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Author Topic: M120: Czech Mafia (Game Over! Town wins!)  (Read 147069 times)

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SpaceAnemone

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #175 on: December 16, 2018, 07:19:20 pm »

Vote Count 1.3

ashersky (1): Jimmmmm
mcmcsalot (1): LaLight
Robz888 (1): Galzria
DatSwan (3): mcmcsalot, Dylan32, jotheonah
faust (1): ashersky
Dylan32 (4): faust, UmbrageOfSnow, silverspawn, Robz888

Not Voting (1): DatSwan

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
D1 ends at 11am Czech time (5am Forum Time) on Thursday 20th December.

NOTE: Three votes have been rejected by my vote counter so far: "josh", "DarSwan" and "MCMC". The last is arguable, though I think it's definitely weird to all-caps-ify a nickname based on a name that has no upper-case characters. I have just been mulling over adding it to the alias list, but to do so now would make VCs 1.2 incorrect/inconsistent with VC1.3, so I'm not going to.
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Town games: M84(L), M85(W), M86(L), M87(W), M88(L), M90(L), M92(W), M94(L), M97(L), M99(W), M100(L), M104(W), M107(W), M110(L), M112(L), RMM37(L), RMM40(D), RMM41(L), RMM43(L), RMM47(W), ZM23(W).
Scum games: M89(D), M108(L), NM8(W&MVP), NM10(L)   Mod: NM9, RMM38, RMM42.   Pronouns: they/them

Swowl

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #176 on: December 16, 2018, 08:15:18 pm »

Vote: DatSwan

This is looking more and more like a better lynch.

I disagree. Why do you think that.
When did you first start thinking I would be a good lynch, and what happened since that point to make you think it is a better idea now?
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Town:  14 wins, 14 losses (1 MVP)
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jotheonah

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #177 on: December 16, 2018, 08:41:54 pm »

Vote: DatSwan

This is looking more and more like a better lynch.

I disagree. Why do you think that.
When did you first start thinking I would be a good lynch, and what happened since that point to make you think it is a better idea now?

The case against Dylan was based on a comment about Robz that was followed up by an unexplained vote on you. He's explained that vote now and it makes sense to me, as does his reason for not explaining it. So I've soured on that wagon.

Meanwhile, I've found that cases based on defensiveness -- especially off-meta defensiveness -- are often good day one cases. Playing the game as scum is just more stressful, the stakes are higher if you get lynched, and it's hard to resist fighting against every vote against you and feeling like you're in more danger than you actually are -- even if you're aware of the possibility that it's a tell. Which isn't to say that town don't get defensive too, especially at 4 or 5 votes, but scum are, on balance, more likely to get more defensive sooner.

And then when I look back at your posts, as Umbrage said, I have no particular reason to believe you're town.

And then there's this response to Dylan's case:

Ok, so as town last game, as far as I remember the only time DatSwan directly responded to a vote on himself was the like the last one of the game when he was thinking the person who cast the vote was the leading wagon and seemed at that point most likely to be the final scum. Town!swan seemed to just ignore the votes or pressure while, Swan here pretty directly and quickly pushed back almost immediately with both votes. I will grant the very beginning of the last game could have been more busy irl for Swan, cuz they weren't exactly around a ton early on, but later on the pattern held.  Considering I've played 3 games or less with probably half of this lineup, that's as strong of a grounds as I have for any scumread so far.

I wasn't the other wagon at the end of the game. It was Joseph and MCMC and I was pushing Awaclus. Also, even if it was me, you are attempted to compare a Day 4 play to a Day 1 play... which, in your words, is kind of weak.

Now I'm not familiar with the game in question, and perhaps my next step should be to look over it. But even without that knowledge to me, your reply seems like a willful misunderstanding of his case. Dylan isn't "comparing a Day 4 play to a Day 1 play". He's saying that in that game, as town, you didn't react to a vote on you UNTIL Day 4. So he's comparing Day 1 play there to Day 1 play here, and only referring to Day 4 to emphasize his point, but you're twisting it up to make his case seem worse than it actually is. Which is a scummy way to defend yourself.

On a similar note, you say "I wasn't the other wagon at the end of the game." But Dylan didn't say you were. He said "the only time DatSwan directly responded to a vote on himself was the like the last one of the game when he was thinking the person who cast the vote was the leading wagon." So again, not refuting what he said but mischaracterizing it.

I think I'm going to go browse that game -- Towny Mafia, right? -- and see if I agree with Dylan's characterization or with yours.
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Swowl

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #178 on: December 16, 2018, 08:42:36 pm »

So I am not going to go back and quote post every single game that refutes the concept of me directly dealing with cases made on me when I am Town. But in the previous 4 games I have been skum and town. In the instances where I was Town, here are the two games where I do the exactly what Dylan is claiming I would not do as town. Feel free to read back on me all the way to M105 (first game)... it is littered with continuing support of this.


1) M118 - I am Town. Galz votes for me and I immediately engage him in a lengthy 1-on-1, which includes me voting for him.
vote: Datswan


2) M117 - I am Town. This is the beginning of Day 2 where a case is attempting to be built on me and I directly refute it all the way from the start, up until my mis-lynch.
Wasn’t asked or me so i am not answering the question per se - but i would like to point out this is a faulty silogism. One could absolutely assume that “if player A flips skum, they also think it makes Player B look skummy, while simotainiously assuming if Player A flips town it does not mean anything in regards to Player B.”

No. You can absolutely not correctly do this, under no circumstances, never ever ever ever. if A coming true is evidence for B, then A coming false must be evidence against B. This is provable from first principles. See here..

This is a game with interactions and variables. Every interaction is at a minimum a two way street. It is not a math problem. I am not arguing with you’re defn of the theory, just the application of it here.


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Town:  14 wins, 14 losses (1 MVP)
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Swowl

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #179 on: December 16, 2018, 08:43:18 pm »

Vote: DatSwan

This is looking more and more like a better lynch.

I disagree. Why do you think that.
When did you first start thinking I would be a good lynch, and what happened since that point to make you think it is a better idea now?

The case against Dylan was based on a comment about Robz that was followed up by an unexplained vote on you. He's explained that vote now and it makes sense to me, as does his reason for not explaining it. So I've soured on that wagon.

Meanwhile, I've found that cases based on defensiveness -- especially off-meta defensiveness -- are often good day one cases. Playing the game as scum is just more stressful, the stakes are higher if you get lynched, and it's hard to resist fighting against every vote against you and feeling like you're in more danger than you actually are -- even if you're aware of the possibility that it's a tell. Which isn't to say that town don't get defensive too, especially at 4 or 5 votes, but scum are, on balance, more likely to get more defensive sooner.

And then when I look back at your posts, as Umbrage said, I have no particular reason to believe you're town.

And then there's this response to Dylan's case:

Ok, so as town last game, as far as I remember the only time DatSwan directly responded to a vote on himself was the like the last one of the game when he was thinking the person who cast the vote was the leading wagon and seemed at that point most likely to be the final scum. Town!swan seemed to just ignore the votes or pressure while, Swan here pretty directly and quickly pushed back almost immediately with both votes. I will grant the very beginning of the last game could have been more busy irl for Swan, cuz they weren't exactly around a ton early on, but later on the pattern held.  Considering I've played 3 games or less with probably half of this lineup, that's as strong of a grounds as I have for any scumread so far.

I wasn't the other wagon at the end of the game. It was Joseph and MCMC and I was pushing Awaclus. Also, even if it was me, you are attempted to compare a Day 4 play to a Day 1 play... which, in your words, is kind of weak.

Now I'm not familiar with the game in question, and perhaps my next step should be to look over it. But even without that knowledge to me, your reply seems like a willful misunderstanding of his case. Dylan isn't "comparing a Day 4 play to a Day 1 play". He's saying that in that game, as town, you didn't react to a vote on you UNTIL Day 4. So he's comparing Day 1 play there to Day 1 play here, and only referring to Day 4 to emphasize his point, but you're twisting it up to make his case seem worse than it actually is. Which is a scummy way to defend yourself.

On a similar note, you say "I wasn't the other wagon at the end of the game." But Dylan didn't say you were. He said "the only time DatSwan directly responded to a vote on himself was the like the last one of the game when he was thinking the person who cast the vote was the leading wagon." So again, not refuting what he said but mischaracterizing it.

I think I'm going to go browse that game -- Towny Mafia, right? -- and see if I agree with Dylan's characterization or with yours.


please read PPE post. If you need more games I can bring them up it if absolutely required, but I would appreciate it if you could just do it yourself.
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Town:  14 wins, 14 losses (1 MVP)
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3-Party: 4 wins, 1 loss

jotheonah

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #180 on: December 16, 2018, 09:26:38 pm »

Alright. I just skimmed M119. And it took me 40 minutes, so sorry, I'm not going to skim M118 and M117 too. I'm not LaLight.

(Speaking of which prod request: lalight-- he hasn't posted since the 14th at 11 am)

But looking at M119, Dylan's case is accurate, if a bit misleading. DatSwan basically never defends himself all game, but also he doesn't get voted for all game more than a handful of times, and as far as I can tell never had two votes on him at once.

Nonetheless, I think I'm comfortable with my vote. His town play in that game feels very different than his play in this game in more ways than just defensiveness or lack thereof. And he has not addressed the substance of my last post, despite quoting it.

Like I said, I'm not going to go down the rabbit hole of rereading every game DatSwan has been in, but those of you who have been around for more of them, I'll certainly listen if you think I'm off base. I am going to shut up for a while and let other people catch up and respond.
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Swowl

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #181 on: December 16, 2018, 10:15:00 pm »

Alright. I just skimmed M119. And it took me 40 minutes, so sorry, I'm not going to skim M118 and M117 too. I'm not LaLight.

(Speaking of which prod request: lalight-- he hasn't posted since the 14th at 11 am)

But looking at M119, Dylan's case is accurate, if a bit misleading. DatSwan basically never defends himself all game, but also he doesn't get voted for all game more than a handful of times, and as far as I can tell never had two votes on him at once.

Nonetheless, I think I'm comfortable with my vote. His town play in that game feels very different than his play in this game in more ways than just defensiveness or lack thereof. And he has not addressed the substance of my last post, despite quoting it.

Like I said, I'm not going to go down the rabbit hole of rereading every game DatSwan has been in, but those of you who have been around for more of them, I'll certainly listen if you think I'm off base. I am going to shut up for a while and let other people catch up and respond.

I’ve been around for all of them - you should listen to me.
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Swowl

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #182 on: December 16, 2018, 10:25:15 pm »

Also you said it yourself - i never defended myself bc i was never threatened with actually being lynched. When i responded to this i had half the votes on me already since i last logged in and had zero. Who wouldn’t defend themselves?
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Dylan32

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #183 on: December 17, 2018, 12:23:31 am »

Also you said it yourself - i never defended myself bc i was never threatened with actually being lynched. When i responded to this i had half the votes on me already since i last logged in and had zero. Who wouldn’t defend themselves?

Actually, you only had one vote on you (mcmc), then you self-admitedly OMGUSed him "for being lazy," and then a few posts later and I voted, and you responded to my vote also. You could argue that mcmc's one vote there didn't really have you in any danger, so why respond at all, or at least why feel the need to call out the vote as lazy and return the favor? So you can't say you woke up and suddenly had a lot more votes on you before you responded.
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Dylan32

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #184 on: December 17, 2018, 12:23:57 am »

To be clear, I was just referring to this game, not the last one.
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Dylan32

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #185 on: December 17, 2018, 12:30:46 am »

There's also a difference between responding to a vote that doesn't have or doesn't seem like it has much to it (which is where I admittedly should have just kept my mouth shut and voted without saying anything at all) and rebutting an actual stated case. I think most people would react to specific cases against them, but as scum would feel more pressure to react to every (or at least most) vote(s). I'm not claiming every scum would do that, mind you, but the pressure would likely still be there in the back of their mind moreso than in their town games.
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faust

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #186 on: December 17, 2018, 12:56:05 am »

Nonetheless, I think I'm comfortable with my vote. His town play in that game feels very different than his play in this game in more ways than just defensiveness or lack thereof. And he has not addressed the substance of my last post, despite quoting it.
Which ways?
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faust

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #187 on: December 17, 2018, 01:06:43 am »

Meanwhile, I've found that cases based on defensiveness -- especially off-meta defensiveness -- are often good day one cases.
I strongly disagree. Being defensive and challenging votes helps keep the game active and is good pro-town play. I have seen scum trying to ignore votes on them way more often because they don't want to draw additional attention to themselves. Plus I support DatSwan in that this isn't off-meta for him.
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LaLight

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #188 on: December 17, 2018, 02:34:17 am »

Hi guys, sorry for the weekends, signature alert
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LaLight

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #189 on: December 17, 2018, 02:37:02 am »

I'm sorry, but I feel like both Dylan and DatSwan wagons are misleading
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LaLight

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #190 on: December 17, 2018, 02:38:38 am »

looking at the players list it seems to me we have a real strong scumteam. And actually that said, I'd like to vote: ash if mcmc's wagon for some reason doesn't gain support. You should've done it at least for pressure, guys, mcmc's play this Day is so suspicious
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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #191 on: December 17, 2018, 02:40:50 am »

I think this is quite transparent why I am voting ash
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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #192 on: December 17, 2018, 02:42:59 am »

looking at the players list it seems to me we have a real strong scumteam. And actually that said, I'd like to vote: ash if mcmc's wagon for some reason doesn't gain support. You should've done it at least for pressure, guys, mcmc's play this Day is so suspicious
How does the player list suggest a strong scumteam to you? Can you also detail what you mean about mcmc? I'm afraid your original post didn't quite convince me:

vote: mcmcsalot, he's always scum

And is there another reason to vote for ash beside your assertion that there is a strong scumteam?

PPE: Not to me.
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LaLight

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #193 on: December 17, 2018, 03:50:20 am »

looking at the players list it seems to me we have a real strong scumteam. And actually that said, I'd like to vote: ash if mcmc's wagon for some reason doesn't gain support. You should've done it at least for pressure, guys, mcmc's play this Day is so suspicious
How does the player list suggest a strong scumteam to you? Can you also detail what you mean about mcmc? I'm afraid your original post didn't quite convince me:

vote: mcmcsalot, he's always scum

And is there another reason to vote for ash beside your assertion that there is a strong scumteam?

PPE: Not to me.

I think mcmc's initial vote for DatSwan was forced as if he was trying to participate seriously taking the RVS post and making it a scumread.

See:

I’m caught up, joth and silver looks strongly like town v town.


vote: datswan
Their “woah lots going on” feels like scum surprised by the amount of discussion vs town. Town is likely to be excited and specific versus scum who would be general and dismissive.

This as well seems a little forced

But do you disagree with my thought?

I do, actually. There was a lot of posts, when he came, No matter what alignment a person is, they could say woah it's a lot of posts for numerous reasons. Why would scum be surprised about the amount of townies discussion? There's more town people than there's scums. Even given that town would be more specific which is also not really true, or it would be really easy to catch scums.

All in all looks like you tried to develop a read out of nowhere

I am voting for ash, because he didn't come up with some crazy plan still and overall his posts lack content, as for I usually remember of ash.
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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #194 on: December 17, 2018, 03:53:55 am »

How does the player list suggest a strong scumteam to you?

well, I am not scum. All the oher players in the list are very strong players, especially when scums: (here I sterted listing everyone I am afraid to be scum and then I just copied the whole list). That's the reason. Of course it makes town strong as well, but I feel like there is such a huge amount of WIFOM that it's actually isn't worth to talk about, but I am answering your question
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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #195 on: December 17, 2018, 04:15:47 am »

I'm sorry, but I feel like both Dylan and DatSwan wagons are misleading

Agreed. I'm not buying into any of the cases that have been made so far, including my own.

vote: ash

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #196 on: December 17, 2018, 08:02:14 am »

hey all. Just popping in to say that I'm going to need to stay away for probably all day today. Too much to do at work to fall into the forum mafia wormhole.

Nonetheless, I think I'm comfortable with my vote. His town play in that game feels very different than his play in this game in more ways than just defensiveness or lack thereof. And he has not addressed the substance of my last post, despite quoting it.
Which ways?

I'll just do this now because I hate to leave direct questions to me unanswered.

He just reads completely different. In that game, he pops in very occasionally, but whenever he does it's to do some serious high-effort scumhunting posts. This game his posts were mostly low-effort contentless posts until he started defending himself, when his posts started to get long and intricate and frequent. Skim it yourself and see.
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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #197 on: December 17, 2018, 08:27:37 am »

This is my own setup.  It’s specifically made to resist town plans.

Also, lack of content was announced from the beginning.  I’m a different player nowadays, activity/life wise.

Re: Robz, yes.

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #198 on: December 17, 2018, 08:28:58 am »

Also, scum points for LL for the lazy “no plan” vote.

vote: ss for the even lazier follow.
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faust

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #199 on: December 17, 2018, 09:09:26 am »

I think this is quite transparent why I am voting ash
Why did you write this rather than an explanation of your vote?
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