Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?  (Read 804 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

dghunter79

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 263
  • Respect: +289
    • View Profile
Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
« on: November 13, 2018, 01:22:06 am »
+1

Someone had to ask.  I really have no idea myself.

faust

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2568
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +3543
    • View Profile
Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2018, 01:39:34 am »
+8

Yes.

Kingdom needs Black Market, Watchtower, Rogue, Mandarin, Storyteller, Capitalism

Mandarin in the trash. Deck: BM, Watchtower, Rogue, Storyteller. Capitalism bought.

Play BM
  Play Storyteller
    Play Rogue gaining Mandarin, trashing with Watchtower
      topdeck Storyteller, BM, Rogue
    draw Rogue, Storyteller, BM from Storyteller

And repeat.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

dghunter79

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 263
  • Respect: +289
    • View Profile
Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2018, 01:55:10 am »
0

Yes.

Kingdom needs Black Market, Watchtower, Rogue, Mandarin, Storyteller, Capitalism

Mandarin in the trash. Deck: BM, Watchtower, Rogue, Storyteller. Capitalism bought.

Play BM
  Play Storyteller
    Play Rogue gaining Mandarin, trashing with Watchtower
      topdeck Storyteller, BM, Rogue
    draw Rogue, Storyteller, BM from Storyteller

And repeat.

Thanks!  But don't you run out of Black Markets this way?

bitwise

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 52
  • Respect: +56
    • View Profile
Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2018, 02:01:24 am »
0

Yes.

Kingdom needs Black Market, Watchtower, Rogue, Mandarin, Storyteller, Capitalism

Mandarin in the trash. Deck: BM, Watchtower, Rogue, Storyteller. Capitalism bought.

Play BM
  Play Storyteller
    Play Rogue gaining Mandarin, trashing with Watchtower
      topdeck Storyteller, BM, Rogue
    draw Rogue, Storyteller, BM from Storyteller

And repeat.

Thanks!  But don't you run out of Black Markets this way?
Gaining the Mandarin recovers the Black Market (and Storyteller and Rogue) from play onto your deck, which lets you draw them and play them again. This loop keeps playing the same Black Market over and over.
Logged

sudgy

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3392
  • Shuffle iT Username: sudgy
  • It's pronounced "SOO-jee"
  • Respect: +2652
    • View Profile
Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2018, 02:12:20 am »
0

Does anybody want to try to crash ShuffleIT?  I'm interested in seeing what would happen.
Logged
If you're wondering what my avatar is, watch this.

Check out my logic puzzle blog!

   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11226
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +11901
    • View Profile
Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2018, 03:25:16 am »
+2

Does anybody want to try to crash ShuffleIT?  I'm interested in seeing what would happen.

I gave up after 64 nested Black Markets still working roughly correctly. The only problem was the log doing this, which it always does when you nest things too much:



The funny thing is that the Black Market deck gets emptied after 20 Black Markets, and then it gets rearranged in the opposite order in groups of 3 when you stop doing the loop.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8122
  • Respect: +8897
    • View Profile
Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2018, 02:21:27 pm »
0

If you play a Black Market while Black Market cards are revealed, is it supposed to reveal the next 3? Revealed cards are supposed to be still considered to have not moved, right? So the top 3 cards would still be the 3 that are currently revealed wouldn't they?

I remember this being discussed before with Lookout trashing Overgrown Estate. Is there a rule out there that says that when a card is revealed from the top of a deck, it is temporarily considered to not still be the top card of that deck?
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11226
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +11901
    • View Profile
Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2018, 09:16:33 pm »
0

If you play a Black Market while Black Market cards are revealed, is it supposed to reveal the next 3? Revealed cards are supposed to be still considered to have not moved, right? So the top 3 cards would still be the 3 that are currently revealed wouldn't they?

If it wasn't supposed to reveal the next 3, then Scrying Pool would never reveal anything beyond the first card (infinitely many times if it happens to be an Action) by the same logic.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8122
  • Respect: +8897
    • View Profile
Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2018, 10:08:16 pm »
0

If you play a Black Market while Black Market cards are revealed, is it supposed to reveal the next 3? Revealed cards are supposed to be still considered to have not moved, right? So the top 3 cards would still be the 3 that are currently revealed wouldn't they?

If it wasn't supposed to reveal the next 3, then Scrying Pool would never reveal anything beyond the first card (infinitely many times if it happens to be an Action) by the same logic.

Good point. So I guess it's just a rule that a revealed (or being looked at) card isn't considered to be on top of your deck for the moment? Or just that to reveal the top card of a deck, you reveal the top not-already-revealed card.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 10:25:48 pm by GendoIkari »
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

faust

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2568
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +3543
    • View Profile
Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2018, 01:43:28 am »
+1

Since with Doctor, you put the revealed card back in any order, it's clear that they have been moved in the process of being revealed.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5269
    • View Profile
Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2018, 04:18:22 am »
0

I remember this being discussed before with Lookout trashing Overgrown Estate. Is there a rule out there that says that when a card is revealed from the top of a deck, it is temporarily considered to not still be the top card of that deck?

Lookouting an Overgrown Estate indeed draws a non-revealed card.

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8122
  • Respect: +8897
    • View Profile
Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2018, 10:08:57 am »
0

Since with Doctor, you put the revealed card back in any order, it's clear that they have been moved in the process of being revealed.

Indeed... but I think it's an inconsistency, because Wishing Well does not tell you to put the revealed card back.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

faust

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2568
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +3543
    • View Profile
Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2018, 10:31:02 am »
0

Since with Doctor, you put the revealed card back in any order, it's clear that they have been moved in the process of being revealed.

Indeed... but I think it's an inconsistency, because Wishing Well does not tell you to put the revealed card back.
I think reveal always comes with an implicit "after finishing revealing, put this back to where you revealed it from". Although I am not sure if it is always clear when the revealing ends exactly.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5269
    • View Profile
Re: Can you infinitely play nesting Black Markets?
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2018, 10:41:09 am »
+1

Since with Doctor, you put the revealed card back in any order, it's clear that they have been moved in the process of being revealed.

Indeed... but I think it's an inconsistency, because Wishing Well does not tell you to put the revealed card back.
I think reveal always comes with an implicit "after finishing revealing, put this back to where you revealed it from". Although I am not sure if it is always clear when the revealing ends exactly.

It does. You are only told to put them back if you can reorder them or if it's one of 3 or more options for where the card can go.
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.075 seconds with 21 queries.