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Author Topic: Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?  (Read 10684 times)

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Asklepios

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Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?
« on: March 06, 2012, 04:18:40 am »
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As far as the names of cards go, and their effects, how well does each card correlate? How do their game effects relate to their functions? Which cards match up best, and which ones match up least well?

For me, the best match has to be Thief. A thief steals treasure from your enemies, then brings it back for you. You do best at stealing when you're stealing from the rich. Perfect thematic fit.

Another great fit is Duke. The presence of a strong leader makes your duchies more valuable to you as a ruler. After all, a Duke is a war leader, and he will allow that land and that land's people to be turned into something useful to you in battle. Another good fit there is that you get optimal benefit for having roughly one Duke per Duchy you hold. Its not quite as strong a thematic fit as thief though, because Dukes have this multiplying effect in value, which doesn't seem to make much narrative sense.

A medium fit to me would be Chapel. I can see that the original intention was that it got rid of curses. That makes sense. The priest blesses you. I suppose at a stretch you could also say that by donating land and money to the church you strengthen your deck, and that represents the blessings of a god. The theme falls down, however, when you start asking why you don't benefit from giving gold or provinces to the church...

An example of a poor fit (IMHO) would be Goons. Your goons bash down their hand size, like a Militia. Fine. Your Goons go shopping for you or building stuff for you, getting you a +buy. Alright, um sure. Now your Goons when building for you happen to give you a massive victory point advantage, equivalent to having dozens of provinces. Uh... what?
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Davio

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Re: Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2012, 04:41:05 am »
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Good fit(s): The Villages, more population = more workers = more actions, I get it.

Medium fit: Spy. I understand you want to spy at your neighbors' dominions, but why do you have to Spy your own? You already know your own and if you get lost you need a guide or a Navigator, not a Spy.

Bad fit: Throne Room, building this lets you play an action card twice. Okay, why? I don't get the name connection at all.
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Asklepios

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Re: Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2012, 05:01:32 am »
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Good fit(s): The Villages, more population = more workers = more actions, I get it.

Medium fit: Spy. I understand you want to spy at your neighbors' dominions, but why do you have to Spy your own? You already know your own and if you get lost you need a guide or a Navigator, not a Spy.

Bad fit: Throne Room, building this lets you play an action card twice. Okay, why? I don't get the name connection at all.

I agree there. Maybe Throne Room represents your Monarch shouting "not good enough, do it again!" while King's Court represents that, and his cronies shouting "and again!" I suppose more abstractly it comes from the idea that good leadership increases efficiency. God knows what Kings Court-Kings Court-Bridge is meant to represent though, and why all that shouting over a single bridge allows you to buy up a nation's worth of provinces.

Speaking of the villages being good fits, I love the thematic nature of Cities. Sure it doesn't quite make sense that the cities are watching piles empty, but the emergent result is that Cities grow over the course of the game, and that's AWESOME.

The opposite to Cities seems to be Jack of All Trades. Thematically they make sense on cursory inspection, as they do everything, but not very well. In emergent play though they make for non-diverse decks that do one thing well. Which is odd.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 05:03:39 am by Asklepios »
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ftl

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Re: Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2012, 05:18:55 am »
+3

Hunting Party has the same problem as JoAT. Looks like it's thematic - you send them out on a hunt to find something!

...but in practice, you send out a hunting party to find another hunting party to find another hunting party...

They're more like rescue parties.
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Ozle

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Re: Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2012, 06:25:25 am »
+1

Reminds me of the scene from Hot Shots

...several of our men were missing in action.

Since then on two occasions we sent in squads to rescue those men.

Both missions failed.             

Now we have to go and get the men who went t0 get the men who went to get the men.               

-My job is to make sure we don't fail again.
             
You're the best of what's left.

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Asklepios

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Re: Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2012, 06:43:37 am »
+1

Hunting Party has the same problem as JoAT. Looks like it's thematic - you send them out on a hunt to find something!

...but in practice, you send out a hunting party to find another hunting party to find another hunting party...

They're more like rescue parties.

Very true!

"Sound the horns! Begin the hunt! What have you caught, old chap?"

"Found a piece of copper, oddly enough, but also found some other chaps out hunting, thought we'd tag along."

And so on, till some gold is found, though the hunt keeps going ad nauseam, because that blasted fox is nowhere to be seen.
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AJD

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Re: Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2012, 10:10:17 am »
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Bad fit: Throne Room, building this lets you play an action card twice. Okay, why? I don't get the name connection at all.

Donald actually answered this in <a href="http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=919.msg13967#msg13967">a related thread</a>:

So there are several cards in Dominion where the relationship between the name of the card and what it does in the game (or its relationship to other cards) is obscure at best: What does a throne room have to do with doing something twice?
The idea behind Throne Room is, that when the king gives you an order directly, man, you hop to it.
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werothegreat

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Re: Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2012, 10:22:04 am »
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Good fit(s): The Villages, more population = more workers = more actions, I get it.

Medium fit: Spy. I understand you want to spy at your neighbors' dominions, but why do you have to Spy your own? You already know your own and if you get lost you need a guide or a Navigator, not a Spy.

Bad fit: Throne Room, building this lets you play an action card twice. Okay, why? I don't get the name connection at all.

Actually, Spy fits quite well.  You don't always know what's going on in your own kingdom, so you'll often have spies operating domestically - hence wire-tapping and shit like that.

Bank also works thematically - it gives you interest.  The more money you have, the more money you can get out of the bank...
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DG

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Re: Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2012, 10:27:35 am »
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Woodcutter +2 coins and an extra buy; smithy +3 cards. An explanation for one doesn't really explain the other. Perhaps the woodcutter could have been a tavern. Perhaps the smithy could have been a watermill.
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Ozle

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Re: Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2012, 10:38:47 am »
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Woodcutter +2 coins and an extra buy; smithy +3 cards. An explanation for one doesn't really explain the other. Perhaps the woodcutter could have been a tavern. Perhaps the smithy could have been a watermill.

I would go for, Woodcutter produces items, but most of the items are then shipped off to be processed further, this giving the money and the purchase

Whereas the Smithy is an end product. (which in this case is cards)
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Voltgloss

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Re: Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2012, 11:08:19 am »
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Woodcutter +2 coins and an extra buy; smithy +3 cards. An explanation for one doesn't really explain the other.

In the same vein, consider Library and Unviersity.  One coughs up a boatload of coin (or green if luck is against you) while letting you skip action cards.  The other gives actions and action cards, but no coin.  Both are repositories of knowledge. Again, an explanation for one doesn't explain the other.

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Jack Rudd

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Re: Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2012, 11:15:39 am »
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Woodcutter +2 coins and an extra buy; smithy +3 cards. An explanation for one doesn't really explain the other.

In the same vein, consider Library and Unviersity.  One coughs up a boatload of coin (or green if luck is against you) while letting you skip action cards.  The other gives actions and action cards, but no coin.  Both are repositories of knowledge. Again, an explanation for one doesn't explain the other.
Universities provide you with graduates, who give you the option of creating highly-skilled jobs and give you the people to fill the roles. Libraries exist to store books, some of which contain information that can be used for direct economic gain, and some of which are just good reads that add to the cultural value of your kingdom.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2012, 11:25:03 am »
+1

Good fits

Haggler – Not only does he give you extra buying power, but he's able to talk the seller into throwing in a little something extra. What a guy!
Trader – This suave guy is able to interject and sell something for silver, even before you realize that the mountebank gave you a really bad deal. Also, any card worth anything can be sold for silvers.
Noble Brigand – He steals only from the rich, and he gives to the poor. Granted, he's not that great at it, since he fails to see the value in platinum. And he only gives copper to the poor. Still, he does rob from the mostly rich.
Thief – He steals treasure. You decide whether you want to take the Thief's loot or not.
Scheme – Bigger plots ahead.
Fool's Gold – Is it valuable, or is it worthless? You'll just have to find out.
Remake/Remodel – Out with the old and in with the new. Literal implementation of these names. I actually don't consider Expand to count, though.
Sea Hag/Witch/Young Witch – You curse someone and make their lives miserable. Very MacBeth. The Young Witch isn't quite as effective and is easier to circumvent. The +2 Cards aren't really that thematic for the Witch, but when you consider the +2 Cards, then the Young Witch is even more thematic by not being as good at that either.
Stash – You pick where it goes so you can make use of it later (or right now).
Black Market – You want something? Limited time only. One of a kind. Get something that you can't just get from the regular market.
Bank – Use money to make money.
Contraband – It can make you some pretty coin, but you have to dodge the authorities. This may mean that they prevent you from getting to your contact.
Rabble – They tear up your store fronts and make a general mess. You may have to spend some time digging through the mess.
Mountebank – Really, your opponents should have thought better about buying these little blue pills on the street corner.
Transmute – You literally transmute one object into something entirely different. It's magic!
Possession – Dance, my puppet, dance!
Workshop/Ironworks – It creates something. It's not impressive, but you have a new toy now.
Spy/Scrying Pool – You can see what the enemy is planning and act to thwart him. You also see what  obstacles may be in front of you too.
Bureaucrat – He makes your life easier. He ties up the others in red tape.
Trading Post – Similar to the Trader, you can sell off a couple of items for a Silver.
Saboteur – Valuable thing goes boom. This would be more thematic if the item was not replaced, but that'd be an even bigger dick card.
Coppersmith – Making Copper more valuable.
Wishing Well – Star light, star bright, how I wish for a Harem tonight.
Scout – He may suck, but he literally helps you look ahead. He also helps you circumnavigate around quagmire.
Swindler – I know you were told that you were buying a chapel, but you get this pearl diver instead.
Pearl Diver – Physically diving to the bottom of your deck to look for something valuable. Sometimes he comes through. Other times you get a tire.
Torturer – Do this or suffer the consequences.
Masquerade – It feels like an anonymous dance.
Navigator – "Should we take the route of the Cursed Garden?" "No, I think we'd be better off sailing around it and entering lands unknown."
Treasure Map – Sometimes you find X, but you usually only have a worthless piece of paper in your hands.
Cutpurse – Small-time thug can lighten your load. If you are rich enough, then you probably are too risky for him to tackle.

Meh
If it's not on that list, I probably don't think it's a good fit.
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Willvon

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Re: Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2012, 11:28:20 am »
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As the king sits on his throne and makes decisions and laws, it doubles the strength of his actions and riches since he can rule in a way that puts things more in his favor. 

There are other similar comments about the names of the cards in the base set and their relation to a Dominion in this post:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1912.0
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MainiacJoe

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Re: Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2012, 11:45:47 am »
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Can't believe no one has said Wharf yet.
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Ozle

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Re: Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2012, 11:48:39 am »
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Why?
Wharf seems to be pretty standard but not special.

All those goods (cards) coming in all the time (duration) that can be sold on (Buy)

You can pretty much back-justify any card for its name if it stands on its own, no matter the +'s
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Taco Lobster

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Re: Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2012, 12:11:03 pm »
+1

Library is my whipping boy for worst theme to mechanic match in the game.  If it gave +1 Action, it'd be a lot closer to having a function that matched its theme (i.e., you could use it to browse your action cards and select the ones you want to use).  Giving it +1 Action would obviously change its power level, but that's a separate issue.

My favorite card that matches its theme is Wishing Well.  When I play it IRL, I can't help but say "I wish for X" when I go to draw the second card off it. 
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Axxle

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Re: Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2012, 12:48:13 pm »
+1

A medium fit to me would be Chapel. I can see that the original intention was that it got rid of curses. That makes sense. The priest blesses you. I suppose at a stretch you could also say that by donating land and money to the church you strengthen your deck, and that represents the blessings of a god. The theme falls down, however, when you start asking why you don't benefit from giving gold or provinces to the church...
Actually I think Chapel has a very nice fit for me.  When you donate land and money, you aren't receiving the "blessings of god", you are just getting rid of it and letting the church take care of the upkeep.  You don't have to deal with that small estate anymore or inefficient copper mine anymore.  And since you're not donating it to a Chapel of note, unlike that famous Bishop who will spread your name as the true king, you don't get any direct benefit from doing so with things like Gold and Provinces.
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Ozle

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Re: Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2012, 01:52:11 pm »
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My favorite card that matches its theme is Wishing Well.  When I play it IRL, I can't help but say "I wish for X" when I go to draw the second card off it.

Me too!
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O

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Re: Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2012, 03:47:03 pm »
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Cellar: You're discarding cards you (presumably) don't want away into the cellar, making room for new cards.
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Re: Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2012, 04:05:11 pm »
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While some of the base set cards are really non-thematic, some fit quite well. I think the attacks are very good.

Witch - gives out a curse.
Militia - attack the other player, making them discard things.
Spy - sort of poke around your opponents' decks and your decks.
Thief - steal treasures.
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Re: Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2012, 04:41:34 pm »
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And of course Festival. A little bit of everything (except drawing). It FEELS like a party when you play festival.
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Re: Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2012, 11:54:00 pm »
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I don't really understand Minion and Apprentice. What they do has nothing to do with their names, and what they do isn't similar, even though their names are.
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Re: Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2012, 01:19:23 am »
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I don't really understand Minion and Apprentice. What they do has nothing to do with their names, and what they do isn't similar, even though their names are.
Minion works reasonably well.  If you've got one, it's nice.  But when you've got a ton of them, they can just overwhelm the other guy.

I agree that Apprentice doesn't make any sense.  Especially since one of the best things to do with your Apprentice is to get enough of them that you can use one to trash another.  What kind of sense does that make?
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Re: Which cards do and don't do what their name suggests?
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2012, 01:44:34 am »
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I agree that Apprentice doesn't make any sense.  Especially since one of the best things to do with your Apprentice is to get enough of them that you can use one to trash another.  What kind of sense does that make?

Clearly, you have several Apprentices, each one wanting to eventually succeed you in your job. They destroy each other in the process of proving who is the most worthy, all the while doing your dirty work for you.
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