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Author Topic: Black Market/Storyteller/Crown with Capitalism/Scepter/Innovation  (Read 240 times)

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Jeebus

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This is a summary of how it works with Coffers and Debt. If I'm mistaken or missing something, I'd appreciate feedback.

B1 = the first part of the Buy phase (play Treasures; spend Coffers tokens at any time)
B2 = the second part of the Buy phase (buy things; pay off debt before or after each buy EDIT: at any time)

Capitalism or Scepter:
Play Black Market in B1 - you can spend Coffers tokens in the middle. You can't pay off debt.
Play Storyteller in B1 - you can spend Coffers tokens in the middle. You can't pay off debt.

Innovation:
Buy and play Black Market in B2 - you can't spend Coffers tokens (you would have to do it in B1). You can't pay off debt in the middle, only before you buy the BM or after you've completely resolved the BM. EDIT: You can pay off debt in the middle.
Buy and play Storyteller in B2 - you can't spend Coffers tokens (you would have to do it in B1). You can't can pay off debt, as above.

Capitalism pluss Innovation:
Buy and play Black Market/Storyteller/Crown and as a result play Black Market (being a Treasure) in B2 - as above, you can't spend Coffers tokens or pay off debt. but you can pay off debt.
Buy and play Black Market/Storyteller/Crown and as a result play Storyteller (being a Treasure) in B2 - as above, you can't spend Coffers tokens or pay off debt. but you can pay off debt.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2018, 12:06:06 pm by Jeebus »
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Ingix

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Re: Black Market/Storyteller/Crown with Capitalism/Scepter/Innovation
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2018, 05:08:44 pm »
+2

I don't think there is a restriction on being able to pay off debt in the middle of resolving a B2 Black Market. The wording

Quote
A player removes Debt tokens in the player's Buy phase by paying $1 per Debt token to remove it; this is done after playing Treasures, but can be done both before and after buying cards.

seems to me to express what you summarized before: Paying off debt is restricted to B2.
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Donald X.

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Re: Black Market/Storyteller/Crown with Capitalism/Scepter/Innovation
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2018, 05:34:50 pm »
+1

I don't think there is a restriction on being able to pay off debt in the middle of resolving a B2 Black Market. The wording

Quote
A player removes Debt tokens in the player's Buy phase by paying $1 per Debt token to remove it; this is done after playing Treasures, but can be done both before and after buying cards.

seems to me to express what you summarized before: Paying off debt is restricted to B2.
Correct.
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Jeebus

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Re: Black Market/Storyteller/Crown with Capitalism/Scepter/Innovation
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2018, 06:06:46 pm »
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This wording seems more restrictive than the wording for Coffers or Villagers, which simply say that they can be spent in the appropriate phase. I took it to mean that you can't pay off debt in the middle of playing a Treasure. But then the ruling is instead that it can be done at any time in B2.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 06:07:48 pm by Jeebus »
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markus

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Re: Black Market/Storyteller/Crown with Capitalism/Scepter/Innovation
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2018, 02:45:36 am »
0

I thought that you could pay off debt in B1 Black Market, but you can't play any other treasures afterwards?
(other than in non-standard ways like with the Storyteller that you bought in that Black Market and that gets played with Innovation)

In other words, the transition from B1 to B2 is not something that needs to happen on an empty stack like moving from A to B. But once you buy something / repay debt, you can't play Treasures / use Coffers anymore.
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Donald X.

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Re: Black Market/Storyteller/Crown with Capitalism/Scepter/Innovation
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2018, 03:17:12 am »
+3

I thought that you could pay off debt in B1 Black Market, but you can't play any other treasures afterwards?
(other than in non-standard ways like with the Storyteller that you bought in that Black Market and that gets played with Innovation)

In other words, the transition from B1 to B2 is not something that needs to happen on an empty stack like moving from A to B. But once you buy something / repay debt, you can't play Treasures / use Coffers anymore.
I think I've ruled that way, but now that is seeming overly confusing and fixable.

First you can play Treasures and convert Coffers, then you can buy cards and pay Debt.

Playing Treasures can make all sorts of things happen. Buying cards can make all sorts of things happen. Those things aren't what the buy phase is about though; the buy phase is about "you can play Treasures and then buy a card," and then +Buys let you buy more cards, and expansions add Coffers and Debt and locate them in there.

So, you can't decide "now it's time for the buying cards portion" in the middle of resolving e.g. Capitalism'd-Storyteller, in order to pay Debt then.
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dane-m

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Re: Black Market/Storyteller/Crown with Capitalism/Scepter/Innovation
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2018, 09:13:33 am »
+1

I don't know how best to phrase it instead, but I think you should avoid the phrasing "play X as a Treasure".  When Crown first appeared on the scene, some people got confused about how it worked (primarily when played with Storyteller) because they thought in terms of playing it as an action or playing it as a treasure, instead of thinking in terms of playing it in a particular phase and then doing what it told them to do in that phase.

Perhaps "play X (because it is a Treasure)" might be an alternative phrasing.
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Jeebus

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Re: Black Market/Storyteller/Crown with Capitalism/Scepter/Innovation
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2018, 12:04:44 pm »
0

I don't know how best to phrase it instead, but I think you should avoid the phrasing "play X as a Treasure".  When Crown first appeared on the scene, some people got confused about how it worked (primarily when played with Storyteller) because they thought in terms of playing it as an action or playing it as a treasure, instead of thinking in terms of playing it in a particular phase and then doing what it told them to do in that phase.

Perhaps "play X (because it is a Treasure)" might be an alternative phrasing.

I definitely thought about that, but I thought that it was better to just go for the most straight-forward wording. You can play a Treasure, so you choose X as that Treasure. Hopefully the people who were confused about that (if they read this thread) know how it works now.

EDIT: Well, I changed it now anyway. :)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2018, 12:06:21 pm by Jeebus »
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