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Author Topic: Capitalism and Black Market  (Read 495 times)

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majiponi

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Capitalism and Black Market
« on: November 14, 2018, 08:34:17 am »
0

Maybe someone has asked, but I am not sure.

From Prosperity rulebook:
Quote
During the Buy phase, a player must play all of the Treasures he wishes to play before he buys any cards, even if he has +Buys; he cannot play more Treasures after Buying a card.

Magically buying a card during the treasure-playing portion via Black Market doesn't stop you from playing more treasures afterwards.

I don't see the reason. I think this problem is similar to this one.

You can't buy cards from the Black Market on a Mission turn. "Can't" wins.

Maybe prohibiting another playing makes another problem like...

I Crowned Venture to reveal Black Market. I bought Grand Market. Do I resolve Venture again?
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Chris is me

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Re: Capitalism and Black Market
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2018, 09:06:28 am »
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Buying a card doesn't prevent you from playing any treasures for the rest of the turn. Otherwise, buying any card from the Blck Market would prevent Storyteller or your Buy phase from working.
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faust

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Re: Capitalism and Black Market
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2018, 09:27:24 am »
+1

Buying a card doesn't prevent you from playing any treasures for the rest of the turn. Otherwise, buying any card from the Blck Market would prevent Storyteller or your Buy phase from working.
No; the stated rule only applies during your buy phase. It is however clear from context that the rule is supposed to deal with "regular" buys, and clearly did not anticipate Capitalism (unlike Karl Marx). I think it is simply a case where the rules should be updated in some future edition.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Capitalism and Black Market
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2018, 09:35:52 am »
0

I'm unclear what you are asking, because you say "maybe someone has asked", but then quote the thread where someone asked, and where it was answered.

Donald's ruling was that buying a card from Capitalism'd Black Market in the buy phase was still happening during your "play treasures" part of the buy phase, and that the rulebook is saying that once you move to the "buy cards" part of the buy phase, you cannot go back.
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crj

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Re: Capitalism and Black Market
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2018, 09:44:16 am »
+3

These days, I explain Dominion as having "three or four" phases (ignoring Night for a moment):
  • Action
  • Buy
    • Play treasures
    • Actually buy
  • Clean-up
Viewed that way, things are clear: during "play Treasures" you may play Treasure cards, but not use your Buys; during "actually buy", you may use your Buys but not play Treasure cards.

Throne Room telling you to play a card (twice) does not use up one of your Actions, and would cause you to play an Action card even in circumstances when you normally couldn't (e.g. you buy Throne Room during "actually buy" while you have the Innovation project). The fact you played some Actions doesn't mean you're back in the Action phase - you're still in the "actually buy" sub-phase.

In exactly the same way, if you use Capitalism to play Black Market during "play Treasures" that does not use up one of your Buys, and lets you buy a card even though you couldn't normally. The fact you bought something during "play Treasures" doesn't mean you've moved to the "actually buy" sub-phase - you're still in the "play Treasures" sub-phase.
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majiponi

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Re: Capitalism and Black Market
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2018, 10:14:11 am »
0

These days, I explain Dominion as having "three or four" phases (ignoring Night for a moment):
  • Action
  • Buy
    • Play treasures
    • Actually buy
  • Clean-up
Viewed that way, things are clear: during "play Treasures" you may play Treasure cards, but not use your Buys; during "actually buy", you may use your Buys but not play Treasure cards.

Throne Room telling you to play a card (twice) does not use up one of your Actions, and would cause you to play an Action card even in circumstances when you normally couldn't (e.g. you buy Throne Room during "actually buy" while you have the Innovation project). The fact you played some Actions doesn't mean you're back in the Action phase - you're still in the "actually buy" sub-phase.

In exactly the same way, if you use Capitalism to play Black Market during "play Treasures" that does not use up one of your Buys, and lets you buy a card even though you couldn't normally. The fact you bought something during "play Treasures" doesn't mean you've moved to the "actually buy" sub-phase - you're still in the "play Treasures" sub-phase.

So, I can still play other treasures BECAUSE I am in Play-Treasure phase, and the rule I quoted from Prosperity has got an errata like "after you moved to Actual-Buy phase, you cannot play Treasures", right?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 10:15:54 am by majiponi »
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Ingix

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Re: Capitalism and Black Market
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2018, 10:59:04 am »
0

As far as I understand, that has been the meaning of the rule. The difference between that interpretation and the literal interpretation of the rulebook didn't exist before Renaissance.

I think of those 2 sub-phase of the buy phase as 1. generate money, and 2. spend money. That aligns with the other activities one can do in them: Spending Coffers in sub-phase 1 and paying off debt in subphase 2.
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Donald X.

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Re: Capitalism and Black Market
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2018, 06:59:31 pm »
+3

Maybe someone has asked, but I am not sure.

From Prosperity rulebook:
Quote
During the Buy phase, a player must play all of the Treasures he wishes to play before he buys any cards, even if he has +Buys; he cannot play more Treasures after Buying a card.

Magically buying a card during the treasure-playing portion via Black Market doesn't stop you from playing more treasures afterwards.

I don't see the reason. I think this problem is similar to this one.

You can't buy cards from the Black Market on a Mission turn. "Can't" wins.

Maybe prohibiting another playing makes another problem like...

I Crowned Venture to reveal Black Market. I bought Grand Market. Do I resolve Venture again?
The Prosperity rulebook is just explaining how the Buy phase works (important to explain again there because of the new treasures that do weird things). When it talks about playing treasures it means the normal playing of treasures that the rules let you do, and when it talks about buying cards it means the normal buying of cards that the rules let you do. It's not talking about cards in Dominion that might say "play a treasure" or "buy a card."

Mission meanwhile is a card, with a rule on it. It's not explaining the rules of the game, it's explaining the rules of Mission. Mission says you can't buy, so you can't buy. It directly contradicts Black Market, which says you can buy, and in these cases, where two cards flat-out contradict each other, "can't" wins. This isn't necessary if you phrase things so that only computers can play your game, but the cards have to be phrased for humans.

The Crown - Venture - Black Market buy thing does not prevent Venture from finishing doing what it does.
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Ingix

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Re: Capitalism and Black Market
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2018, 03:32:03 am »
0

The Prosperity rulebook is just explaining how the Buy phase works (important to explain again there because of the new treasures that do weird things). When it talks about playing treasures it means the normal playing of treasures that the rules let you do, and when it talks about buying cards it means the normal buying of cards that the rules let you do. It's not talking about cards in Dominion that might say "play a treasure" or "buy a card."

Wouldn't that also mean that when the Empires rulebook says

Quote
Having Debt tokens prevents a player from buying cards or Events; Debt tokens do nothing else (for example they have no effect at the end of the game).

it is only talking about 'normal' buys, so Black Market buys would be unaffected?
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Donald X.

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Re: Capitalism and Black Market
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2018, 04:27:22 am »
+1

The Prosperity rulebook is just explaining how the Buy phase works (important to explain again there because of the new treasures that do weird things). When it talks about playing treasures it means the normal playing of treasures that the rules let you do, and when it talks about buying cards it means the normal buying of cards that the rules let you do. It's not talking about cards in Dominion that might say "play a treasure" or "buy a card."

Wouldn't that also mean that when the Empires rulebook says

Quote
Having Debt tokens prevents a player from buying cards or Events; Debt tokens do nothing else (for example they have no effect at the end of the game).

it is only talking about 'normal' buys, so Black Market buys would be unaffected?
It somehow doesn't mean that (though it has to also prevent buying Projects). Debt prevents buying and I see no reason for it to only mean normal buys. I don't feel like that's a case where only someone crazy literal-minded would think it prevented Black Market buys; obv. the idea to Debt is to prevent buying things until you pay for it. The Prosperity rulebook meanwhile like the main rulebook explains the Buy phase and simply does not use computer code to do so.

Sorry for whatever inconsistencies there are or appear to be; I have to live with them though, and am sticking with, the Prosperity and main set rulebooks are just explaining the buy phase, which is actually two steps.
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Rabid

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Re: Capitalism and Black Market
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2018, 04:57:58 am »
+1

Would it be worth thinking about changing Black Market?
So that it allows you to pay off debt?
I think a lot of players expect to be able to.
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Ingix

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Re: Capitalism and Black Market
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2018, 09:25:07 am »
+1

Sorry for whatever inconsistencies there are or appear to be; I have to live with them though, and am sticking with, the Prosperity and main set rulebooks are just explaining the buy phase, which is actually two steps.

I find it incredible how consistent the game is using it's language and special terms. It makes the small little holes (like this) look so much bigger than they really are.
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Ingix

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Re: Capitalism and Black Market
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2018, 09:30:28 am »
0

Would it be worth thinking about changing Black Market?
So that it allows you to pay off debt?
I think a lot of players expect to be able to.

About that expectation of players: Are you talking about a 'normal' Black Market in the Action phase or specifically about a Black Market in the buy phase?

For the buy phase Black Market I'd agree, based on the current online implementation and the fact that repaying debt 'too early' had no real benefit before; but that has changed with Renaissance.
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Rabid

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Re: Capitalism and Black Market
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2018, 11:55:36 am »
0

Would it be worth thinking about changing Black Market?
So that it allows you to pay off debt?
I think a lot of players expect to be able to.

About that expectation of players: Are you talking about a 'normal' Black Market in the Action phase or specifically about a Black Market in the buy phase?

For the buy phase Black Market I'd agree, based on the current online implementation and the fact that repaying debt 'too early' had no real benefit before; but that has changed with Renaissance.

I mean on all plays of Black Market, in any phase.
You get to:
Play treasures
Repay Debt
Buy up to 1 of 3 revealed cards
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Donald X.

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Re: Capitalism and Black Market
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2018, 05:26:08 pm »
+1

Sorry for whatever inconsistencies there are or appear to be; I have to live with them though, and am sticking with, the Prosperity and main set rulebooks are just explaining the buy phase, which is actually two steps.

I find it incredible how consistent the game is using it's language and special terms. It makes the small little holes (like this) look so much bigger than they really are.
Thanks; part of it of course is having a big pile of expansions when the main game came out.
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Donald X.

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Re: Capitalism and Black Market
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2018, 05:31:49 pm »
+2

Would it be worth thinking about changing Black Market?
So that it allows you to pay off debt?
I think a lot of players expect to be able to.

About that expectation of players: Are you talking about a 'normal' Black Market in the Action phase or specifically about a Black Market in the buy phase?

For the buy phase Black Market I'd agree, based on the current online implementation and the fact that repaying debt 'too early' had no real benefit before; but that has changed with Renaissance.

I mean on all plays of Black Market, in any phase.
You get to:
Play treasures
Repay Debt
Buy up to 1 of 3 revealed cards
If I changed Black Market, the way to clear up buying-related stuff is to make it not buying. "You may play any number of Treasures. You may pay the cost of one of the revealed cards to gain it." Then it would dodge debt, which wasn't the intention but probably leaves debt still mattering plenty.

If I get to be more revisionist but not go all the way to Tournament, it could modify your Buy phase. Something like: "Reveal 3 cards from the Black Market deck. Choose one; it's available to buy in your Buy phase this turn. If you Buy it, +1 Buy. At the start of Clean-up, put the unbought cards on the bottom of the Black Market deck."
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Jeebus

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Re: Capitalism and Black Market
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2018, 07:01:33 pm »
+2

To me it has always made sense* that Black Market works the way it does with playing Treasures and buying, and with Empires it makes sense that you can't buy from the BM deck when you're in debt.

As Donald said, the rule about playing all your Treasures before you buy cards, is a rule about timing. Although it's phrased with a "cannot", it's not meant as a prohibition. It just means that first you play any Treasures you want, then you buy any cards you want, in that order.

It's like the rule that you play your Treasures in your Buy phase: Effectively it tells you that you can't play them in your Action phase, but it's not meant as a prohibition. It's a timing rule. It just means that there are no rules allowing you to play Treasures in your Action phase. So if a card tells you that you can, you can.

The rule about debt, on the other hand, actually prohibits you from buying anything when you're in debt. It has nothing to do with timing or phases. There is nothing about this rule that signals that it matters what or when you buy, or how or when you accrue debt. If there's ever a card that lets you take debt in return for VP tokens in your Night phase, I'll expect these debt tokens to also prevent all types of buying.

* "always" meaning for the number of years that I've been aware of the two parts of the buy phase, which I've also included in my rules document

silvern

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Re: Capitalism and Black Market
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2018, 12:26:46 am »
+2

Here's a similar question.

--I have bought innovation.
--I buy crown.
--I play crown, choosing a treasure
It seems like this works fine, even though it is, indeed, post-buying a card, since crown directly tells you to play a treasure.
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