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Author Topic: M120: Czech Mafia (Game Over! Town wins!)  (Read 147050 times)

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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #300 on: December 19, 2018, 10:53:11 am »

I know the wagon has all but evaporated, but I'm still feeling a Dylan lynch. Partially because of how it evaporated I think.

Could you elaborate on this? Possibly because I found the ramping up of the wagon to be somewhat scummy I don’t find it’s dissapating scummy, but do you have more of a theory of the way it evaporated being scummy?

It felt like Dylan had some good lynch momentum going, we even had a bit of talk about days ending early so I know I'm not the only one who felt it, but then a bunch of people jumped out to put the brakes on. I know SS' vote wasn't the strongest thing, and I can see where people might have found that Dylan post about his reasoning authentic-sounding (I don't but I can kind of see it I guess), but it seemed like it never gained as much momentum as it seemed like it had and everyone but me bailed hard ASAP.

I kind of think that town!Dylan gets pushed harder by scum in that situation, to try to push the mislynch through or to make someone like me or faust look scummy for pushing it or something but it was just kind of shrugged off by everyone or actively pushed against. The post can't have been that towny even to people more familiar with Dylan, some of that is surely from town, but scum also kept silent on Dylan, backed off hard, or defended him, and that makes me want to lynch him.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #301 on: December 19, 2018, 10:59:26 am »

I'm strongly opposed to a momsalon lynch, this thought process and the thought process with regard to Robz seem very town, and my own Robz townread came from a similar place and mcmc having that same thought about Robz... I don't know, this feels kind of ironic but it's a serious mcmc townread.
What about Galzria?
I was just debating going back and looking at some old games to try to look at meta, don't have the time right now, but should have time before deadline.

I don't like how almost everyone is scummy or null or I'm so null I'm scummy other than you who we aren't debating lynching anyway and SS who he is defending but kind of lightly. Like it made me think it might be an "I told you so" kind of thing. So no, I don't really like that big reads post, but I also have this part of me that hates to vote anyone who comes back from being prodded with a big helpful reads post, and Galz is a good player.

I'm torn, I'm not opposed to it, I'm not voting there right now.
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faust

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #302 on: December 19, 2018, 11:05:18 am »

I will be around for the deadline by the way, but not this evening when likely most of the exciting stuff is going to go down.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #303 on: December 19, 2018, 11:06:44 am »

Yeah, I don't think I can actually be on at deadline, although if I have insomnia I might log on from my girlfriend's phone or something, but no promises. I'm still U.S. East Coast.
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jotheonah

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #304 on: December 19, 2018, 11:13:27 am »

I know the wagon has all but evaporated, but I'm still feeling a Dylan lynch. Partially because of how it evaporated I think.

Could you elaborate on this? Possibly because I found the ramping up of the wagon to be somewhat scummy I don’t find it’s dissapating scummy, but do you have more of a theory of the way it evaporated being scummy?

It felt like Dylan had some good lynch momentum going, we even had a bit of talk about days ending early so I know I'm not the only one who felt it, but then a bunch of people jumped out to put the brakes on. I know SS' vote wasn't the strongest thing, and I can see where people might have found that Dylan post about his reasoning authentic-sounding (I don't but I can kind of see it I guess), but it seemed like it never gained as much momentum as it seemed like it had and everyone but me bailed hard ASAP.

I kind of think that town!Dylan gets pushed harder by scum in that situation, to try to push the mislynch through or to make someone like me or faust look scummy for pushing it or something but it was just kind of shrugged off by everyone or actively pushed against. The post can't have been that towny even to people more familiar with Dylan, some of that is surely from town, but scum also kept silent on Dylan, backed off hard, or defended him, and that makes me want to lynch him.

I want to like this case, but to me it felt like the wagon, which was never based on much of anything, sputtered out in a pretty organic way. I don't think scum needs to put a lot of pressure on any particular lynch day 1, especially the first one, that far from deadline.

I was the first one to move off the Dylan wagon. I can only speak for myself, but I really did find his case on DatSwan convincing. And that had two effects. One, it made Dylan seem a bit more towny to me and two, it made DatSwan seem a bit more scummy to me. And then I actually reread the evidence for myself and found that DatSwan was playing very differently this game than that game. And then DatSwan just seemed to confirm that narrative as he offered his defense, and did something else I found scummy, namely subtly reshaping Dylan's case to make his response to it seem better (see my post #177). And when he responded to me, he ignored that case, even after I pointed out that he had ignored it.

So I moved my vote to DatSwan. But it was as much a vote for DatSwan as it was an unvote for Dylan.

After that the wagon just sort of puttered out -- Lalight showed up and said it was bad, silver moved his vote, we started talking about other wagons.
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jotheonah

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #305 on: December 19, 2018, 11:15:31 am »

Incidentally, that's why I was happy to try again to make a DatSwan lynch happen when Galzy showed up. I know I have a tendency to tunnel, but I am definitely still scumreading him.
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Robz888

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #306 on: December 19, 2018, 11:20:47 am »

I have not changed what my argument is. You seem to think that because Robz had a thought that you had too he must be town. That seems odd. Scum has thoughts too, and the particular thought Robz was expressing may occur to scum just as well as to town. In fact scum is more likely to express it because expressing it served no discernible purpose for town.

Also somehow you're hung up on the fact that it's worded similarly to what you would have written. Well. I think the only thing that indicates is that you and Robz have a similar background in your lives. I have no clue why scum would use different wordings.

And no, it is not difficult to be contrarian and play to wind people up. But it is generally speaking not a winning strategy for scum. Scum wants to get on the good side of people so they listen to their manipulation and push back against players who try to lynch them.

PPE: 1

I think it's a bit scummy to try to talk people out of early town reads. Like, what's the point? It's day 1 and I'm looking for reasons to rule people out. Like, if two days from now, there's something really suspicious about mcmc, I'm not going to go, "Alas, my early day 1 read on mcmc tells me otherwise, I will not vote him!" I think scum tends to panic and think oh my god, this person is correctly town reading this other person, they will never vote for each other, I am about to be POE'd, the walls are closing in, I must fight this... At least, I know I have had those freakouts in the past, as scum.
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Robz888

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #307 on: December 19, 2018, 11:22:09 am »

If Silver isn't happening... Dylan, Jimmm, DatSwan, UoS are all fine by me. The only lynches I would quite actively oppose right now are Joth and mcmc, I guess.
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faust

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #308 on: December 19, 2018, 11:25:38 am »

I have not changed what my argument is. You seem to think that because Robz had a thought that you had too he must be town. That seems odd. Scum has thoughts too, and the particular thought Robz was expressing may occur to scum just as well as to town. In fact scum is more likely to express it because expressing it served no discernible purpose for town.

Also somehow you're hung up on the fact that it's worded similarly to what you would have written. Well. I think the only thing that indicates is that you and Robz have a similar background in your lives. I have no clue why scum would use different wordings.

And no, it is not difficult to be contrarian and play to wind people up. But it is generally speaking not a winning strategy for scum. Scum wants to get on the good side of people so they listen to their manipulation and push back against players who try to lynch them.

PPE: 1

I think it's a bit scummy to try to talk people out of early town reads. Like, what's the point? It's day 1 and I'm looking for reasons to rule people out. Like, if two days from now, there's something really suspicious about mcmc, I'm not going to go, "Alas, my early day 1 read on mcmc tells me otherwise, I will not vote him!" I think scum tends to panic and think oh my god, this person is correctly town reading this other person, they will never vote for each other, I am about to be POE'd, the walls are closing in, I must fight this... At least, I know I have had those freakouts in the past, as scum.
It's not so much about talking mcmc out of the read as it is about seeing how well mcmc handles scrutiny of his paperthin argument.
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faust

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #309 on: December 19, 2018, 11:25:53 am »

If Silver isn't happening... Dylan, Jimmm, DatSwan, UoS are all fine by me. The only lynches I would quite actively oppose right now are Joth and mcmc, I guess.
What about Galzria?
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faust

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #310 on: December 19, 2018, 11:27:28 am »

Also could you do some active opposing of the mcmc lynch right now because that still seems like an appealing option.
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Robz888

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #311 on: December 19, 2018, 12:06:04 pm »

Okay, well, I very actively oppose it because I really do get some strong town vibes from mcmc, and my opinion on mcmc's towniness should count for something significant. Though I could be wrong and might change my mind later.

Galzria... I don't really think Galz has done anything to merit a town read, but I'm not reading him as scum either. Seems like a lot of work to lynch him, and there's not a huge reason to.

What is the vote count?
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EFHW

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #312 on: December 19, 2018, 12:16:20 pm »

Vote Count 1.6

mcmcsalot (1): Lalight
DatSwan (1): Dylan32
Dylan32 (2): UmbrageOfSnow, Jimmmmm
silverspawn (3): ashersky, mcmcsalot, Robz888
Jimmmmm (4): silverspawn, DatSwan, Galzria, jotheonah
Galzria (1): faust

Not Voting (0):

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
D1 ends at 11am Czech time (5am Forum Time) on Thursday 20th December. That's in ~17 hours.

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Robz888

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #313 on: December 19, 2018, 12:23:32 pm »

Vote: Jimmmm
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jotheonah

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #314 on: December 19, 2018, 12:49:05 pm »

Vote Count 1.6

mcmcsalot (1): Lalight
DatSwan (1): Dylan32
Dylan32 (2): UmbrageOfSnow, Jimmmmm
silverspawn (3): ashersky, mcmcsalot, Robz888
Jimmmmm (4): silverspawn, DatSwan, Galzria, jotheonah
Galzria (1): faust

Not Voting (0):

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
D1 ends at 11am Czech time (5am Forum Time) on Thursday 20th December. That's in ~17 hours.


My vote should be on DatSwan.
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jotheonah

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #315 on: December 19, 2018, 12:49:28 pm »

so should Galzria's
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Robz888

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #316 on: December 19, 2018, 01:40:10 pm »

Well then, Vote: Datswan
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Galzria

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #317 on: December 19, 2018, 01:57:50 pm »

Galz made a reads list so he’s probably skum. Just pointing it out.

I would be interested in what reality you're living, as I can point to both recent town and recent scum games where I've given reads lists. "Galz made a reads list so he's probably skum or town" would be a much more accurate statement.  ::)
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

Galzria

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #318 on: December 19, 2018, 01:59:26 pm »

Galz made a reads list so he’s probably skum. Just pointing it out.

Also, seems you forgot to vote for me here, even though, you know, I'm "probably skum".
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

Galzria

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #319 on: December 19, 2018, 02:04:36 pm »

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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

Robz888

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #320 on: December 19, 2018, 02:11:46 pm »

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #321 on: December 19, 2018, 02:20:48 pm »

Galz made a reads list so he’s probably skum. Just pointing it out.

Also, seems you forgot to vote for me here, even though, you know, I'm "probably skum".

Sorry.

Vote: Galz
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Town:  14 wins, 14 losses (1 MVP)
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3-Party: 4 wins, 1 loss

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #322 on: December 19, 2018, 02:21:22 pm »

Unofficial corrected/updated vote count:

mcmcsalot (1): Lalight
DatSwan (4): Dylan32, Galzria, Jotheonah, Robz888 (L-3)
Dylan32 (2): UmbrageOfSnow, Jimmmmm
silverspawn (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
Jimmmmm (1): silverspawn
Galzria (2): faust, DatSwan

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Galzria

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #323 on: December 19, 2018, 02:22:58 pm »

Mcmc definitely comes across as the scummiest player to me - his opening post and vote on Swan feel VERY much like he's jumping in by leaning into his "I always fight with Swan" meta (which is DEFINITELY a thing that happens between them). But it's just so bloody obvious that... I can't decide if I feel like Mcmc is faking it, or if he's actually scummy because of it. Because I honestly believe that town!Mcmc would fake it for his own personal reasons, I'm hesitant to consider a lynch here.

Speaking of mcmc, I've found Datswan to be rather scummy as well. He too played in to the "I always fight with Mcmc" meta - but in a way that does NOT read like he's faking it for potentially pro-town reasons. Rather, his play feels much more like he's trying to force a match with his town meta, whereas Mcmc feels like he's almost intentionally being scummy. I would support this lynch.

For now, I think I'm going to join Dylan on vote: Datswan. I think that was, and is, the best wagon we've had today.

I’m confused. Can you elaborate on the underlined portion? I can go on record saying I absolutely do not fake things as town for the purpose of lookin more towny or for the purpose of helping a town or scum meta. It’s strange how you start saying I come across as the scummiest and then say you are hesitant to consider a lynch on me. Then you explain that you also find datswan scummy and even vote datswan. How then do you feel like I was scummy for going at datswan and finding him scummy?

I'll do my best.

When I read the thread, start to finish, and try to remove any pre-conceived bias or reads that I may have already have formed (which, I'll admit, I'm not completely capable of doing), you come across as extremely scummy. So does Datswan. Both of your opening set of posts where you vote for one another feel extremely disengenuous and as you both have a strong established meta of clashing with each other, it feels very forced.

So what's different about my reads on you two? The best I can describe it is that your posts for Swan feel like you're TRYING to be scummy - it feels over the top and obvious. From a town perspective, there are plenty of reasons to want to be slightly scum read. You could be a PR trying to avoid a NK. You could be a VT trying to pull a NK based on the previous sentance. I've seen both from multiple players, in multiple scenario's. I've done the second recently (M117 I think? I was VT and played D1 overly scummy with a very soft Cop claim that scum picked up on N1).

Swan on the other hand, reads more serious. Maybe it's that he came second and you first, but he reads to me like he's playing into the "mcmc and I always fight" meta because he's trying to appear like his town-self. It just doesn't give me the same vibes that there could be an alterior town motivation for playing it out that way.

Both of you open by playing into this same, pre-established meta. I could be over-reading on you, and maybe you're just scum trying to blend in to your town meta, as I'm suspicious of Swan for doing. But for neither of you does this come across as genuine. I just find it easier to believe there's a town motivation for you than I do for Swan.

In the end, for both of you to be town and to have opened the way you both did feels really, really strange to me. I just don't feel it. And I have an easier time seeing you posting in the fashion you did as town than I do seeing Swan posting in the fashion that he did as town - so while I'm hesitant to want to vote you, I have no problem voting Swan.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #324 on: December 19, 2018, 02:27:08 pm »

Last Galz post reads like a super well hidden agenda to get two players he knows are town lynched.
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real good. That’s how
Town:  14 wins, 14 losses (1 MVP)
Skum: 7 wins, 7 losses (1 MVP)
3-Party: 4 wins, 1 loss
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