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[tlloyd]

Okay, so I know four-card combos are not really worth studying in depth - especially when each of the four components is unique and irreplaceable for its function, but this one is still pretty fun.

Every turn you play Golem, which then plays Scheme and Chancellor (in that order!). You buy a Province, reshuffle your deck with three Stashes on top, and then replace your Golem with Scheme. Rinse and repeat. Once you get the combo set up, its a guaranteed* Province every turn. In a solitaire game I got 4 Provinces in 11 turns, and all 8 Provinces in 16** turns.

*Any discard attack will of course mess this up completely.
**The extra turn came about because on one turn I accidentally played Chancellor first, then Scheme, which made my stashes miss the reshuffle. But even with this mistake all it took was a single play of Golem to get the deck back in order.

The neat thing about this combo is that it avoids*** the one downfall of Scheme/Golem combos. Normally it's a problem if you draw your Golem with your action cards in hand, since then you can't play both actions and return Golem to your deck. But if you have Golem in hand plus three Stashes, then there is only room in your hand for one other card. If that card is Chancellor, then you play Golem, which then plays Scheme, giving you the action to play Chancellor. If the card is Scheme, then you play Scheme first, then Golem, which plays Chancellor.

***The only way the combo breaks down is if you have Golem, Scheme, Stash x3 in hand, and Chancellor is on top of your deck. You could avoid this very unlikely problem by buying a fourth Stash.

Here's the solitaire game where I tried this out: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/06/game-20120306-105649-e13b89b9.html

[WanderingWinder]

Somehow I doubt it's better than Chancellor+Scheme+Stash.

[RisingJaguar]

It definitely has a lot more variance (getting golem must be hard) but clearly is more resilient.  I noticed you clicked incorrectly on T12 to slow you down by a turn. 

With that said, this is about near perfect shuffle luck for you at the start.  You're never forced to buy a silver, which I assume would naturally happen quite often.  You gain golem a little fast than normal I assume.  Golem also shows up right away on the next shuffle. 

Also the combo does not breakdown as you say, you just play scheme, golem to chancellor and you have $8 again.  A fourth stash is not necessary.

[Taco Lobster]

Also the combo does not breakdown as you say, you just play scheme, golem to chancellor and you have $8 again.  A fourth stash is not necessary.

You can't golem into chancellor in the scenario presented - the chancellor is in your hand.  If you play Chancellor, you can't Scheme your Golem.  If you play Golem, you won't hit the Chancellor and won't get to 8. 

[Deadlock39]

If you play the Golem it should hit Scheme, which gives you another action to play your Chancellor with.

[RisingJaguar]

Also the combo does not breakdown as you say, you just play scheme, golem to chancellor and you have $8 again.  A fourth stash is not necessary.

You can't golem into chancellor in the scenario presented - the chancellor is in your hand.  If you play Chancellor, you can't Scheme your Golem.  If you play Golem, you won't hit the Chancellor and won't get to 8.

Yeah all Golem+scheme+X should never breakdown...

[Taco Lobster]

Also the combo does not breakdown as you say, you just play scheme, golem to chancellor and you have $8 again.  A fourth stash is not necessary.

You can't golem into chancellor in the scenario presented - the chancellor is in your hand.  If you play Chancellor, you can't Scheme your Golem.  If you play Golem, you won't hit the Chancellor and won't get to 8.

Yeah all Golem+scheme+X should never breakdown...

I'm confused.  Are you saying that the combo doesn't break down because you can just Scheme, Golem into nothing, and put the Golem back on the deck?  If so, I agree.  But you won't be able to use the combo on that turn - there's no way to play the Golem and X (assuming X is a terminal action).

If you play the Golem it should hit Scheme, which gives you another action to play your Chancellor with.

Unless the Chancellor and Scheme are already in your hand with the Golem. 

[RisingJaguar]

My mistake, I just kinda glanced at it, but yeah that scenario does break it...

Edit: By break, I mean you don't get the province, play the golem and get the duchy. 

[jotheonah]

But in this setup there's only one card in hand not accounted for. So the hand is Golem, Stash x3, X. X can be Chancellor, in which case you Golem into Scheme and use the +action to play Chancellor. X can be Scheme, in which case you play Scheme and then Golem into Chancellor. X can be anything else, in which case you Golem into both and play Scheme first. Either way, you're playing the Chancellor last and playing all three cards and getting $8, allowing you to buy a Province and set up the hand.

[Deadlock39]

Unless the Chancellor and Scheme are already in your hand with the Golem. 

This is not possible with the scenario described by the tlloyd.  You are top decking 3 Stashes each turn along with your Golem, so only one other card can be in your starting hand.  The only way to break this is to end up with Scheme as your 5th card and draw your Chancellor with it.  This was also explicitly explained by tlloyd.  If this did happen, you would buy a 4th Stash, which then allows you to top deck 4 Stashes and Golem every turn and you will never draw your Chancellor or Scheme into your hand.

[Taco Lobster]

I'm not sure why this is so hard to follow. 

Unless the Chancellor and Scheme are already in your hand with the Golem. 

This is not possible with the scenario described by the tlloyd.  You are top decking 3 Stashes each turn along with your Golem, so only one other card can be in your starting hand.  The only way to break this is to end up with Scheme as your 5th card and draw your Chancellor with it.  This was also explicitly explained by tlloyd.  If this did happen, you would buy a 4th Stash, which then allows you to top deck 4 Stashes and Golem every turn and you will never draw your Chancellor or Scheme into your hand.

Yes, I understand that, and if you read through the entire thread, you will see that I was specifically responding to a subsequent statement that the Golem, Scheme, Stash x3, Chancellor on top would not break the combo.

[jonts26]

Here is a game log of the best possible case, no wasted buys - 8 Provinces by turn 15. (1 Chancellor, 1 Scheme, 1 Potion, 1 Golem, 3 Stashes, 8 Provinces = 15 turns)

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/06/game-20120306-133620-b27cb564.html

Did it on my first try. How's that for luck.

[Deadlock39]

I don't know what you are arguing about. 

You were responding to a "statement that the Golem, Scheme, Stash x3, Chancellor on top would not break the combo". 

You said: "Unless the Chancellor and Scheme are already in your hand with the Golem." 

But... This cannot happen with Golem and 3 Schemes in your hand already because there is only one more card in your hand.  It cannot be both Chancellor and Scheme.

There is a scenario that can break the combo, but it is not the one that you described, and it was already explicitly explained by tlloyd in his original post, so it doesn't seem like anything needs to be pointed out.

***The only way the combo breaks down is if you have Golem, Scheme, Stash x3 in hand, and Chancellor is on top of your deck. You could avoid this very unlikely problem by buying a fourth Stash.

[Taco Lobster]

It's up there in black and white, but let me break it down:

Raising Jaguar:  The combo does not breakdown as [the op] says [when you end up with Scheme, Golem, Stash x3, Chancellor on top]
Me:  Explains why the breakdown is a breakdown
Deadlock:  Irrelevant comment suggesting breakdown is not a breakdown, but possibly a response to some unknown comment about the combo not working in general, which has not been raised as an issue in the thread
Raising Jaguar:  Responds that combo should still work
Me:  Explains in greater detail why that particular hand, which has been the topic of all my prior posts and responses, breaks the combo.  Includes imprecise (technically, the Scheme and Chancellor aren't in the hand at the same time) response to the non-issue raised by Deadlock assuming that he is also talking about the same topic as the prior posts.
Raising Jaguar:  Agrees.
Deadlock:  Reiterates the same point that I was making, but states that my points on that topic, were not, in fact, on that topic.

[tlloyd]

Somehow I doubt it's better than Chancellor+Scheme+Stash.

Probably depends how long it takes you to get the Golem. Jonts26 and I appear to be very good at this!   

Also the combo does not breakdown as you say, you just play scheme, golem to chancellor and you have $8 again.  A fourth stash is not necessary.

The combo does break down as I said, and as others here have explained. Can't Golem into Chancellor if you draw Chancellor into your hand with Scheme.

This is not possible with the scenario described by the tlloyd. 

I would like to be referred to as "the tlloyd" from now on.   

Did it on my first try. How's that for luck.

The log I posted was also my first (and only) try. That's why I stumbled into the mistake of playing Chancellor before Scheme. Now if only I could get that lucky in non-solitaire games.

[Deadlock39]

Okay... I've re-read far too many times, and I think I understand the conversation that was had now...  I apologize for extending the confusion.

I did not follow that your first post was describing what the tlloyd had already posted.  I was further confused by your post which stated "Unless the Chancellor and Scheme are already in your hand with the Golem." because this particular statement is not possible. (In the failure case, the Chancellor is in your hand with the Golem and the Scheme is in play.)

Again, I apologize.  I was attempting to make the exact same points you were making because I misinterpreted the points you were making as "some unknown comment about the combo not working in general"

I would like to be referred to as "the tlloyd" from now on.   

lol... This is what I get for attempting to go back and replace "the OP" with "tlloyd".

[RisingJaguar]

Here is a game log of the best possible case, no wasted buys - 8 Provinces by turn 15. (1 Chancellor, 1 Scheme, 1 Potion, 1 Golem, 3 Stashes, 8 Provinces = 15 turns)

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/06/game-20120306-133620-b27cb564.html

Did it on my first try. How's that for luck.

This baffles me, you guys both get stash instantly that's subsequently chancellored, you guys both get golem on first Potioned hand.  It can't be that easy... can it?

Also the combo does not breakdown as you say, you just play scheme, golem to chancellor and you have $8 again.  A fourth stash is not necessary.

The combo does break down as I said, and as others here have explained. Can't Golem into Chancellor if you draw Chancellor into your hand with Scheme.

Even though I made that mistake earlier, I still think its better to either use the chancellor for the province this turn (and next) or use golem and buy duchy.  Probably a mistake to grab a fourth stash to avoid this unfortunate draw.

Sorry for nitpicking, but I am a perfectionist

[Taco Lobster]

No worries, we were talking past each other and I wasn't helping things by being imprecise in my responses.

[tlloyd]

Also the combo does not breakdown as you say, you just play scheme, golem to chancellor and you have $8 again.  A fourth stash is not necessary.

The combo does break down as I said, and as others here have explained. Can't Golem into Chancellor if you draw Chancellor into your hand with Scheme.

Even though I made that mistake earlier, I still think its better to either use the chancellor for the province this turn (and next) or use golem and buy duchy.  Probably a mistake to grab a fourth stash to avoid this unfortunate draw.

I was focusing on the theoretical aspects of the combo: the combo cannot fail if you have four Stashes. Practically speaking, the combo is unlikely to fail even with three Stashes, and if it does fail you should play the Golem and buy a Duchy (if it's early in the game) or play the Chancellor and buy a Province this turn and next (if it's late in the game).

[tlloyd]

By the way, in a Colony game it's probably worth getting the fourth Stash, as you've got pretty good odds of buying Colonies instead of Provinces. Chancellor ($2) + Stash x4 ($8) + card you draw from Scheme ($1?) = $11. Also in a Colony game it would be well worth the time it might take to buy the Golem.