining a Candlestick Maker, playing it via Innovation. You spend the Coffers token and get 2 VP from Basilica.
(empasized by me)

According to
I have previously ruled that the Buy phase is "The time when you can play treasures" followed by "the time when you can buy cards," with "convert Coffers" falling into the "when you can play treasures" part.
after a buy you can't spend the Coffer.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 03:30:21 am by Dominionaer »
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Donald X.

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Re: Basilica (spend Coffers tokens at any time)
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2019, 03:31:56 am »
+1

The original post only mentions that new information could make you decide to spend a Coffers. But with Innovation it could also be that you get Coffers that you didn't have before: You buy a card, leaving you with $1 and 0 Coffers, gaining a Candlestick Maker, playing it via Innovation. You spend the Coffers token and get 2 VP from Basilica.
(empasized by me)

According to
I have previously ruled that the Buy phase is "The time when you can play treasures" followed by "the time when you can buy cards," with "convert Coffers" falling into the "when you can play treasures" part.
after a buy you can't spend the Coffer.

I think he means, "you buy a card (using Black Market)."

Black Market played via Capitalism doesn't cause you to shift from being in the "play Treasures" portion of the Buy phase to the "buy cards portion." Thus those buys don't stop you from converting Coffers.

Again you can read at length about this in the other thread.
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Jeebus

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Re: Basilica (spend Coffers tokens at any time)
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2019, 07:31:40 pm »
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Right, you need Innovation, Basilica, Black Market, Scepter/Capitalism, plus a card that gives +Coffers, plus a card that gains on when-buy (like Charm or Haggler)!
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 05:23:54 pm by Jeebus »
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