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Author Topic: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List  (Read 9358 times)

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Seprix

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Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« on: November 08, 2018, 04:18:06 pm »
+7

Let's talk about Peasant, why it is my number one candidate for most hated card in Dominion, and why it will be my first official selection for the Banlist once ShuffleIT implements it.

1. Centralizing

We all know you can't often play a Peasant board without buying one. In fact, it's often a cause for celebration when you don't have to! Peasant offers the same song and dance every time, and there's nothing you can do about it but play it the way you always do. Now this is not reason enough to ban a card, as there are plenty of cards that do in fact do this.

2. Incredibly Swingy

Oh, what's that? You bottomdecked your traveller and now you're toast. Oh, what's that? You took a calculated gamble drawing 2 cards dead with a 15 card shuffle and you drew your Traveller. Oh, what's that? You drew Disciple without any actions? Oh, what's that? You drew Teacher on the very bottom of the shuffle, and despite your opponent getting Teacher much later than you, he drew it on his first turn and activated before you. Oh, what's that? You lost to a mediocre player for no reason other than how your shuffles went. My heart races with fear every time I roll Peasant on a board. Will I likely lose for no reason at all other than a random arrangement of cards?

3. Ease of Play

But you might remark, "but you can outplay a bad build! You can outplay a mediocre player." And indeed, you certainly can. But real talk, how hard is it to play Peasant, really? You buy Peasant more than once, mass up a ton of a single kind of card, and then slap on +Card and +Action, and if you at any point falter due to a bad shuffle, you're probably just straight up toast. There's no such thing as a bad Peasant build if you play with common sense (please don't make Treasure Map jokes, you know exactly what I mean). There's only more efficient builds, and less efficient ones.

4. Super Long Turns

All of the previous points are claims you can make about Rebuild, or Money strategies. Here's one you can't make: Length of time. Seriously, for all of the annoyances Rebuild and Money games provide, at least they end quick. You're waiting for a century when your opponent calls his teacher, places his token on a card, and then proceeds to play out his turn, optimizing all of the way (either in ways that are actually optimization or ways that are not, which only annoys you further) and eeking out extra plays, while he's up by a trillion and you still didn't play your first Teacher yet. Like why continue at that point?

5. False Hope

Always play out the games. Always play to your outs. Don't give up. You might just win. Yeah, that'll never happen. Peasant gives you false hope that you might be able to crawl back. "WOW, he put that token THERE???" And yet it doesn't matter. He's drawing his deck, and you're not. You can optimize all you like, but the man is up 4 Provinces and will never dud again.

6. A Realization

With all of this in mind, you roll a Peasant board and win easily. And then you have a chilling thought. Did you win because you outplayed your opponent, or because your opponent missed a shuffle with his traveller? Boy, that blows. You won a game for no other reason than RNGesus decreed it.

Closing

Is Peasant the worst, most unfair, most unbalanced card in Dominion? No. But when you get whacked by it, you'll scramble for answers. You'll look at everything you did. You'll agonize for weeks on that loss, that one loss that could have been. And as it turns out, you did nothing wrong. You just didn't shuffle right.
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mameluke

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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2018, 04:22:35 pm »
+2

Will I likely lose for no reason at all other than a random arrangement of cards?

I mean, this is a good chunk of Dominion in general.
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Seprix

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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2018, 04:25:38 pm »
0

Will I likely lose for no reason at all other than a random arrangement of cards?

I mean, this is a good chunk of Dominion in general.

Not nearly to the extent of Peasant.
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Holunder9

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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2018, 04:41:27 pm »
+2

You could say the same about many cards in the game. Play a Chapel game, one player manages to trash 3 Estates and 1 Copper on turn 3 or 4 while the other manages to draw Chapel on turn 5. Arguably the game is already over.
I cannot judge Renaissance yet but if you play with Nocturne there is some serious speeding up going on with some Heirlooms, the game becomes a bit more moneyish and and Peasant becomes on average slighty weaker. Of course ou are totally right that the number of Kingdoms in which Peasant can be ignored is smaller than the number of Kingdoms in which it can but it is not an autobuy. That Teacher dude is slow, education takes a long time.
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2018, 05:17:32 pm »
+4

Not sure if [Serious]
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2018, 07:37:33 pm »
+5

Peasant offers the same song and dance every time, and there's nothing you can do about it but play it the way you always do.

The statement I disagreed with most. Peasant offers lots of interesting choices more often than not. Do you put +Action on the terminal draw to make a Lab or on the cantrip because there's no villages? Etc. All the new choices it opens up make up for the fact that the choice of buying the card itself it is trivial, in my opinion. It is also not "centralizing", because you cannot win just by buying it and nothing else, unlike e.g. Rebuild. The whole source of its power, in fact, is the way it interacts with other cards. It's for these reasons that I love Peasant despite its OPness.
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avorian

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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2018, 08:10:55 pm »
0

It is also not "centralizing", because you cannot win just by buying it and nothing else, unlike e.g. Rebuild. The whole source of its power, in fact, is the way it interacts with other cards. It's for these reasons that I love Peasant despite its OPness.

Obviously precise definitions for things are in short supply, but at least as "centralizing" was used in jsh's tier listings of cards it doesn't mean that you only buy that card. It means that you almost always "build the strategy around this card".

This is certainly not universal, but I think people tend to refer to the rebuild type of things as "monolithic".
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connorbr011

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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2018, 08:41:31 pm »
0

What about Page? Its at least as centralizing as Peasant, and at least in my experience, makes for less interesting games. Page has more autoplay than Peasant, while having the same degree of reliance on shuffle luck. Just my two cents.
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Seprix

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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2018, 09:44:45 pm »
0

Peasant offers the same song and dance every time, and there's nothing you can do about it but play it the way you always do.

The statement I disagreed with most. Peasant offers lots of interesting choices more often than not. Do you put +Action on the terminal draw to make a Lab or on the cantrip because there's no villages? Etc. All the new choices it opens up make up for the fact that the choice of buying the card itself it is trivial, in my opinion.

Man I hope Peasant offers more interesting choices than that. (spoiler: it does) but it's more like, you do pretty similarish stuff with only a tiny amount of things for optimization. Maybe you delay the Teacher a shuffle.

Quote
It is also not "centralizing"

lol

What about Page? Its at least as centralizing as Peasant, and at least in my experience, makes for less interesting games. Page has more autoplay than Peasant, while having the same degree of reliance on shuffle luck. Just my two cents.

I knew this one would come up, and hilariously enough I have about the opposite take on it. I know, it makes no sense. It makes no sense to me either. But it's how I currently feel. It has its nonsense games though. I feel like somehow, the swingy nonsense is much less likely for the Page line than the Peasant line.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2018, 10:20:11 pm »
+1

On my two cost cards, I have Peasant ranked number one. It is very swingy, but I don't hate it.
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Chappy7

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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2018, 02:01:34 am »
0

Peasant offers the same song and dance every time, and there's nothing you can do about it but play it the way you always do.

The statement I disagreed with most. Peasant offers lots of interesting choices more often than not. Do you put +Action on the terminal draw to make a Lab or on the cantrip because there's no villages? Etc. All the new choices it opens up make up for the fact that the choice of buying the card itself it is trivial, in my opinion.



Man I hope Peasant offers more interesting choices than that. (spoiler: it does) but it's more like, you do pretty similarish stuff with only a tiny amount of things for optimization. Maybe you delay the Teacher a shuffle.

Quote
It is also not "centralizing"

lol

What about Page? Its at least as centralizing as Peasant, and at least in my experience, makes for less interesting games. Page has more autoplay than Peasant, while having the same degree of reliance on shuffle luck. Just my two cents.

I knew this one would come up, and hilariously enough I have about the opposite take on it. I know, it makes no sense. It makes no sense to me either. But it's how I currently feel. It has its nonsense games though. I feel like somehow, the swingy nonsense is much less likely for the Page line than the Peasant line.
While I think peasant is definitely more OP, I also think it is more fun.  I hate Page.  I hate the Warriors can trash Warriors, which is just begging for trouble.  I hate the abilities of the whole page line.  I'd much rather see peasant on the board than Page.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 11:56:33 am by Chappy7 »
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2018, 03:13:27 am »
+2

With how many players do you usually play?
In 2-player games I usually ban Peasant because you almost always won't be able to win without it and must style your deck around the line.
In 3- and 4-player games it's a different case. The game ends more quickly so you may not be able to get enough benefit out of token'd cards before the game ends to be worth the build-up. I remember a 4-player game where I tried to reach Teacher as fast as I could, but the game ended the turn after I placed a token.
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markus

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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2018, 05:31:48 am »
+12

Peasant stands out as one of the cards that favour the better player the most in my sample of logs.

If you usually beat your opponent in 60% of the games, you'll win 63.5% of the Peasant boards.
(Page also favours the better player but not as much, Chapel on the other hand makes the weaker player win more than expected.)
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2018, 05:37:16 am »
0

Peasant stands out as one of the cards that favour the better player the most in my sample of logs.

If you usually beat your opponent in 60% of the games, you'll win 63.5% of the Peasant boards.
(Page also favours the better player but not as much, Chapel on the other hand makes the weaker player win more than expected.)

Myth busted. :P

Maybe you just suck with Peasant? Everyone has cards they're not good with. I always lose Black Market games somehow.
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Oyvind

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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2018, 07:34:19 am »
0

Peasant stands out as one of the cards that favour the better player the most in my sample of logs.

If you usually beat your opponent in 60% of the games, you'll win 63.5% of the Peasant boards.
(Page also favours the better player but not as much, Chapel on the other hand makes the weaker player win more than expected.)

Interesting, that actually surprises me too.
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2018, 11:01:06 am »
+1

I find Peasant games rather fun. I mean, Donate is centralizing too, but it leads to a different sort of games. There are still a lot of important choices to make with the Peasant line: When do you get the second/third Peasant? What do I put my first token on, and how does it work with Disciple? Is the Soldier stack a thing here?

That said, Page is perhaps more interesting in that there is a clear downside to pursing the line, as before you reach champion you get bloated with a bunch of Treasure. The upside is that the Page line is great for ramping up treasure payload quickly.
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ackmondual

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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2018, 03:42:34 pm »
0

If nothing else, I've used Peasant to get alternatives to Labs and Throne Rooms
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2018, 04:29:47 pm »
+17

Let's talk about King's Court, why it is my number one candidate for most hated card in Dominion, and why it will be my first official selection for the Banlist once ShuffleIT implements it.

1. Centralizing

We all know you can't often play a King's Court board without buying one. In fact, it's often a cause for celebration when you don't have to! KC offers the same song and dance every time, and there's nothing you can do about it but play it the way you always do. Now this is not reason enough to ban a card, as there are plenty of cards that do in fact do this.

2. Incredibly Swingy

Oh, what's that? You bottomdecked your King's Court and now you're toast. Oh, what's that? You took a calculated gamble drawing 2 cards dead with a 15 card shuffle and you drew your King's Court. Oh, what's that? You drew KC without any actions? Oh, what's that? You drew KC on the very bottom of the shuffle, and despite your opponent getting KC much later than you, he drew it on his first turn and activated before you. Oh, what's that? You lost to a mediocre player for no reason other than how your shuffles went. My heart races with fear every time I roll King's Court on a board. Will I likely lose for no reason at all other than a random arrangement of cards?

3. Ease of Play

But you might remark, "but you can outplay a bad build! You can outplay a mediocre player." And indeed, you certainly can. But real talk, how hard is it to play King's Court, really? You buy King's Court more than once, mass up a ton of the right cards, and then slap a King's Courted King's Court on it, and if you at any point falter due to a bad shuffle, you're probably just straight up toast. There's no such thing as a bad KC build if you play with common sense (please don't make Treasure Map jokes, you know exactly what I mean). There's only more efficient builds, and less efficient ones.

4. Super Long Turns

All of the previous points are claims you can make about Rebuild, or Money strategies. Here's one you can't make: Length of time. Seriously, for all of the annoyances Rebuild and Money games provide, at least they end quick. You're waiting for a century when your opponent plays his King's Court, picks what action to triple, and then proceeds to play out his turn, optimizing all of the way (either in ways that are actually optimization or ways that are not, which only annoys you further) and eeking out extra plays, while he's up by a trillion and you still didn't play your first King's Court yet. Like why continue at that point?

5. False Hope

Always play out the games. Always play to your outs. Don't give up. You might just win. Yeah, that'll never happen. KC gives you false hope that you might be able to crawl back. "WOW, he tripled THAT Action???" And yet it doesn't matter. He's drawing his deck, and you're not. You can optimize all you like, but the man is up 4 Provinces and will never dud again.

6. A Realization

With all of this in mind, you roll a KC board and win easily. And then you have a chilling thought. Did you win because you outplayed your opponent, or because your opponent missed a shuffle? Boy, that blows. You won a game for no other reason than RNGesus decreed it.

Closing

Is King's Court the worst, most unfair, most unbalanced card in Dominion? No. But when you get whacked by it, you'll scramble for answers. You'll look at everything you did. You'll agonize for weeks on that loss, that one loss that could have been. And as it turns out, you did nothing wrong. You just didn't shuffle right.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2018, 04:58:25 pm »
+7

You buy Peasant more than once, mass up a ton of a single kind of card, and then slap on +Card and +Action, and if you at any point falter due to a bad shuffle, you're probably just straight up toast.

Teacher won't let you put two tokens on a single pile. It doesn't invalidate your opinions, but you might want to update your rant.  ;)
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2018, 05:36:00 pm »
+1

4. Super Long Turns

All of the previous points are claims you can make about Rebuild, or Money strategies. Here's one you can't make: Length of time. Seriously, for all of the annoyances Rebuild and Money games provide, at least they end quick. You're waiting for a century when your opponent plays his King's Court, picks what action to triple, and then proceeds to play out his turn, optimizing all of the way (either in ways that are actually optimization or ways that are not, which only annoys you further) and eeking out extra plays, while he's up by a trillion and you still didn't play your first King's Court yet. Like why continue at that point?


Well, I appreciate the comparison but this part ain't really true. If you're behind with KC it will mostly be over before you know it.

But yeah, power-cards are fine, as long as they need support or power up other cards they are not at all "centralizing". How often is the peasant-line the ONLY thing you buy? Comparing with Page, it's not too uncommon to only rely on it since it provides both draw and payload, with peasant you always need to find a way to use the line optimally somewehere else. You may of course dislike the card how much you want, but to call it centralizing is merely plain wrong..
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Seprix

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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2018, 05:39:35 pm »
+1

...

Not clever.

You buy Peasant more than once, mass up a ton of a single kind of card, and then slap on +Card and +Action, and if you at any point falter due to a bad shuffle, you're probably just straight up toast.

Teacher won't let you put two tokens on a single pile. It doesn't invalidate your opinions, but you might want to update your rant.  ;)

You know what I mean.

I find Peasant games rather fun. I mean, Donate is centralizing too, but it leads to a different sort of games. There are still a lot of important choices to make with the Peasant line: When do you get the second/third Peasant? What do I put my first token on, and how does it work with Disciple? Is the Soldier stack a thing here?

That said, Page is perhaps more interesting in that there is a clear downside to pursing the line, as before you reach champion you get bloated with a bunch of Treasure. The upside is that the Page line is great for ramping up treasure payload quickly.

Yes, those are all real things, and if annoying shuffles don't happen those certainly come much more into focus. The really fun stuff is the Soldier stacks.

Peasant stands out as one of the cards that favor the better player the most in my sample of logs.

If you usually beat your opponent in 60% of the games, you'll win 63.5% of the Peasant boards.
(Page also favors the better player but not as much, Chapel on the other hand makes the weaker player win more than expected.)

Huh. Well there you have it.

With how many players do you usually play?
In 2-player games I usually ban Peasant because you almost always won't be able to win without it and must style your deck around the line.
In 3- and 4-player games it's a different case. The game ends more quickly so you may not be able to get enough benefit out of token'd cards before the game ends to be worth the build-up. I remember a 4-player game where I tried to reach Teacher as fast as I could, but the game ended the turn after I placed a token.

Anything that isn't 2 Player is something I typically never do.

Maybe you just suck with Peasant? Everyone has cards they're not good with. I always lose Black Market games somehow.

Yes, I suppose I could suck with Peasant. I think I am perfectly competent with Peasant. Markus will probably have stats on me though that could prove otherwise.

But yeah, power-cards are fine, as long as they need support or power up other cards they are not at all "centralizing". How often is the peasant-line the ONLY thing you buy? Comparing with Page, it's not too uncommon to only rely on it since it provides both draw and payload, with peasant you always need to find a way to use the line optimally somewhere else. You may of course dislike the card how much you want, but to call it centralizing is merely plain wrong..

You buy other cards with Goons, with KC, with just about anything else. I guess they're not "centralizing". I do not understand this point at all. Dominion rewards diversity like nothing else, but you are always picking up a Peasant unless the board absolutely sucks, and even then sometimes devil magic makes it work.

The complaint isn't really just that it's centralizing, it's one tiny part of the complete package that is "wellp I'm a goner now on this no trash board with no outs".
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Holunder9

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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2018, 05:58:05 pm »
0

I do not understand this point at all. Dominion rewards diversity like nothing else, but you are always picking up a Peasant unless the board absolutely sucks, and even then sometimes devil magic makes it work.
Hunting Grounds, Minion, Sauna/Avanto, there are numerous cards in Dominion which support mono-card strategies.

Adventures indeed does not but events like Lost Arts or Pathfinding are far more radical than Peasant-Teacher here. Teacher sometimes spreads around more than 1 token in which case you need several copies of more than just one card in your deck. Sometimes it makes sense to keep a Peasant around as source of extra Buys, sometimes you can afford to gift the Buy token to a pile.

Compared to a Minion game this really is anything but "centralizing".
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2018, 05:59:12 pm »
0

Yes, I suppose I could suck with Peasant. I think I am perfectly competent with Peasant. Markus will probably have stats on me though that could prove otherwise.
I could look that up, but it would only be around 15 Peasant games that I have for you. So probably, there's not going to be anything statistically significant there - unless you really suck and lost like almost all of them.
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2018, 06:09:41 pm »
0

I felt like I understood Seprix's argument better and felt more sympathy towards it, when Peasant was replaced with King's Court.
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2018, 06:21:17 pm »
0


But yeah, power-cards are fine, as long as they need support or power up other cards they are not at all "centralizing". How often is the peasant-line the ONLY thing you buy? Comparing with Page, it's not too uncommon to only rely on it since it provides both draw and payload, with peasant you always need to find a way to use the line optimally somewhere else. You may of course dislike the card how much you want, but to call it centralizing is merely plain wrong..

You buy other cards with Goons, with KC, with just about anything else. I guess they're not "centralizing". I do not understand this point at all. Dominion rewards diversity like nothing else, but you are always picking up a Peasant unless the board absolutely sucks, and even then sometimes devil magic makes it work.

The complaint isn't really just that it's centralizing, it's one tiny part of the complete package that is "wellp I'm a goner now on this no trash board with no outs".

Yes, but the fact that you have to buy it is not an argument for calling it centralizing, it's only admitting that it is a power-card and I think no one would argue you on that. Some cards are on the level that you must buy it and yeah, it sucks if you're not found of the card. If you would argue that Peasant is perhaps the strongest card in the game in that regard I would understand you, but it's not centralizing the game because of it. There is plenty of decisions to be made after opening with peasant. 

To argue about it's swingyness is a bit silly to me, isn't that just.. Dominion? The KC-comparison is relevant especially in that regard. Falling behind in a power-card game is devastating. Yes, we know. And..?

But hate on. And please ban-list, you can't come sooner. *stares at Sauna*   
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Titandrake

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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2018, 06:49:52 pm »
+6

...

Not clever.


It wasn't clear to me whether you were being serious. It's hard to trust a person who decides writing a joke article about Pathfinding + Cursed Village is a good idea. I decided to troll back.

It's now clear to me that yes you were actually serious and okay I'll take this seriously now.

My take is that you have a point that is wrapped up in a lot of complaining that isn't actually important for your argument.

The TL;DR of your post is something like, "The Peasant line is very strong, so you always have to go for it, and if you miss a Traveller upgrade, or your Traveller upgrade misses the shuffle, then you're really far behind and the game isn't even close to ending because you still have to wait for them to hit Teacher first." That's not the whole TL;DR but it's most of it. But like, you haven't even written any of this. You've written around this point by complaining about a hypothetical player who's worse than you but is winning because of better luck. This certainly happens but complaining about a person who's only winning because of luck is the fastest way to make you sound petty.

If Peasant really is your number one most hated card in Dominion, it isn't enough to list reasons why Peasant is annoying, you have to list reasons why other cards aren't as annoying. Off the top of my head, why not KC or Swindler or Tournament or Cultist? I don't want hot takes, I want well argued hot takes.
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Donald X.

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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2018, 06:58:09 pm »
+14

The beauty of having a ban list - or playing irl where everyone has it - is that there can be cool fun cards like Peasant and King's Court and people who hate them don't have to play with them.
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Holunder9

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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2018, 06:59:27 pm »
+1

You've written around this point by complaining about a hypothetical player who's worse than you but is winning because of better luck.
It is also, if take markus' data as correct and representative which I cannot judge, factually wrong.
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Seprix

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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2018, 07:33:58 pm »
+1

Hunting Grounds, Minion, Sauna/Avanto, there are numerous cards in Dominion which support mono-card strategies.

Adventures indeed does not but events like Lost Arts or Pathfinding are far more radical than Peasant-Teacher here. Teacher sometimes spreads around more than 1 token in which case you need several copies of more than just one card in your deck. Sometimes it makes sense to keep a Peasant around as source of extra Buys, sometimes you can afford to gift the Buy token to a pile.

Compared to a Minion game this really is anything but "centralizing".

I'm guessing you mean LurkerGrounds by mono-strategy, because Hunting Grounds is never going to be a mono strategy, let alone centralizing.

Okay, let me define centralizing in this context, because there appears to be some confusion. If you can pretty much never skip it, it's centralizing. I'm talking overalls here, not single boards, not mono strategies.

Lost Arts and Pathfinding (except with Cursed Village) are absolutely not more radical than Teacher. Maybe I'm misunderstanding radical, but those two cards are so much less swingy?

It wasn't clear to me whether you were being serious. It's hard to trust a person who decides writing a joke article about Pathfinding + Cursed Village is a good idea. I decided to troll back.

It's now clear to me that yes you were actually serious and okay I'll take this seriously now.

My take is that you have a point that is wrapped up in a lot of complaining that isn't actually important for your argument.

The TL;DR of your post is something like, "The Peasant line is very strong, so you always have to go for it, and if you miss a Traveller upgrade, or your Traveller upgrade misses the shuffle, then you're really far behind and the game isn't even close to ending because you still have to wait for them to hit Teacher first." That's not the whole TL;DR but it's most of it. But like, you haven't even written any of this. You've written around this point by complaining about a hypothetical player who's worse than you but is winning because of better luck. This certainly happens but complaining about a person who's only winning because of luck is the fastest way to make you sound petty.

If Peasant really is your number one most hated card in Dominion, it isn't enough to list reasons why Peasant is annoying, you have to list reasons why other cards aren't as annoying. Off the top of my head, why not KC or Swindler or Tournament or Cultist? I don't want hot takes, I want well argued hot takes.

I still can't believe Pathfinding/Cursed Village isn't an obvious joke.

Well the real thing here is there's no point writing well-structured arguments on why you hate a card. Yeah, what applies to Peasant applies to other situations in Dominion, but Peasant in many ways encapsulates every one of those annoyances, all into one set of cards. Especially with no trashing. Play a set of Peasant games without any trashing. Ugh.

The point about having to justify my hatred for one card over other cards is really weird and makes no sense. Maybe I don't hate King's Court at all. You seem to think that it deserves it. I mean yeah there's those nonsense no trashing boards where you never connect KC-thing and the other guy does. Boy those suck hard. But King's Court isn't a card I hate. See, King's Court offers a wide swath of strategies and ways to play, and you have to play creatively and outside of the box quite often. With Peasant, it's brain-dead, there's not a lot of decisions that truly matter. Swindler? Yeah, Swindler is annoying. But everyone knows it's chaos incarnate. I guess I logically have to hate it as much as Peasant, except I don't, because that's not how this works.

Long story short, I don't think I could write a thesis on Peasant hatred that an English professor would be satisfied with. I guess that means I have no ultimate point. I dunno, at least this started an interesting discussion. That's nice, I like seeing conversations.
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2018, 07:46:52 pm »
0

Maybe I'm misunderstanding radical, but those two cards are so much less swingy?
Most def. If the data says that the card is one of the most skill-dependent one that's the total opposite of your claim, namely that it is one of the most luck-dependent ones.


Quote
With Peasant, it's brain-dead, there's not a lot of decisions that truly matter.
Again, the data seems to disagree with you. And it is pretty obvious that Peasant, or Traveller lines in general, are one of  the most difficult cards to handle well. For example in a Kingdom without additional sources of extra buys, you have to judge whether you have the time to put the Buy token on a card or whether you have to add a Peasant (as a Herbalist) to your deck. This isn't trivial.
You could easily miss, in Kingdoms with other Attacks that Soldier could become a good payload card. But even if you see this you still gotta time a late Page buy well.

Dominion is game with luck and a game without anti-kingmaking mechanisms. So an explosive, snowballing engine card like  KC or Peasant can appear to be unfair or whatever. That's no reason to ramble though. It is not as if Peasant is Rebuild or Cultist level strong.
It is like playing Base, you draw your Chapel on turn 5 whereas the other dude draws it on turn 3 and trashes 3 Estates. Does this mean that Chapel is bad?


See, King's Court offers a wide swath of strategies and ways to play, and you have to play creatively and outside of the box quite often.
Eh, compared to Peasant, nope. Get some KCs, when you play them KC the (situationally) best card in your hand. End of story.
And yes, this is intentional hyperbole. Of course it is not that simple. But the notion that Peasant is more simple to play than the supposedly hypercreative King's Court is pretty ludicrous.
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Titandrake

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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2018, 08:19:26 pm »
+3

Honestly, I don't think the data is this big smoking gun. The old wisdom (idk if this is still true) is that Tournament and Black Market, two cards known for being swingy, are also both cards that make the better player win more often. The distinction is how swingy they are in the game, and how swingy they are across games.

Here's a simplified scenario. Let's assume that the reason good players win more with Black Market is because they can identify more cards that are important. So say, 20% of Black Market plays win them the game, instead of just 10%. These are just random numbers, don't read into them too much. Then, a better player wins more often because they can identify the extra 10% of wins that weaker players don't. But within the single game, it still looks like "Oh, I got the right Black Market buy and they didn't. That's no fun." Having better odds of pressing the "you win" button doesn't make actually pressing the "you win" button more fun, because there's no art in pressing a "you win" button. It's only fun if you like figuring out how to increase those odds, and it balances out the salt of losing despite playing it right.

So back to Seprix. I never said you didn't like King's Court. In fact, I like King's Court. I don't think it deserves hate, it's a fun card and I like playing with it on the board. I'm also not saying your opinion makes no sense because I can see parts of where you're coming from. The main thing I'm curious about is what makes Peasant special, because as far as I could tell, replacing "Peasant" with "King's Court" required changing very little about the rest of your argument. And as you noted, "Peasant" --> "Page" does a similar thing. It's not just that other cards share situations, it's that these card seem to share all the same critiques.

I wanted to know what piece was missing, that would make the argument only make sense with Peasant, and not with other cards. That, to me, is the interesting part of this. Logical self-consistency is a pipe dream, but in my experience there's usually something that resolves the contradiction (even if it takes a while to figuring out exactly how to say it.)
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2018, 08:31:36 pm »
+1

I still can't believe Pathfinding/Cursed Village isn't an obvious joke.

It is. The problem is that this also looks like an obvious joke.
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2018, 09:01:17 pm »
0

There are way more meaningful choices in a Peasant game than you're making it out to be. Sure, adding reliable draw to a board follows a similar script, but the order of the token selections, decision to Teacher or Disciple, pacing, payload, etc are still meaningful choices. Maybe don't blame your losses on shuffles and figure out what other choices you could have made, such as a carefully timed +Buy or +Coin token.
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2018, 09:22:44 pm »
+1

So, a card that almost no one ever talks about, but I'm sure is super swingy is Inheritance. Like a lot of the times getting Inheritance first is an auto win
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2018, 10:41:03 pm »
0

So, a card that almost no one ever talks about, but I'm sure is super swingy is Inheritance. Like a lot of the times getting Inheritance first is an auto win

Yes, it can be very swingy. I think people complain about it less than, say, Tournament because sometimes it's actually terrible.
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markus

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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2018, 08:25:57 am »
0

Some cards tend to lead to snowballing and one player eventually crushing the other one. As a result, Peasant, Tournament, Ambassador and King's Court all have high resign rates. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they favour lower skill. Better players could make it more likely that they are the ones who come out ahead. (Tournament and Ambassador seem to help the weaker player a bit; Swindler and Chariot Race are the cards that seem to help weaker players the most, where weaker still means good player > level 50)

If your Chapel misses on a normal board and you are 1-2 turns behind in the end, it might feel better, but the chance of you actually winning the game are reduced to a similar extent as when Peasant misses.
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werothegreat

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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2018, 08:40:24 am »
+6

All these words spent in this thread and still no one has reminded Seprix that Warrior trashing Warrior is far more swingy than anything the Peasant line does.
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2018, 01:47:50 am »
0

All these words spent in this thread and still no one has reminded Seprix that Warrior trashing Warrior is far more swingy than anything the Peasant line does.

Well I said this  "I hate that Warriors can trash Warriors, which is just begging for trouble."
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2018, 09:28:11 am »
+3

...

Not clever.


I don't know about that, it sounds like a super long copy-pasta in the making.

All this time, and no one has mentioned how swingy Urchin/Mercenary is. Urchin really rubs it in your face when you are less lucky than your opponent, as you keep getting attacked. And there are no guarantees concerning when you will finally get a Mercenary. And then of course the other player's Mercenary attacks your own Mercenary hand. Like Peasant, it's not monolithic because you need other cards to win, but it's trashing, and maybe it's the best trashing and you have to go for it with a dumb double or even triple Urchin opening.

The worst part is the "lol no skill noob super lucky get good" saltiness it induces online. This might be the biggest reason for me to ban it.

Urchin is maybe less "centralizing" than Peasant as it is probably skippable in more games than Peasant. The snowball effect on it is still unreal.
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2018, 10:14:51 am »
0

All this time, and no one has mentioned how swingy Urchin/Mercenary is. Urchin really rubs it in your face when you are less lucky than your opponent, as you keep getting attacked. And there are no guarantees concerning when you will finally get a Mercenary. And then of course the other player's Mercenary attacks your own Mercenary hand. Like Peasant, it's not monolithic because you need other cards to win, but it's trashing, and maybe it's the best trashing and you have to go for it with a dumb double or even triple Urchin opening.

The worst part is the "lol no skill noob super lucky get good" saltiness it induces online. This might be the biggest reason for me to ban it.

Urchin is maybe less "centralizing" than Peasant as it is probably skippable in more games than Peasant. The snowball effect on it is still unreal.

Well, that's probably because this is a thread about Peasant, instead of just any card you hate. Regardless, everything you said is true. Unlike Peasant, I do hate Urchin, and would ban it in a heartbeat if I could.
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2018, 05:29:38 pm »
+1

But hate on. And please ban-list, you can't come sooner. *stares at Sauna*

*stares in Rebuild*
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2018, 07:54:17 pm »
+1

the most unfair card in Dominion though is Trade Route.
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2018, 09:39:29 pm »
0

Must buy cards are ok IMO as long as they involve the rest of the kingdom to be powerful. It's why I like Chapel and KC but can't stand Rebuild.

Both Page and Peasant generally get their strength from how they affect other cards.
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2018, 10:22:38 pm »
0

Like Peasant, it's not monolithic because you need other cards to win, but it's trashing, and maybe it's the best trashing and you have to go for it with a dumb double or even triple Urchin opening.

One of my big pet peeves is attacks which often get bought  for reasons other than the attack, but whose attacks are pretty strong anyway. I should be thinking about the fact I'm attacking my opponent and how the attack would impact their strategy, not just giving them a bad time as a side effect.


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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2018, 10:54:29 pm »
+2

The beauty of having a ban list - or playing irl where everyone has it - is that there can be cool fun cards like Peasant and King's Court and people who hate them don't have to play with them.

It also means you can take a break from those cards, then realize you miss them, and enjoy them again.
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2018, 12:27:45 am »
+10

The beauty of having a ban list - or playing irl where everyone has it - is that there can be cool fun cards like Peasant and King's Court and people who hate them don't have to play with them.

It also means you can take a break from those cards, then realize you miss them, and enjoy them again.


I haven't missed Possession yet.
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2018, 07:17:14 am »
0

The beauty of having a ban list - or playing irl where everyone has it - is that there can be cool fun cards like Peasant and King's Court and people who hate them don't have to play with them.

It also means you can take a break from those cards, then realize you miss them, and enjoy them again.


I haven't missed Possession yet.

Yup, every time I try Possession again there is not a single other player who enjoys it.
In fact, the only ragequits I've ever seen in Dominion are Possession-related.
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2018, 07:42:10 pm »
0

the most unfair card in Dominion though is Trade Route.

I'm still struggling to get the joke...
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2018, 09:46:14 am »
0

Like Peasant, it's not monolithic because you need other cards to win, but it's trashing, and maybe it's the best trashing and you have to go for it with a dumb double or even triple Urchin opening.

One of my big pet peeves is attacks which often get bought  for reasons other than the attack, but whose attacks are pretty strong anyway. I should be thinking about the fact I'm attacking my opponent and how the attack would impact their strategy, not just giving them a bad time as a side effect.

Yes, this is a big reason my girlfriend and I stopped playing with attacks - she doesn't appreciate being hit by the same attack every turn, and Minion is great at that. Of course, I only bought the Minions because they stack really well; the attack was an afterthought for me. Of course, I considered simply removing the attack aspect from such cards, including Scrying Pool, but I haven't felt like doing that so I just removed attacks entirely.

In essence, it doesn't seem great to put a unique and useful mechanic on a card, and then also give it an attack that the player doesn't even necessarily want to use.
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2018, 10:06:29 am »
0

Like Peasant, it's not monolithic because you need other cards to win, but it's trashing, and maybe it's the best trashing and you have to go for it with a dumb double or even triple Urchin opening.

One of my big pet peeves is attacks which often get bought  for reasons other than the attack, but whose attacks are pretty strong anyway. I should be thinking about the fact I'm attacking my opponent and how the attack would impact their strategy, not just giving them a bad time as a side effect.

Yes, this is a big reason my girlfriend and I stopped playing with attacks - she doesn't appreciate being hit by the same attack every turn, and Minion is great at that. Of course, I only bought the Minions because they stack really well; the attack was an afterthought for me. Of course, I considered simply removing the attack aspect from such cards, including Scrying Pool, but I haven't felt like doing that so I just removed attacks entirely.

In essence, it doesn't seem great to put a unique and useful mechanic on a card, and then also give it an attack that the player doesn't even necessarily want to use.

Depends on the player. There is a lot of us out there that want more attacks and heavy player interaction in one way or another. Adding these things "unnecessarily" is for us, more or less. One of the most interesting and rewarding aspects of Dominion is to learn how to counter and oneself utilize attacks to the max. Torturer and heck even Ghost Ship is among my favorite cards for this reason. 

I can agree that the spyfunction on SP is annoying, but that is a problem with the spy-mechanic, not attacks.
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ackmondual

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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2018, 08:38:08 pm »
0

The beauty of having a ban list - or playing irl where everyone has it - is that there can be cool fun cards like Peasant and King's Court and people who hate them don't have to play with them.

It also means you can take a break from those cards, then realize you miss them, and enjoy them again.


I haven't missed Possession yet.
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Re: Why Peasant Will Be On My Ban List
« Reply #51 on: November 17, 2018, 02:58:53 am »
0

They can't all be the most reasonably-swingness cards ever, or the most reasonably-priced cards ever.
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