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Author Topic: Spices > Gold  (Read 1668 times)

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ehunt

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Spices > Gold
« on: November 11, 2018, 01:02:42 pm »
+7

Spices are:
- cheaper
- give a + buy
- give two coffers.

On payoff alone, you'd only prefer Gold to Spices if you expected to draw the Gold at least 3 times in a situation where you actually were going to use the extra money.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Spices > Gold
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2018, 01:11:33 pm »
0

I think it's generally accepted at this point that Gold is one of the worst things to buy for $6. Considering how many other things give $ more efficiently, and how many card there are now that give you Gold for free, you only buy Gold if you're truly out of options.
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Awaclus

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Re: Spices > Gold
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2018, 01:34:07 pm »
+3

On payoff alone, you'd only prefer Gold to Spices if you expected to draw the Gold at least 3 times in a situation where you actually were going to use the extra money.

Because of inflation, you might have to expect to draw the Gold significantly more times than that.

I think it's generally accepted at this point that Gold is one of the worst things to buy for $6. Considering how many other things give $ more efficiently, and how many card there are now that give you Gold for free, you only buy Gold if you're truly out of options.

I thought this was ehunt replying to his own thread at first.
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Re: Spices > Gold
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2018, 05:17:26 pm »
+2

I thought this was ehunt replying to his own thread at first.

Guys, this is why I made the card art avatar thread
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Spices > Gold
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2018, 06:57:29 pm »
0

Sorry. I changed my picture to Farmland as a joke a while back and I haven't bothered to change it again.
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aku_chi

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Re: Spices > Gold
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2018, 11:19:08 pm »
+12

ehunt is underselling how good Spices is for money decks.  Wandering Winder pointed out how strong monolithic Spices + money is on Discord; it's about as strong as Gear + money.  The idea is to buy Spices to stockpile a bunch of Coffers to smooth out Province buys.

Strategy
Open with whatever makes it most likely to hit $5 on turn 3.
Buy Spices with your first $5+ hand.
Before turn 7, buy Spices on all $3+ hands.
Turn 7+, buy Province or Spices.  Buy Province on all $7+ hands, probably.  Buy Spices on most $4-5 hands.  On $6 hands (and sometimes others), use your judgement based on your Coffers reserve and how close the game is to ending.
Perhaps this could be refined with some simulation.

Benchmarks
4 Provinces: 11-13 turns
6 Provinces: 14-16 turns
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 11:24:52 pm by aku_chi »
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markusin

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Re: Spices > Gold
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2018, 09:40:51 am »
+3

ehunt is underselling how good Spices is for money decks.  Wandering Winder pointed out how strong monolithic Spices + money is on Discord; it's about as strong as Gear + money.  The idea is to buy Spices to stockpile a bunch of Coffers to smooth out Province buys.

Strategy
Open with whatever makes it most likely to hit $5 on turn 3.
Buy Spices with your first $5+ hand.
Before turn 7, buy Spices on all $3+ hands.
Turn 7+, buy Province or Spices.  Buy Province on all $7+ hands, probably.  Buy Spices on most $4-5 hands.  On $6 hands (and sometimes others), use your judgement based on your Coffers reserve and how close the game is to ending.
Perhaps this could be refined with some simulation.

Benchmarks
4 Provinces: 11-13 turns
6 Provinces: 14-16 turns

This doesn't surprise me. I think we underrated the impact of Coffers in money because Guilds didn't have much in terms of Coffers that offer a big boost to money decks. Specifically, the Coffers in Guilds were on cards that have to be played to get them, which takes a whole shuffle, and Merchant Guild is a poor fit for money decks. Even there, Butcher is a decent boost to money decks, though it enables a bunch of other stuff so it's impact on money is perhaps less relevant.

Now Renaissance, it has cards that give you Coffers for buying things and thus become available the very next turn. I believe that Guildhall also has potential to boast similar results for money decks with even modest synergy, for similar reasons as Spices. These cards basically reward money deck with Coffers for doing the things that the money deck wants to do anyway.
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Iridium

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Re: Spices > Gold
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2018, 04:29:45 pm »
0

How good is Gold if you don't have to buy it?
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ConMan

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Re: Spices > Gold
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2018, 05:01:55 pm »
+5

How good is Gold if you don't have to buy it?
Good as Gold, presumably.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Spices > Gold
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2018, 07:40:29 pm »
+1

How good is Gold if you don't have to buy it?

Much better but still a mixed bag. A lot of engines simply don't like Treasures at all, and even if your deck likes Gold it still needs to be strong enough to draw all of them. Also, the best use for Gold usually isn't playing it but feeding it to trash-for-proportional-benefit cards (remodelers, Apprentice, etc.) Like all cards, you have to ask if it will be more useful than harmful before getting it.
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ipofanes

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Re: Spices > Gold
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2018, 03:37:25 am »
+1

Contraband had its use cases on boards with Grand Markets, alternate VP, or sometimes Colonies, especially with no other sources of +buy in the kingdom.

I'd be hard pressed to construct a Kingdom with Contraband and Spices where the first would be considered. This is really close to "strictly better".
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 03:39:10 am by ipofanes »
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Awaclus

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Re: Spices > Gold
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2018, 03:59:55 am »
0

Contraband had its use cases on boards with Grand Markets, alternate VP, or sometimes Colonies, especially with no other sources of +buy in the kingdom.

How does Grand Market help? Seems like a reason to ignore Contraband if anything, since you can get your +buy from that.
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ipofanes

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Re: Spices > Gold
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2018, 05:10:33 am »
+3

How does Grand Market help?

To eke out the copperless $6 ASAP. If they block GM, play all your coppers and buy two other useful cards.

Again, to eke out the first $6 ASAP Spices is so much better.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 05:11:53 am by ipofanes »
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faust

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Re: Spices > Gold
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2018, 08:06:55 am »
+3

I'd be hard pressed to construct a Kingdom with Contraband and Spices where the first would be considered. This is really close to "strictly better".
Just add some Events and Projects. Contraband can always buy those. On Dominate boards, I could see a Contraband > Spices case.
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napking24

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Re: Spices > Gold
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2018, 02:27:03 pm »
0

I gave spices a 7.

My initiial reaction with Spices (and Silk Merchant as well) is that as I get better at Dominion, I'm starting to heavily value any card that gives +buy. Having this effect on a treasure is always appealing since you don't have to waste action space on it. I guessed that my rating of 7 was likely overvalued, AdamHorton releasing his poll results supported that idea, but this thread is making me realize that 7 is where it should be.
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Awaclus

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Re: Spices > Gold
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2018, 09:28:27 pm »
0

How does Grand Market help?

To eke out the copperless $6 ASAP. If they block GM, play all your coppers and buy two other useful cards. it doesn't even matter that GM was in the kingdom.

FTFY
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ackmondual

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Re: Spices > Gold
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2018, 08:30:57 pm »
+1

How good is Gold if you don't have to buy it?
It almost sounds like Gold should've been $5, and Spices $6!
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Donald X.

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Re: Spices > Gold
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2018, 01:16:53 am »
+9

How good is Gold if you don't have to buy it?
It almost sounds like Gold should've been $5, and Spices $6!
The cards you can only sometimes buy have to be better than the ones you always can.
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Simon Jester

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Re: Spices > Gold
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2018, 04:57:48 am »
+1

How good is Gold if you don't have to buy it?
It almost sounds like Gold should've been $5, and Spices $6!
The cards you can only sometimes buy have to be better than the ones you always can.

Well, the issue (if one would think it is one) isn't so much that Spices is better than Gold, but that the other 5 treasures looks rather sad against it. It feels like a 6-cost card in many ways.

Anyhow it is too me a very minor problem, an OP-strong treasure is not nearly as oppresive as a dito action card for some reason. Spices-games are fun still!

Awaclus

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Re: Spices > Gold
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2018, 05:04:12 am »
0

Well, the issue (if one would think it is one) isn't so much that Spices is better than Gold, but that the other 5 treasures looks rather sad against it. It feels like a 6-cost card in many ways.

A lot of 5 treasures look rather happy against it, and things like Royal Seal and Contraband just look sad in general.
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Simon Jester

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Re: Spices > Gold
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2018, 06:53:14 am »
0

Well, the issue (if one would think it is one) isn't so much that Spices is better than Gold, but that the other 5 treasures looks rather sad against it. It feels like a 6-cost card in many ways.

A lot of 5 treasures look rather happy against it, and things like Royal Seal and Contraband just look sad in general.

Hm. I think I disagree. Take Counterfeit and Treasure Trove, two stellar cards in their right environment: They cost $5, sure, but they come with a price in the way that if you don't know/dare to utilize Counterfeit more than trashing coppers you have a 5 moneylender or if you don't know how to deal with the coppers Treasure Trove is probably the wrong move. I can't see any such downside with Spices, when it's right to buy it, it seems rather risquefree to me. 

Awaclus

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Re: Spices > Gold
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2018, 07:59:48 am »
+2

Well, the issue (if one would think it is one) isn't so much that Spices is better than Gold, but that the other 5 treasures looks rather sad against it. It feels like a 6-cost card in many ways.

A lot of 5 treasures look rather happy against it, and things like Royal Seal and Contraband just look sad in general.

Hm. I think I disagree. Take Counterfeit and Treasure Trove, two stellar cards in their right environment: They cost $5, sure, but they come with a price in the way that if you don't know/dare to utilize Counterfeit more than trashing coppers you have a 5 moneylender or if you don't know how to deal with the coppers Treasure Trove is probably the wrong move. I can't see any such downside with Spices, when it's right to buy it, it seems rather risquefree to me.

A $5 non-terminal Moneylender that can't be drawn dead and provides +buy, on its own, is super strong because it fits very neatly into an engine build order and provides two crucial things that turn weak engines into strong ones. The only thing Spices does for an engine is the +buy.

Treasure Trove is one of the cards that just look sad in general.
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Simon Jester

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Re: Spices > Gold
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2018, 08:39:49 am »
0

Well, the issue (if one would think it is one) isn't so much that Spices is better than Gold, but that the other 5 treasures looks rather sad against it. It feels like a 6-cost card in many ways.

A lot of 5 treasures look rather happy against it, and things like Royal Seal and Contraband just look sad in general.

Hm. I think I disagree. Take Counterfeit and Treasure Trove, two stellar cards in their right environment: They cost $5, sure, but they come with a price in the way that if you don't know/dare to utilize Counterfeit more than trashing coppers you have a 5 moneylender or if you don't know how to deal with the coppers Treasure Trove is probably the wrong move. I can't see any such downside with Spices, when it's right to buy it, it seems rather risquefree to me.

A $5 non-terminal Moneylender that can't be drawn dead and provides +buy, on its own, is super strong because it fits very neatly into an engine build order and provides two crucial things that turn weak engines into strong ones. The only thing Spices does for an engine is the +buy.

Treasure Trove is one of the cards that just look sad in general.

Yeah. For 5. Trashing for five is problematic and SHOULD be superstrong.

Treasure Trove is a Gardens- enabler, it is a frekkin dream with Keep or Palace as well.

ackmondual

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Re: Spices > Gold
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2018, 07:05:28 pm »
0

How good is Gold if you don't have to buy it?
It almost sounds like Gold should've been $5, and Spices $6!
The cards you can only sometimes buy have to be better than the ones you always can.
Agreed.  I was also hinting that the Spices could've gotten away with being $6 as well.
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Donald X.

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Re: Spices > Gold
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2018, 11:15:39 pm »
+2

How good is Gold if you don't have to buy it?
It almost sounds like Gold should've been $5, and Spices $6!
The cards you can only sometimes buy have to be better than the ones you always can.
Agreed.  I was also hinting that the Spices could've gotten away with being $6 as well.
It's vice-versa. Cards try to get away with being cheaper when possible. Spices got away with costing $5.

What's the effect of costing $6 instead of $5? You can't* open with it; not an issue here, it's fun to consider opening with Spices. It delays how soon you can get it - not important here. And it means you just see the card less often, because you have to have $6 to get it, in addition to wanting it over other options. So, I'm not seeing the pull of charging $6 here.
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