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Author Topic: Shepherd draws more Victory Points  (Read 354 times)

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DooWopDJ

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Shepherd draws more Victory Points
« on: December 17, 2018, 09:05:19 am »
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When a player discards a Victory card for +2 Cards after playing the Shepherd card, if they then draw another Victory card, does that mean they get to then again draw two more cards by discarding that Victory card? My guess is no, but my opponent thinks the card is still active (even after playing other actions after the Shepherd).  Where can I see the rule that clarifies the 'resolution' of a card is completed, because the Shepherd has been 'resolved' after the first discard.  Note: I have seen in some FAQ clarification that some cards are still 'active' (like Reactions), but I do not think that applies to Shepherd.
Note: BTW - We played using their rule, as I wanted to prove to them why it would not play that way.  This ended up with me with my entire deck in my hand and all my Victory cards in the discard pile.  Very funny play that ended the game with me buying out the rest of the Provinces.
-Thanks
-Doowopdj
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dz

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Re: Shepherd draws more Victory Points
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2018, 09:16:21 am »
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When a player discards a Victory card for +2 Cards after playing the Shepherd card, if they then draw another Victory card, does that mean they get to then again draw two more cards by discarding that Victory card? My guess is no.

Your guess is correct. You can't discard Victory cards through Shepherd after you already drew cards.
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faust

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Re: Shepherd draws more Victory Points
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2018, 09:20:50 am »
+4

Note: BTW - We played using their rule, as I wanted to prove to them why it would not play that way.  This ended up with me with my entire deck in my hand and all my Victory cards in the discard pile.  Very funny play that ended the game with me buying out the rest of the Provinces.
This is still a common result of playing Shepherd with normal rules, though yours make it even easier.

In general, you play a card, you resolve its text in order, and then that card stops doing stuff. Resolving Shepherd in order means you o through the steps, and the steps as detailed on the card are:

1. discard Victory cards
2. draw 2 cards per discarded card.

So you first discard. Then you go to 2, drawing cards. You cannot go back to 1 again, since you already finished resolving that part. Thus you may not discard any of the Victory cards that you drew.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

dpm

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Re: Shepherd draws more Victory Points
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2018, 09:38:07 pm »
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In general, you play a card, you resolve its text in order, and then that card stops doing stuff. Resolving Shepherd in order means you o through the steps, and the steps as detailed on the card are:

1. discard Victory cards
2. draw 2 cards per discarded card.

So you first discard. Then you go to 2, drawing cards. You cannot go back to 1 again, since you already finished resolving that part. Thus you may not discard any of the Victory cards that you drew.

... but, interestingly enough, you could draw some of the Victory cards that you discarded. 
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Jeebus

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Re: Shepherd draws more Victory Points
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2018, 12:59:45 pm »
+2

This is basic to Dominion. Another example, often misunderstood by new players, is Mining Village.

Let's say you're starting your turn, so you have 1 Action and 1 Buy.

You use your Action to play Mining Village, and resolve it in order, once:
1) Draw a card.
2) Add 2 to your pool of Actions.
3) You now have a choice:
    A) Trash the Mining Village and add $2 to your pool of coins.
    B) Don't do anything

Let's say you choose A. Now you have 2 Actions, 1 Buy and $2.

Let's instead say you choose B. Now you have 2 Actions and 1 Buy. You use 1 Action to play Smithy. You cannot now trash the Mining Village for $2. You made your choice, you can't change your choice, and you can't go back and resolve any part of Mining Village again. You resolve the card in its entirety, and only once.

Complicating this are cards like Merchant. This came up in a game recently with a new player. "The first time you play a Silver this turn, +$1." The player thought this means that he plays a Silver immediately (in his Action phase) - precisely because you're supposed to resolve the whole card before continuing. But this is a case of setting up a future ability. When you resolve this instruction on Merchant, it tells you to do something in the future. If you Throne Roomed this Merchant, you would resolve this instruction again, so it would tell you to do this in the future one more time. If you then in your Buy phase play a Silver (the first time you do so) you would get +$1 twice.

When it comes to Reactions, they are not active or inactive. After you reveal a Moat, it's still in your hand. That's it. This means you can play it for +2 Actions in your turn, simply because you're allowed to play cards from your hand.

You might also want to take a look at the document in my sig if you want more explanations and answers.

GendoIkari

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Re: Shepherd draws more Victory Points
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2018, 01:03:58 pm »
+1

I think Cellar would work much better as an example here than Mining Village. The question with Shepherd (which I've also seen asked in regards to Cellar), deals with wanting to do things on a single card in the wrong order.. going back and forth between the 2 different instructions on a card.

The Mining Village example is a bit more extreme... you're talking about going back to a card that you had completely finished playing and then following an instruction on it later.
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Jeebus

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Re: Shepherd draws more Victory Points
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2018, 01:35:49 pm »
+1

I think Cellar would work much better as an example here than Mining Village. The question with Shepherd (which I've also seen asked in regards to Cellar), deals with wanting to do things on a single card in the wrong order.. going back and forth between the 2 different instructions on a card.

The Mining Village example is a bit more extreme... you're talking about going back to a card that you had completely finished playing and then following an instruction on it later.

From the original post: but my opponent thinks the card is still active (even after playing other actions after the Shepherd)

GendoIkari

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Re: Shepherd draws more Victory Points
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2018, 03:25:47 pm »
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I think Cellar would work much better as an example here than Mining Village. The question with Shepherd (which I've also seen asked in regards to Cellar), deals with wanting to do things on a single card in the wrong order.. going back and forth between the 2 different instructions on a card.

The Mining Village example is a bit more extreme... you're talking about going back to a card that you had completely finished playing and then following an instruction on it later.

From the original post: but my opponent thinks the card is still active (even after playing other actions after the Shepherd)

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