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Mean Mr Mustard

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« on: March 06, 2012, 03:52:26 am »
+7

<b>Coming soon: IsoDom Challenge, a seven week, non-elimination Isotropic Dominion Tournament</b>

I am currently in the planning stages for the next IsoDom event, and I am seeking input from the community re: viability, entertainment value and fair-play.

Roughly, what I'd like to organize is a 28-man tournament, split into four groups of seven by seed.  The main tournament will take place over the course of six weeks, with each player having a weekly five- or seven-game match against one player in the same group.  There will be no eliminations; instead, points will be tallied as follows: Two for a win, one for a tie, zero for a loss.  Every week will bring a new match against a different player, culminating in a final four-player match between group winners to determine the tournament winner.  The group winners will be determined by overall point standing, with an undecided tie-break scenerio.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 04:17:57 am by Mean Mr Mustard »
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Fabian

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2012, 04:09:33 am »
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I find this viable, entertaining and fair!

No really, this sounds nice. As always, I'd much prefer the tournament to have a faster playing schedule, since I feel a week to play a match is like 5 days too much. Aren't we all addicts, anyway? Other than that, I like it. Just make the final a 5/7/15+ (seriously, 15+ games would be awesome!) game ordeal; playing just one 4 player game to determine the winner sounds ridiculous.

Edit: And at least 7 games per opponent please.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 04:31:07 am by Fabian »
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Lekkit

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2012, 04:27:28 am »
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This is cool, I like it a lot!

I kind of agree with Fabian on the point with tighter schedules. I think it would be possible for us to find 28 players that are willing to put other things in life on hold to play Dominion.
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Fabian

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2012, 04:46:03 am »
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I mean, if it were up to me, this would be over in a weekend. Saturday you play 28 games, Sunday you play 21 and possibly another ~15 in the finals. That's like, what, 4-5 hours a day? That's nothing compared to the tournaments I'm used to playing :)

Actually, having a tournament like that every weekend would be sweet :)
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Geronimoo

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2012, 04:51:09 am »
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One word: multi...player
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Fabian

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2012, 04:57:47 am »
+1

The concept of a multiplayer tournament is awesome to me, fwiw. I need to get better at 4p games; playing a bit in a live league here in Stockholm has shown me that I'm basically awful. If I'm to steal the Nationals title from Lekkit, I need to get better at it :)
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lespeutere

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2012, 05:11:58 am »
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I like the general idea of having kind of a group stage at first.
However, if the group stage comprises 2 player matches only, then the final(s) should be 2 player matches, too, I think. The more games I play with 3/4 players, the more I think it's really different (as you can see when Fabian says, he is 'awful' which he's not in 2 player matches - whatever this 'awful' means to him). So I'd either have 2 and 3/4 player games mixed from the beginning of the competition or not at all.

Whatever you decide to do - count me in, I'm willing to try it again.
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Lekkit

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2012, 05:39:46 am »
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Being someone who started out as a 4+player-player, I like the idea of playing more players in a single game. The problem arises when four players from four different time zones to tries to find a time where they can set a few hours aside.
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Dubdubdubdub

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2012, 08:41:30 am »
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Where do I sign up?
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shark_bait

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2012, 09:24:26 am »
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I must say, I really like the idea of seeing 4 elite players duke it out in a series of 4-player games to determine the winner.  Maybe play 8 games in the final and score them something like 5,3,1,0 for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place respectively.
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Dubdubdubdub

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2012, 09:48:12 am »
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I must say, I really like the idea of seeing 4 elite players duke it out in a series of 4-player games to determine the winner.  Maybe play 8 games in the final and score them something like 5,3,1,0 for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place respectively.

Hey, this is quite a nice system... After 8 games, there could obv be a tie (like 5,5,4,4), but is there any way a tied position after game 8 could still be a tie after game 9?

:D PUZZLE!
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shark_bait

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2012, 09:53:36 am »
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I must say, I really like the idea of seeing 4 elite players duke it out in a series of 4-player games to determine the winner.  Maybe play 8 games in the final and score them something like 5,3,1,0 for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place respectively.

Hey, this is quite a nice system... After 8 games, there could obv be a tie (like 5,5,4,4), but is there any way a tied position after game 8 could still be a tie after game 9?

:D PUZZLE!


Hmmm... that's an interesting question.  I said 8 games just because I was thinking more along the lines of each person having 2 games at each seating position, but I don't know how that would be implemented on iso (perhaps the official version could remedy that).  With any number of games not divisible by 4, there would be an unequal distribution of seating.  But I suppose that would matter if seating for the game was determined solely on place in the last game.
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greatexpectations

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2012, 10:30:45 am »
+1

i like the group play idea a lot. barring any huge changes you can count me in again.  my two cents...

- i both agree and disagree with fabian.  on the one hand, one week is often 5 days too many.  on the other hand, it can be very difficult to match schedules with someone in just a week for 6 weeks straight. this is especially the case for us/european matchups or for someone with an odd busy week. i would propose that instead of a fixed one week schedule we instead just make it say an open month to get your matches played.  that way you can play multiple sets per week if time allows, and if you are busy you can take a pass. this could also allow you to bump the matchups a little higher than 5/7 games. 
- a 4p title set sounds fun, but i think that it would be difficult to organize 4 players to play 8+ games at a time.  how about a compromise of sorts between a 4p matchup and head to head?  why not do another quick group play of 3(?) games of the group winners.  use the resulting seeds to determine table placements for the 4p final round.  then make that final the first to n wins.
- i don't always participate in the creation myself, but i like the idea of using predetermined kingdoms.  i would like to see that again in the final. 
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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2012, 10:36:44 am »
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I think if you do this multiplayer then you need to set times people have to be available from the start. (possibly have a timezone split?)

And if people cant make those times..tough
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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2012, 10:41:29 am »
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4-player with the entire community is going to be very hard to organise. I'd propose a 3-player tournament for each time zone. Then the winners of each zone play each other, but are given much more time to arrange the match.
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Fabian

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2012, 10:51:57 am »
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Time zones mean between close-to-nothing, to nothing, imo. Different people have different demands on their times, which definitely don't necessarily correspond to their time zone.

The fixed X days to get Y matches done still meets the same problem in my mind, that X days will probably be too long. I really feel like you could easily gather people who could schedule something much more easily. A long tournament might also mean a tournament which doesn't conclude, as I'm sure you're aware.
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greatexpectations

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2012, 11:09:01 am »
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Time zones mean between close-to-nothing, to nothing, imo. Different people have different demands on their times, which definitely don't necessarily correspond to their time zone.

The fixed X days to get Y matches done still meets the same problem in my mind, that X days will probably be too long. I really feel like you could easily gather people who could schedule something much more easily. A long tournament might also mean a tournament which doesn't conclude, as I'm sure you're aware.

time zones mean nothing for you maybe, but i would hesitate to extend that to the community at large. i am not sure what the demographics of students vs employed is on isotropic, but any american with a regular full time job is going to have some degree of trouble with a european matchup.  a lot of us are hardcore, but that doesn't always mean we are playing 24/7.  i play a lot, but i play almost exclusively in the same time frame each night.

if my idea of trimming from 6 weeks to 3/4 is still too long for you than i think it might be too hard to appease you. i understand we all want a fast moving tournament, but we need to be reasonable. we have a wide demographic of players to appease.

yes, i am sure you could gather people for easy scheduling, it is called playing with friends.  i play regularly with a few friends and we have a great time.  but if you want a variety of quality competition and an intriguing format i am afraid you will have to make some concessions somewhere.  and of course, there is nothing stopping you from putting together your own tournament. or playing more than the allotted set with a tournament opponent. or setting up your own matchups.  if you want to play a ten game set against me sometime i would love to do it.

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Jorbles

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2012, 12:56:24 pm »
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I really like MMM's idea for the tournament with the group rounds beforehand and I tend to echo greatexpectation's concerns with regards to people's calls for less time for games (employed people and time zone differences make that time necessary).

I'm not sure about the idea for a big multiplayer game as the small first player advantage problem of 2 player tends to be compounded with the more players involved in the game. I enjoy playing 4 player socially, but I think it might be frustrating in a tournament.

Anyhow as, long as we stick with the originally proposed format for the time frame of the tournament I am excited to play in it regardless.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 01:48:45 pm by Jorbles »
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Young Nick

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2012, 01:07:04 pm »
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I would love to participate, but I don't really have the most open schedule. I can already see scheduling-related stress...
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Dubdubdubdub

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2012, 01:09:09 pm »
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I must say, I really like the idea of seeing 4 elite players duke it out in a series of 4-player games to determine the winner.  Maybe play 8 games in the final and score them something like 5,3,1,0 for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place respectively.

Hey, this is quite a nice system... After 8 games, there could obv be a tie (like 5,5,4,4), but is there any way a tied position after game 8 could still be a tie after game 9?

:D PUZZLE!

Wow, my reasoning was completely off. A score like 5,5,4,4 would happen after 2 games, not 8. Weird..
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Dubdubdubdub

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2012, 01:25:49 pm »
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The answer to the puzzle, by the way, is yes, game 9 can make for a tied position too.

Player
A 5 3 1 0  5 3 1 3  = 21
B 3 1 0 5  1 5 5 1  = 21
C 1 0 5 3  3 0 0 5  = 17
D 0 5 3 1  0 1 3 0  = 13

Game 9:
A 0 => 21
B 1 => 22
C 5 => 22
D 3 => 16

I haven't tried to figured out yet if there is a way to keep this tie-swap going on indefinitely. Might be we'll never know...
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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2012, 01:51:13 pm »
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I tried it and you cant, you can do it every other round though of course
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2012, 01:53:42 pm »
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Okay, thanks for the feedback, keep it coming.

I have always run weekly rounds with the caveat that the next round begins early if everyone finishes early, and I would like to keep it that way.  Yes, I play quite a bit at times but I know I have a pretty full schedule with a full time job and a young son and there is no way I can commit every weekend to a marathon tournament schedule.  That is not to say it is a bad idea, just not one I can commit to.

I was hesitant to have a four-player finale because of the logistics of getting four people from across the world together for two or more hours, but I think it will be okay for the last match since delays would not set the rest of the tournament back.  I suppose I wasn't clear, but I meant to say the final would also be a series of games, not a single game.

A couple of more things to think about:  How to break a tie in points from the group round when trying to determine the group winner?  Also, as an added bit of flavor, I am considering having each round represent the evolving nature of the card pool by expansion using the card filter.  What I have in mind is that each round will be represented by a different expansion.  In the first round the players must require six random Base cards in every game, round two would require six random Intrigue cards, etc.  Thus the "Challenge" of IsoDom Challenge, mastering the different sets while weaving a common thread to all the matches played in any week without the somewhat predictability of predetermined kingdoms.
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<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2012, 01:55:18 pm »
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Might be we'll never know...
[/quote]

I tried it and you cant, you can do it every other round though of course

teeheehee.. I hoped that would work :)
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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2012, 01:56:35 pm »
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Might be we'll never know...
I tried it and you cant, you can do it every other round though of course

teeheehee.. I hoped that would work :)


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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2012, 02:04:53 pm »
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Also, I can see that seeding groups by rank <i>and</i> time zone is the way to go when possible.  When the time comes (soon, I imagine) for sign-ups that will be some added info that will be used to populate the groups.
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Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2012, 02:09:47 pm »
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Two things I'd like to point out.

1. With the whole timezone thing, it's possible to have people enter into a specific time slot (the 4 groups) or enter into multiple time slots.  That way scheduling will be a lot easier within the groups and if its unbalanced, those that entered into multiple time slots people can move around to fill in those spots. 

2. If I understood correctly, each pairing will have to play X games regardless (lets say 10).  How do we deal with 1st turn advantage? I personally think it should be set up that each player gets X/2 games as first and X/2 as second no matter what.  It makes a bit more sense since its a round robin, it should be equal ground for everyone.  I don't think it makes a huge difference overall, but I think it's worth looking at. 
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2012, 02:21:11 pm »
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But is there a way to manipulate Isotropic to set player seats before the match? How would it work?
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<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
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RisingJaguar

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2012, 02:33:15 pm »
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But is there a way to manipulate Isotropic to set player seats before the match? How would it work?
I'm referring only to the 2P matches (so they would just create a phony game and have them resign). 

I'm guessing 4P would work similarly in that if you create a game with 4P and have them resign in the proper order, you would get your desired starting order? I haven't tried this but I assume Iso takes account multi-player losses the same.
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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2012, 02:46:24 pm »
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What about openings hands? Force to be the same or random? and how about Point tracker always on? always off? decided by players in the match? if one wants it all have it?
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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2012, 03:14:37 pm »
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What about openings hands? Force to be the same or random? and how about Point tracker always on? always off? decided by players in the match? if one wants it all have it?
All of this is usually decided by the players themselves, as in the previous Isodom and Dominion Strategy Tournament. 
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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2012, 03:46:05 pm »
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What about openings hands? Force to be the same or random? and how about Point tracker always on? always off? decided by players in the match? if one wants it all have it?
All of this is usually decided by the players themselves, as in the previous Isodom and Dominion Strategy Tournament.

Thanks I played in the dominion strategy tournament but havent been in one of the Isodom's yet
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O

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2012, 05:56:54 pm »
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I'd like to sign up. However many games the final round is, it should probably be a multiple of four so position can be equally distributed. Also, the politics get interesting here when scoring is taken into account in a 4player game (break PPR so player X has no chance of winning..etc)
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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2012, 06:56:23 pm »
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I'd love a multiplayer tournament as well, it's something I think we could all get better at. There's nothing quite like real Dominion tournaments, and those are always more than 2p games.
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yuma

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2012, 10:02:09 pm »
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I am very interested in this... One idea that I thought of during IsoDom 3 was that using preset matches was fun--but often led to a who can simulate best.  I wonder if there is a way to have this feature--but to only make the preset match known right before the players are about to begin.  Either having someone in Isotropic when they start to play, or finding a website that requires two passwords (or however many people are playing) to reveal the kingdom to everyone. I know I have used a website for similar purposes but I can't remember if off the top of my head.

Using the filters would also work, as was mentioned above I think, but that way everyone would be playing different sets within the filters.
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lespeutere

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2012, 04:58:05 am »
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I'm not sure anymore whether I expressed myself clearly:
I don't have anything against a multiplayer tournament; it's just that I'd prefer consistency (since the best '4 player style' players might not make it to the final table if it's only 2 player matches to qualify for that) in terms of either
a) have 2 player matches all tournament long or
b) have multiplayer matches all tournament long or
c) have both mixed but from the beginning (and involving same pairings of players in both 'styles', too).

A suggestion for case c) would be to start with 8, 16(?) groups of 4 players. They have 2 player matches against each other (6 matches in total; boX (X=5, 7?)) and a series of 4 player matches (4, to insure everybody started in every position once). Add some points to be given for 1., 2., 3., 4. place so that 2 player and 4 player matches are equally important and you'll have a table for each of the 8 groups. The top 1 or 2 players of each group move on to the next round etc.
It could result in a rather long tournament, I guess, and it's not necessarily a suggestion for the coming IsoDom Challenge, but I think it's pretty interesting and something one might like to keep in mind.
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CoheedandCambria

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2012, 07:47:59 pm »
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I'd love to participate in a tournament like this but isn't 28 people a little low? Idk how many people are normally willing to commit to this since I'm kind of new here but I feel like people would be left out.
 
Love the idea of the multiplayer final, it's such a different game and would like to see how the top players approach it.
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PerdHapley

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2012, 11:33:41 pm »
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I think this is a great idea, and I love that these tournaments keep evolving and changing. Having a multiplayer final would be really fun, and it would force the top players from each group to adapt. I mean, how many really excellent 4-person players are out there anyway? Those games would be super interesting to analyze.

And I like the idea of biasing the card selections toward certain sets throughout. Last tournament's format was really cool, but there's nothing wrong with a good old fashioned shake-up.
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Mergus

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2012, 09:04:48 pm »
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What happened to this idea? I think it would be a good one that's worth a try too!
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2012, 12:10:13 am »
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Stay tuned.
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

Smartie

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Re: IsoDom Challenge
« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2012, 11:35:05 am »
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Thanks for your great effort! Thumbs up  :)
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