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Author Topic: M120: Czech Mafia (Game Over! Town wins!)  (Read 147045 times)

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Dylan32

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #75 on: December 13, 2018, 01:22:49 pm »

Yeah silver's last few posts sounded weird when I first read them, but I guess you can (and frequently do) have reasons for votes in RVS, so an RVS vote with an explanation isn't an oxymoron like I was thinking at first I guess.
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Forum Mafia Record - Wins: 14 - NM9, M97, RMM41, M99, M102, M104, M119, M126, RMM56, M133, M134, RMM58, RMM59, RMM61, RMM60; Losses 15 - RMM37, M89, M94, M95, M96, M100, RMM47 M109, M110, M120, M127, M129, M131, M132, M136; MVPs: 1 - NM9

Galzria

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #76 on: December 13, 2018, 01:43:47 pm »

Hello!

This game is sporting quite the lineup! Joth, amazing to see you here again after all these years! I only just came back last year myself (thanks as well to Robz)!

My schedule for the next week and a half will be as it normally is - moderately present Monday-Friday, almost zero presence on Saturday/Sunday. I also don't expect that I'll be posting a whole ton on Christmas Eve / Christmas Day. Following the 25th I'm off work until January 4th, and while I may travel, I don't expect to be anywhere without access to internet for any extended period of time. After the 4th, schedule is back to normal for me.

PSA for those that don't know and to whom it may matter: DatSwan and I work together, so twinclaimsies there.

----------

With that out of the way:

Joth,


This is quite the response for such an early vote. Generally it's been my experience that a person using a "scum!me" perspective/narrative/argument/outlook isn't giving a tell - that is, it can come from both scum defending their actions or town genuinely believing that as scum they wouldn't do X (or in your case, "be scared of X").

The thing is, you don't have an established town or scum meta. And as your first game back, the only perspective you would have as town is from a town perspective. So it strikes me as odd that you would jump to a "scum!me" defense... especially so early in.

Also, from the same post:
Why was Jimmmm's unexplained vote for Ashersky bad, but faust's unexplained vote for Jimmmm good?

UoS:


Why are you concerned with who people jump on? More specifically, why do you care if somebody votes for Joth? Further, as faust points out, you claim in one post that wagons are pro-town, and then proceed to vote where there are 0 votes currently, instead of either of the two current wagons. Why?

Can you please detail for me your current read on Joth, and why?

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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

silverspawn

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #77 on: December 13, 2018, 02:07:10 pm »

It raises an eyebrow if an RVS vote is unexplained? Aren't RVS votes by definition unexplained?

I placed it on ash because ash had 2 votes. Wagons is good.
How was your vote random if you placed it on ash for this particular reason?
It wasn't literally random, I used 'RVS' a bit more broadly.

UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #78 on: December 13, 2018, 02:22:29 pm »

Why are you concerned with who people jump on? More specifically, why do you care if somebody votes for Joth? Further, as faust points out, you claim in one post that wagons are pro-town, and then proceed to vote where there are 0 votes currently, instead of either of the two current wagons. Why?

Can you please detail for me your current read on Joth, and why?

It's not the who, it's the how.

Joth's post that got SS' vote was a bit awkward, but in a way that to me seems more like potential-lynchbait-different than scum-different.  I actually agree that it was a weird and kind of useless question but "smells like scared scum" is coming on awfully strong, and in a way that I do think is scummy.

I voted where my biggest scumread at the moment was, I never said I always vote for the biggest wagon, I just think that's a reasonable pro-town thing to do and specifically not an inherently scummy thing to do (re: Jimmmmmmmmm.) Also I wanted to see how people reacted to me saying X is towny... Y! but no one quite jumped on me the way I was hoping and now it's been discussed enough that whatever.

Currently I'm conflicted on Joth, averaging out to null. I'm not inclined to say more about that at this time, I want to see how he acts going forward. (NO PRESSURE JOTH)
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #79 on: December 13, 2018, 02:22:42 pm »

Are we really wanting people to vote more randomly in RVS? Is this somehow a thing?
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jotheonah

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #80 on: December 13, 2018, 02:28:12 pm »

Why was Jimmmm's unexplained vote for Ashersky bad, but faust's unexplained vote for Jimmmm good?

My assumption was that faust's vote on Jimmmm was for the same reasons as mine -- quickly jumping on the first wagon he saw without contributing anything additional to the conversation.

I guess that's a big assumption, but given the timing of the vote, I thought it a fairly obvious explanation, so I didn't read the vote as unexplained or unmotivated.

This is quite the response for such an early vote. Generally it's been my experience that a person using a "scum!me" perspective/narrative/argument/outlook isn't giving a tell - that is, it can come from both scum defending their actions or town genuinely believing that as scum they wouldn't do X (or in your case, "be scared of X").

The thing is, you don't have an established town or scum meta. And as your first game back, the only perspective you would have as town is from a town perspective. So it strikes me as odd that you would jump to a "scum!me" defense... especially so early in.

I was just sort of trying to point out that silverspawn's comment about me being scared scum didn't really make any sense.

Re: my meta.

It's been a few years, but I do remember all the games I played in before, as scum and as town. It's all been coming back to me. In the past I wasn't very helpful day 1 (see my sig) but I think in this game I had so much pent-up excitement about getting started that I'm really throwing myself into it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Galzria

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #81 on: December 13, 2018, 02:40:59 pm »

Are we really wanting people to vote more randomly in RVS? Is this somehow a thing?

Eh, I think the way we use RVS is to take it's generic meaning "To create a bunch of seemingly random points of interest" over it's literal meaning "To create a bunch of random points of interest".

As Joth puts it:

Anyway, despite the name, I don't think very many RVS votes are truly random.

RVS gets the game established, and creates a baseline for which to look back - regardless of any actual reasoning. There are small tells around RVS that I find useful later in the game as well, but explaining them in game would be anti-town. Still, in a game where information tends to be limited, rarely does town ever find themselves concerned with information overload, so the more content that can be created, the better.

Also, Vote: Robz for hating D1 and never participating. D1 is as useful, and often moreso than almost any other day as it establishes the baseline for the rest of the game to follow.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

faust

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #82 on: December 13, 2018, 02:44:20 pm »

Also, Vote: Robz for hating D1 and never participating. D1 is as useful, and often moreso than almost any other day as it establishes the baseline for the rest of the game to follow.
And the baseline you seek to establish is policy voting?
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #83 on: December 13, 2018, 02:45:31 pm »

Yeah, I'm on board with RVS, although I don't think I've ever cast a truly random vote and I suspect that's true of plenty of the rest too, and I think that's better. I'm with you on D1 being one of the most useful days.

I was more talking about Faust vs. SS.
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Galzria

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #84 on: December 13, 2018, 02:48:12 pm »

Why was Jimmmm's unexplained vote for Ashersky bad, but faust's unexplained vote for Jimmmm good?

My assumption was that faust's vote on Jimmmm was for the same reasons as mine -- quickly jumping on the first wagon he saw without contributing anything additional to the conversation.

I guess that's a big assumption, but given the timing of the vote, I thought it a fairly obvious explanation, so I didn't read the vote as unexplained or unmotivated.

* your (silverspawn's) unexplained jumping on the ashersky wagon
* faust's unexplained vote for Jimmmmmm



The things on that list I find scummy so far:
- Jimmmm's ashersky vote
- silverspawn's ashersky vote

I messed up the names in my question: It should have read:

"Why was Silver's vote on Ashersky bad, but faust's vote on Jimmm good"?

In any case, what I found odd was that you listed both Silver's and Faust's vote as being "unexplained", but only found Silver scummy for it.

Now, in your follow up, you've said that you DIDN'T feel that faust's vote was unexplained. But that's exactly how you characterized your feelings on it at the time.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

Galzria

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #85 on: December 13, 2018, 02:51:49 pm »

Also, Vote: Robz for hating D1 and never participating. D1 is as useful, and often moreso than almost any other day as it establishes the baseline for the rest of the game to follow.
And the baseline you seek to establish is policy voting?

He's given me no reason to believe he's not scum. That can be said of others, too, mind you - but as Robz won't play D1 unless given a reason, yes, I'm perfectly content with that vote right now.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

jotheonah

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #86 on: December 13, 2018, 03:00:58 pm »

I guess there's two ways to read the word "unexplained". It could mean "the person casting this vote didn't explain it" (unexplained1) or "there's no apparent explanation for it" (unexplained2). And I may have been using them a bit interchangeably. In the first half of the post, I was just focused on summarizing the action as unbiasedly as possible, so I was using "unexplained" for any vote that didn't come coupled with an explanation, which is all three votes. But to me, silver and Jimmm's votes for asher are unexplained in the other sense, whereas faust's isn't.

Unexplained1 is not necessarily scummy, though it easily could be.

I find unexplained 2 to be scummy, and here's why: Town should be voting for a person they think is scum and they should be doing it in such a way that other town players are encouraged to join them, in order to get that scum lynched. Voting for someone because they have a wagon isn't that. Voting for someone for no apparent reason isn't that.

Scum, on the other hand, wants to use their vote to facilitate a mislynch, and the sooner the better. Now of course you can WIFOM this all day and many of you are advanced players from whom I would expect more sophisticated scum play, but on balance when I see someone throwing their vote around without explanation, especially to run up an existing wagon, I'm suspicious. Especially on day 1 with nothing to go on.
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jotheonah

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #87 on: December 13, 2018, 03:04:24 pm »

Note that since that post I've come to realize that this idea of informational wagons apparently has some currency, which changes my read. The fact that Umbrage, silver, and Jimmmm seem to think that voting for ashersky just to run up a wagon is pro-town, I have to reconsider my read on it as scummy, even though I'm still not really convinced. People have different ideas about what constitutes pro-town day 1 play and that doesn't make them scum.
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silverspawn

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #88 on: December 13, 2018, 03:26:39 pm »

Why are you concerned with who people jump on? More specifically, why do you care if somebody votes for Joth? Further, as faust points out, you claim in one post that wagons are pro-town, and then proceed to vote where there are 0 votes currently, instead of either of the two current wagons. Why?

Can you please detail for me your current read on Joth, and why?

It's not the who, it's the how.

Joth's post that got SS' vote was a bit awkward, but in a way that to me seems more like potential-lynchbait-different than scum-different.  I actually agree that it was a weird and kind of useless question but "smells like scared scum" is coming on awfully strong, and in a way that I do think is scummy.

Maybe if you hear my reasoning, you'll change your mind.

LaLight is said to have read every scum game. This is very unusual. joth has been absent for a while and is now coming back. It's easy to see how he could be nervous about someone knowing his meta, and I think "come on, tell me about what makes me scummy" is a very plausible thing for a scum player to do. On the other hand, the town motivation makes less sense, because there's no way LaLight has any solid read on anyone so far.

silverspawn

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #89 on: December 13, 2018, 03:31:28 pm »

I find unexplained 2 to be scummy, and here's why: Town should be voting for a person they think is scum and they should be doing it in such a way that other town players are encouraged to join them, in order to get that scum lynched. Voting for someone because they have a wagon isn't that. Voting for someone for no apparent reason isn't that.

Yeah, I don't think this is true. I rarely have a conscious mislynch in mind if I vote as scum, at least if it's day one. I think generally the scum motivation is "look good" and the town motivation is "be pro town" in whatever way.

faust

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #90 on: December 13, 2018, 04:02:45 pm »

I don't subscribe to whatever reasons joth assumes I had for my Jimmmmm vote.
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jotheonah

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #91 on: December 13, 2018, 04:06:08 pm »

Quote
the town motivation is "be pro town"

This is just a tautology. It doesn't mean anything. I'll buy that scum might not have a conscious motivation to mislynch but I think it's pretty uncontroversial to say that town motivation is "lynch scum". That's my motivation anyway.

I don't subscribe to whatever reasons joth assumes I had for my Jimmmmm vote.

Fair enough. Care to share your reasons?
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faust

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #92 on: December 13, 2018, 04:07:07 pm »

I don't subscribe to whatever reasons joth assumes I had for my Jimmmmm vote.

Fair enough. Care to share your reasons?
No.
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Robz888

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #93 on: December 13, 2018, 04:09:40 pm »

Also, Vote: Robz for hating D1 and never participating. D1 is as useful, and often moreso than almost any other day as it establishes the baseline for the rest of the game to follow.
And the baseline you seek to establish is policy voting?

He's given me no reason to believe he's not scum. That can be said of others, too, mind you - but as Robz won't play D1 unless given a reason, yes, I'm perfectly content with that vote right now.

Fair, but I am intending to play this day 1 anyway. I’m going to surprise you!
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Robz888

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #94 on: December 13, 2018, 04:11:30 pm »

vote: josh for asking this question too early. Smells like scared scum.

Vote: silverspawn since I don’t believe this is scummy and Joth is far more easily explained as energetic returning player than scared scum.
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Galzria

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #95 on: December 13, 2018, 04:11:57 pm »

Also, Vote: Robz for hating D1 and never participating. D1 is as useful, and often moreso than almost any other day as it establishes the baseline for the rest of the game to follow.
And the baseline you seek to establish is policy voting?

He's given me no reason to believe he's not scum. That can be said of others, too, mind you - but as Robz won't play D1 unless given a reason, yes, I'm perfectly content with that vote right now.

Fair, but I am intending to play this day 1 anyway. I’m going to surprise you!

I look forward to it!
Logged
Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

silverspawn

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #96 on: December 13, 2018, 04:42:34 pm »

Quote
the town motivation is "be pro town"

This is just a tautology.

You are fortunate that Awaclus is not in the game, otherwise you'd quickly realize that it isn't a tautology.

But more importantly... I don't get why you say it doesn't mean anything. Being pro town is a fairly specific motivation to have. It can be used to distinguish town from scum. Being obvious doesn't make something meaningless.

silverspawn

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #97 on: December 13, 2018, 04:44:01 pm »

but I think it's pretty uncontroversial to say that town motivation is "lynch scum".

Ultimately, yes. But not necessarily as the immediate goal. The immediate goal could just be to cause activity or drama or reactions or whatever, without intending to lynch someone.

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #98 on: December 13, 2018, 05:00:33 pm »

Why are you concerned with who people jump on? More specifically, why do you care if somebody votes for Joth? Further, as faust points out, you claim in one post that wagons are pro-town, and then proceed to vote where there are 0 votes currently, instead of either of the two current wagons. Why?

Can you please detail for me your current read on Joth, and why?

It's not the who, it's the how.

Joth's post that got SS' vote was a bit awkward, but in a way that to me seems more like potential-lynchbait-different than scum-different.  I actually agree that it was a weird and kind of useless question but "smells like scared scum" is coming on awfully strong, and in a way that I do think is scummy.

Maybe if you hear my reasoning, you'll change your mind.

LaLight is said to have read every scum game. This is very unusual. joth has been absent for a while and is now coming back. It's easy to see how he could be nervous about someone knowing his meta, and I think "come on, tell me about what makes me scummy" is a very plausible thing for a scum player to do. On the other hand, the town motivation makes less sense, because there's no way LaLight has any solid read on anyone so far.


I didn't ask him for solid reads. I asked him if anyone was playing off-meta so far. Which I think is a reasonable thing to ask someone who has read all the games. I absolutely think people can conform to or deviate from their meta in just a few posts. To give a completely hypothetical example, suppose faust's town meta was that he normally wrote long paragraphs explaining each vote. His vote for Jimmmmm with no explanation would then be off-meta.

Speaking of LaLight, they never really answered that question. And even if there wasn't enough info to answer it then, I suspect there is enough to answer it now.

Quote
I think "come on, tell me about what makes me scummy" is a very plausible thing for a scum player to do

I'm learning that you and I have very different ideas about how scum players think and act.
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silverspawn

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Re: M120: Czech Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #99 on: December 13, 2018, 05:07:31 pm »

Regardless of whether it was scummy, I still think answering it is clearly anti town. Wait until scum incriminated themselves, and then tell everyone what their scumtells are.
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