Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Bureaucrat and Tunnel  (Read 358 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

DooWopDJ

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 154
  • Respect: +49
    • View Profile
Bureaucrat and Tunnel
« on: December 17, 2018, 08:50:52 am »
0

Does Bureaucrats instruction for "...Each other player...' to '... puts it onto their deck...' meet the Tunnel's '"...discard this other than during Clean-up...' requirements?  My guess is yes, but I am hoping to once again 'find the rule' that covers this.
Thanks
-Doowopdj
Logged

Oyvind

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 126
  • Respect: +89
    • View Profile
Re: Bureaucrat and Tunnel
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2018, 09:09:29 am »
+3

Putting a card on top of your deck is not the same as discarding it, so no, topdecking does not meet Tunnel's discarding requirement.
Logged

DooWopDJ

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 154
  • Respect: +49
    • View Profile
Re: Bureaucrat and Tunnel
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2018, 09:27:43 am »
0

Putting a card on top of your deck is not the same as discarding it, so no, topdecking does not meet Tunnel's discarding requirement.

Thanks.  Is there a place in the Wiki what covers this clarification about topdecking is not considered Discarding (but Bureaucrat seems to be the only card that has this effect of an attack placing an opponent cards on their deck.  This seems to counteract the 'Reaction' the 'discard' intention of the Tunnel.  Is this an oversight of the rules? Or is this an 'intentional' design of the Tunnel card?
Thanks
-Doowopdj
Logged

faust

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2493
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +3461
    • View Profile
Re: Bureaucrat and Tunnel
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2018, 09:38:18 am »
+2

Putting a card on top of your deck is not the same as discarding it, so no, topdecking does not meet Tunnel's discarding requirement.

Thanks.  Is there a place in the Wiki what covers this clarification about topdecking is not considered Discarding (but Bureaucrat seems to be the only card that has this effect of an attack placing an opponent cards on their deck.  This seems to counteract the 'Reaction' the 'discard' intention of the Tunnel.  Is this an oversight of the rules? Or is this an 'intentional' design of the Tunnel card?
Thanks
-Doowopdj

Ghost Ship, Haunted Castle, and the hex Haunting do the same thing. Generally speaking something is considered discarding iff it uses the word "discard". This rule is applicable in many cases; just follow the literal text on the card. Not every Reaction can react to everything.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 7840
  • Respect: +8665
    • View Profile
Re: Bureaucrat and Tunnel
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2018, 10:22:43 am »
+1

Not only does top-decking not count, but puting your deck in your discard pile, like with Messenger or Chancellor doesn't count either.

The official FAQ for Tunnel in the Hinterlands rulebook says:

Quote
This ability does not function if cards are put into your discard pile without being discarded, such as when you buy a card, when you gain a card directly (such as with Border Village), or when your deck is put into your discard pile (such as with Scavenger from Dominion: Dark Ages).

and

Quote
The key thing to look for is a card actually telling you to "discard" cards.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

DooWopDJ

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 154
  • Respect: +49
    • View Profile
Re: Bureaucrat and Tunnel
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2018, 10:44:38 am »
0

Not only does top-decking not count, but puting your deck in your discard pile, like with Messenger or Chancellor doesn't count either.

The official FAQ for Tunnel in the Hinterlands rulebook says:

Quote
This ability does not function if cards are put into your discard pile without being discarded, such as when you buy a card, when you gain a card directly (such as with Border Village), or when your deck is put into your discard pile (such as with Scavenger from Dominion: Dark Ages).

I guess I was hoping to find a direct reference that a new 'Official FAQ' would clarify the topdecking rule, something like
"... his ability does not function if cards are put into your discard pile without being discarded, such as when you buy a card, when you gain a card directly (such as with Border Village), or when your deck is put into your discard pile (such as with Scavenger from Dominion: Dark Ages), or when a card is placed on top of your deck (such as with Bureaucrat from Dominion: Base Set)..."

and

Quote
The key thing to look for is a card actually telling you to "discard" cards.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 7840
  • Respect: +8665
    • View Profile
Re: Bureaucrat and Tunnel
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2018, 11:24:54 am »
+4

I guess I was hoping to find a direct reference that a new 'Official FAQ' would clarify the topdecking rule, something like
"... his ability does not function if cards are put into your discard pile without being discarded, such as when you buy a card, when you gain a card directly (such as with Border Village), or when your deck is put into your discard pile (such as with Scavenger from Dominion: Dark Ages), or when a card is placed on top of your deck (such as with Bureaucrat from Dominion: Base Set)..."


Although topdecking is not mentioned by name, the other examples given, along with the second FAQ entry I quoted, make it completely clear that topdecking wouldn't count. The real question is, why would it? If you think topdecking would count, why wouldn't playing a card count? Or drawing a card? Or passing one to an opponent with Masquerade? There are a bunch of different things you might do with a card... play it, trash it, discard it, topdeck it, pass it, return it to the supply, gain it... topdecking and discarding are no more similar to each other than any of the other options.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Jeebus

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1416
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1016
    • View Profile
Re: Bureaucrat and Tunnel
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2018, 11:49:37 am »
0

Thanks.  Is there a place in the Wiki what covers this clarification about topdecking is not considered Discarding (but Bureaucrat seems to be the only card that has this effect of an attack placing an opponent cards on their deck.  This seems to counteract the 'Reaction' the 'discard' intention of the Tunnel.  Is this an oversight of the rules? Or is this an 'intentional' design of the Tunnel card?

Note that Tunnel doesn't mention Attacks and has nothing to do with an Attack being played. It only reacts to being discarded. That means that it doesn't matter how it was discarded, just that it was discarded (outside of Clean-up of course). So you could play Cellar yourself and discard Tunnel, triggering it.

Chris is me

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2672
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3328
    • View Profile
Re: Bureaucrat and Tunnel
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2018, 01:54:06 pm »
+1

Not only does top-decking not count, but puting your deck in your discard pile, like with Messenger or Chancellor doesn't count either.

The official FAQ for Tunnel in the Hinterlands rulebook says:

Quote
This ability does not function if cards are put into your discard pile without being discarded, such as when you buy a card, when you gain a card directly (such as with Border Village), or when your deck is put into your discard pile (such as with Scavenger from Dominion: Dark Ages).

I guess I was hoping to find a direct reference that a new 'Official FAQ' would clarify the topdecking rule, something like
"... his ability does not function if cards are put into your discard pile without being discarded, such as when you buy a card, when you gain a card directly (such as with Border Village), or when your deck is put into your discard pile (such as with Scavenger from Dominion: Dark Ages), or when a card is placed on top of your deck (such as with Bureaucrat from Dominion: Base Set)..."

and

Quote
The key thing to look for is a card actually telling you to "discard" cards.

The reason this isn't clarified anywhere is because your logic is informed by a somewhat unreasonable assumption - you are assuming any removal of cards from your hand constitutes discarding. That has really never been the case, and that's really not the case in any other card game. I am unsure if discarding is rigidly defined in the base set manual, but the implicit definition of discarding (from hand) is placing cards from your hand into the aptly-named Discard Pile. Putting cards from hand anywhere else, is thus not discarding.
Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

pm me if you wanna do stuff for the blog

they/them

dbclick

  • Scout
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 44
  • Shuffle iT Username: dbclick
  • Respect: +57
    • View Profile
Re: Bureaucrat and Tunnel
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2018, 02:59:58 pm »
+1

I am unsure if discarding is rigidly defined in the base set manual, but the implicit definition of discarding (from hand) is placing cards from your hand into the aptly-named Discard Pile. Putting cards from hand anywhere else, is thus not discarding.

Both 1st and 2nd edition base set manuals define discarding on page 7. The 1st edition Intrigue manual defines it on page 3. Whether or not that definition is rigid enough is, obviously, debatable, though to me it seems pretty solid.
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.345 seconds with 20 queries.