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Author Topic: Inheritance and Border Guard  (Read 495 times)

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singletee

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Inheritance and Border Guard
« on: November 08, 2018, 04:28:25 am »
+9



If I Inherit a Border Guard, the consensus seems to be that I do not get to use the abilities of the associated artifacts with it. The Horn lets me topdeck a Border Guard during cleanup, and an Estate isn't a Border Guard, so I can't topdeck an Estate. Seems clear enough. Likewise, the Lantern causes my Border Guards to reveal 3 cards, and Estates aren't Border Guards, so that doesn't work either, right? Hold on, not so fast! Lantern works on all my Border Guards, including the one with the Estate token on it... which is the card my Estates gain their abilities from. The thing the Estate is copying reveals 3 cards, so the Estate also reveals 3 cards. To me, Lantern is statically modifying the abilities of all my Border Guards at all times, and my Estates should inherit (pun intended) those modified abilities. For it to work the other way, I would expect Lantern to be worded something like "When you reveal or discard cards with a Border Guard, reveal or discard one more": an ability that replaces one event with another as it happens.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 04:30:02 am by singletee »
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Donald X.

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Re: Inheritance and Border Guard
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2018, 04:59:55 am »
+6

I appreciate that you posted the images! Otherwise I have to look them up.

That's an interesting line of reasoning. The question is, does Lantern modify Border Guards (thus the Estate with the token is modified), or does it modify the playing of Border Guards (thus Estates aren't played differently). The rulebook doesn't lock in an answer.

I don't think your alternate wording is the way to think of this; sure if I saw that there was some confusion to clear up and it was so worth clearing up as to mangle card text, I would have mangled the card text to make it clear, caring only about clarity and not about what the ruling would then be. It wasn't trivial to word though and your wording is not dazzling me.

I feel like the text looks more like shapeshifting than when-play-modification. Man that makes Lantern a 4th shapeshifting thing that doesn't change all cards with the same name at the same time, along with Band of Misfits, Overlord, and Inheritance. That weird thing majiponi found may be doable with Lantern too (or, might be doable if certain utterly innocent cards existed). It should say, "During your turns, Border Guards reveal 3..." Damn.

I am tentatively going with you and reversing that ruling - to, Inherited Border Guards benefit from Lantern. Let's not ask Stef to change it just yet. Maybe some people want to weigh in on their intuitive reading of Lantern.
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trivialknot

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Re: Inheritance and Border Guard
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2018, 08:51:26 am »
0

Singletee's argument makes sense to me.  But could you make the same argument about bonus tokens?

For example, say I inherit and train Border Guard (Training says "When you play a card from that pile, you first get +$1").  Your estates are not from the Border Guard pile, so intuitively they shouldn't get the +$1 bonus.  On the other hand, the Border Guard that has your inheritance token on it, that Border Guard has +$1, so shouldn't your Estates inherit that ability?

To further complicate matters, suppose that you also have Capitalism.  The Border Guard with the inheritance token now has the Treasure type (per the ruling that Capitalism affects cards with the +$1 token).  Do your Estates now inherit the treasure type, even though they don't have the +$1? (ETA: this is wrong, there is no such ruling)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 12:41:16 pm by trivialknot »
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faust

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Re: Inheritance and Border Guard
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2018, 09:07:29 am »
+1

For example, say I inherit and train Border Guard (Training says "When you play a card from that pile, you first get +$1").  Your estates are not from the Border Guard pile, so intuitively they shouldn't get the +$1 bonus.  On the other hand, the Border Guard that has your inheritance token on it, that Border Guard has +$1, so shouldn't your Estates inherit that ability?
I think the token isn't really an ability of that the cards on that pile gain; it's more like a Project that gives you a global effect and the token just sits on the pile to remind you that playing cards from there triggers the ability. Being from some pile is not a card ability, otherwise you could ambassador inherited Estates to the pile of the Action you inherited.
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Ingix

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Re: Inheritance and Border Guard
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2018, 09:44:39 am »
0

The rulings about Enchantress and Adventure tokens (the token effect happens even under Enchantress) also point to the result that the token effect does not become part of the card.
Enchantress is also a good comparison in wording, as it also affects what happens to another card when it is played. From the difference in style it would support SingleTee's argument that Lantern works differently.

Fundamentally, we are at the point of copy cards in Magic for the first few editions. There are a few, most interactions about them are ruled on, but as more and more new effects happened, it became unclear how it all worked under the hood.

We have one card that modifies what happens when another card is played (Enchantress). We have one Event that modifies the text (or only the abilities?) of other cards (Inheritance). A decision has to be made how Lantern works, possibly in either of the above ways. If the old ruling is upheld, which suggests the "modifies what happens when another card is played" approach , the question about the interaction of Lantern and Enchantress needs to be answered. As discussed during online testing, the only reasonable answer to that seems to be that Enchantress' effect prevails, but again there should be a way to arrive at this answer by applying some rules.
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J Reggie

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Re: Inheritance and Border Guard
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2018, 09:44:49 am »
0

Where was the ruling that Capitalism affects cards with the +$1 token? I thought it just affected Teacher, which refers to the +$1 token by name.

Ingix

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Re: Inheritance and Border Guard
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2018, 09:51:11 am »
0

AFAIK there was no such ruling. What trivialknot refers to is their idea that the token effects should become part of the card, which would then imply that for the +$1-token Capitalism would apply to the cards with that token and then to Estates that inherit such cards. Of course I may have misunderstood their argument.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Inheritance and Border Guard
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2018, 10:54:51 am »
+1

Weighing in with an opinion that Lantern should work. Unlike the rules for Adventures tokens, Lantern doesn't say that it's a thing that happens when you play a Border Guard. It would be different if it said "when you play Border Guard"... Then there's no question, because playing an Estate isn't playing a Border Guard. Lantern sounds to me like it modifies the abilities of your Border Guards, and we know that the set-aside Border Guard is yours. So the set-aside Border Guard reveals 3; that's the abilities that it has. Seems like Inherited Estate should also reveal 3.

Horn, on the other hand, refers to discarding a Border Guard, and discarding an Estate isn't discarding a Border Guard, so no question there.
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Chris is me

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Re: Inheritance and Border Guard
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2018, 12:32:05 pm »
+1

My intuition is that Horn does not affect Estates, but Lantern does. Lantern changes the abilities of border guard, which Estate inherits. Inherited Estates check what Border Guard does on-play, in my mind.

This is different from tokens, which are an additional effect triggered by playing an action, tokens do not become part of the card's abilities at all.
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trivialknot

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Re: Inheritance and Border Guard
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2018, 12:37:23 pm »
+1

Where was the ruling that Capitalism affects cards with the +$1 token? I thought it just affected Teacher, which refers to the +$1 token by name.
Oh.  When it was said that Capitalism affects Teacher, I misunderstood that to mean that it affects Teacher tokens, but I guess we were talking about Teacher itself.  Good thing, because I didn't think it made any sense for it to affect the Teacher tokens.
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Donald X.

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Re: Inheritance and Border Guard
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2018, 04:14:17 pm »
0

Singletee's argument makes sense to me.  But could you make the same argument about bonus tokens?
No, the Adventures tokens are clearly things that trigger when you play a card, not shapeshifting.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Inheritance and Border Guard
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2018, 04:58:35 pm »
0

Singletee's argument makes sense to me.  But could you make the same argument about bonus tokens?
No, the Adventures tokens are clearly things that trigger when you play a card, not shapeshifting.

When you made Adventures tokens, was the wording at all influenced by this distinction; or was it just the simplest wording, and happened to make it so that Estates and BoMs didn't work?
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Donald X.

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Re: Inheritance and Border Guard
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2018, 05:14:03 pm »
0

Singletee's argument makes sense to me.  But could you make the same argument about bonus tokens?
No, the Adventures tokens are clearly things that trigger when you play a card, not shapeshifting.

When you made Adventures tokens, was the wording at all influenced by this distinction; or was it just the simplest wording, and happened to make it so that Estates and BoMs didn't work?
I did not yet know that shapeshifting cards would ruin me, and as usual didn't care how that ruling went as long as it was clear. So the focus was entirely, how do I make this clear, in particular the timing of getting the bonus relative to the effects of the card.
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Jeebus

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Re: Inheritance and Border Guard
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2018, 03:52:26 pm »
0

This ruling actually has another consequence: If you play a Border Guard that isn't yours, it's not affected by your Lantern.

Play Throne Room on Band of Misfits, choose Embargo. Play Band of Misfits from the trash, choose Border Guard. Lantern doesn't affect it, since it's not yours anymore.

Jeebus

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Re: Inheritance and Border Guard
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2018, 04:19:49 pm »
0

I'm not sure if the conclusion has to be that Border Guard's ability is modified.

Lantern must have an implicit "instead of", otherwise it would mean that you reveal 5 cards and discard 3 cards when you play Border Guard. So Lantern must have the implicit text "Instead of revealing 2 cards and discarding 1, your Border Guards reveal 3 cards and discard 2".

This could be seen as a shape-shifting thing. But it could just as easily be seen as an Enchantress-like replacement: "Instead of doing A, do B" kind of implies that whenever you would do A, you do B instead.

GendoIkari

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Re: Inheritance and Border Guard
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2018, 05:34:42 pm »
0

I'm not sure if the conclusion has to be that Border Guard's ability is modified.

Lantern must have an implicit "instead of", otherwise it would mean that you reveal 5 cards and discard 3 cards when you play Border Guard. So Lantern must have the implicit text "Instead of revealing 2 cards and discarding 1, your Border Guards reveal 3 cards and discard 2".

This could be seen as a shape-shifting thing. But it could just as easily be seen as an Enchantress-like replacement: "Instead of doing A, do B" kind of implies that whenever you would do A, you do B instead.

The difference here is that even if your "instead of" wording, it doesn't involve "when you play". It doesn't matter if it has an "instead" or not. It matters if it has a "when you play" or not.
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DG

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Re: Inheritance and Border Guard
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2018, 06:04:51 pm »
0

I think it would be easier to think of each effect separately. Inheritance does not change the horn so the horn does what it says it does. This would avoid complicated issues down the line such as the (reterospective) sequence in which you would apply inheritance, horn/lantern, and maybe another future effect.
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Jeebus

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Re: Inheritance and Border Guard
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2018, 06:05:43 pm »
0

I'm not sure if the conclusion has to be that Border Guard's ability is modified.

Lantern must have an implicit "instead of", otherwise it would mean that you reveal 5 cards and discard 3 cards when you play Border Guard. So Lantern must have the implicit text "Instead of revealing 2 cards and discarding 1, your Border Guards reveal 3 cards and discard 2".

This could be seen as a shape-shifting thing. But it could just as easily be seen as an Enchantress-like replacement: "Instead of doing A, do B" kind of implies that whenever you would do A, you do B instead.

The difference here is that even if your "instead of" wording, it doesn't involve "when you play". It doesn't matter if it has an "instead" or not. It matters if it has a "when you play" or not.

Yes, with "when you play" (meaning "when you would play") there would be no question. I'm just saying, as it is, I think it's possible to interpret it both ways, since the text doesn't explicitly say how it works.

But, Envious has the same wording as Lantern, and in another thread I just found, I was pretty sure that Envious shapeshifts other cards. :P I don't think Donald has ever weighed in on Envious though (probably because it doesn't matter in practice). But going by wording alone, Lantern, Envious and Coppersmith should all be shapershifters or not.

Oyvind

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Re: Inheritance and Border Guard
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2018, 05:32:12 am »
+2

My intuitive reading is as follows:

Inheritance says "Once per game: Set aside a non-Victory Action card from the Supply costing up to $4. Move your Estate token to it. (Your Estates gain the abilities and types of that card.)". Your Estates don't transform into Border Guards. They only copy the abilities and types of Border Guard:

Name: Estate
Ability: +1 Action
Reveal the top 2 cards of your deck. Put one into your hand and discard the other. If both were Actions, take the Lantern or Horn.
1 VP
Cost: 2
Types: Action - Victory

The Horn and Lantern both refer to Border Guard. Your Estates still aren't Border Guards. Even if you have the Horn, your Estates will still be discarded as normal at the end of your turn. Even if you have the Lantern, your Estates will still only reveal the top 2 cards of your deck. Your Estates cannot inherit the abilities of Horn or Lantern, because these are not cards costing up to 4. Your Estates are still only Estates, even though they gain some additional abilities and type(s).

This is my take, anyway. Inheritance isn't worded like BoM, which specifically says "Play this as if it were a cheaper Action card in the Supply. This is that card until it leaves play." No mention of gaining abilities and types here. I don't think they should work identically.
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MatthewCA

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Re: Inheritance and Border Guard
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2018, 09:33:12 am »
+1

My intuitive reading is as follows:

Inheritance says "Once per game: Set aside a non-Victory Action card from the Supply costing up to $4. Move your Estate token to it. (Your Estates gain the abilities and types of that card.)". Your Estates don't transform into Border Guards. They only copy the abilities and types of Border Guard:

Name: Estate
Ability: +1 Action
Reveal the top 2 cards of your deck. Put one into your hand and discard the other. If both were Actions, take the Lantern or Horn.
1 VP
Cost: 2
Types: Action - Victory

The Horn and Lantern both refer to Border Guard. Your Estates still aren't Border Guards. Even if you have the Horn, your Estates will still be discarded as normal at the end of your turn. Even if you have the Lantern, your Estates will still only reveal the top 2 cards of your deck. Your Estates cannot inherit the abilities of Horn or Lantern, because these are not cards costing up to 4. Your Estates are still only Estates, even though they gain some additional abilities and type(s).

This is my take, anyway. Inheritance isn't worded like BoM, which specifically says "Play this as if it were a cheaper Action card in the Supply. This is that card until it leaves play." No mention of gaining abilities and types here. I don't think they should work identically.

This was my initial thought too. But I do see the line of reasoning behind Lantern working, but not Horn.

Reading the comments, I have been convinced that Lantern should work with Inherited Border Guard.
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