Dominion > Rules Questions

A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications

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chipperMDW:
1) The rulebook says:

--- Quote ---A token [on the Coffers side of your mat] can be removed in your Buy phase, before buying anything, for +$.
--- End quote ---

Does that have the same "any time" implication that Villagers have? Like, if I play a Capitalist Vassal during the Buy phase and he turns over a Storyteller, can I spend Coffers at that moment in order to get Storyteller to draw more cards?


2) The rulebooks say that after you "buy something," you can no longer play treasures or spend Coffers. Now that you can play Black Market in various ways during the buy phase, you can technically buy something at a time that would normally be "in the middle of" playing treasures. Does buying something from the Black Market this way serve to prevent you from playing any more treasures? Or is it only "normal" buys that do that?

markus:
I think the answers are:

1) You should be able to spend coffers before executing Storyteller (unless you've bought something, like a Storyteller played with Innovation).

2)a) You can't spend more Coffers after buying something from Black Market in the buy phase.
b) But you can play more Treasures as the rulebook talks about playing Treasures before you use the "normal" buys.

Oyvind:

--- Quote from: chipperMDW on November 06, 2018, 09:43:13 am ---1) The rulebook says:

--- Quote ---A token [on the Coffers side of your mat] can be removed in your Buy phase, before buying anything, for +$.
--- End quote ---

Does that have the same "any time" implication that Villagers have? Like, if I play a Capitalist Vassal during the Buy phase and he turns over a Storyteller, can I spend Coffers at that moment in order to get Storyteller to draw more cards?


2) The rulebooks say that after you "buy something," you can no longer play treasures or spend Coffers. Now that you can play Black Market in various ways during the buy phase, you can technically buy something at a time that would normally be "in the middle of" playing treasures. Does buying something from the Black Market this way serve to prevent you from playing any more treasures? Or is it only "normal" buys that do that?

--- End quote ---

(1) I don’t think you can spend Coffers after you’ve played a Vassaled Storyteller to draw more cards, as the Storyteller only allows you to spend Treasures from hand. Coffers are not in your hand, and they aren’t technically Treasures either.

2) As I see it, conducting a Black Market played in the Buy phase as a Treasure isn’t stopping you from playing Coffers later in the buy phase, but you can’t use the money from those Coffers to pay for a card from the Black Market deck. As part of playing the Black Market, you have to follow the instructions on the card, and it, too, says that you’re only allowed to play Treasures from hand. Once you’ve bought a card from the Black Market deck or refrained from doing it, you can carry on with your buy phase, and as you said, you’re still in the process of playing Treasures at that time, so...

I may be wrong on both of these, but that’s the way I’ve interpreted it. Hopefully someone in the know can settle this.

Ingix:
The key point is that Coffers/Villagers can be transformed in their respective phases (with restrictions for Coffers based on buys). Of course this is not explicitely told on each and every Action or Treasure. So it stands to reason that indeed you can can, during the execution of a buy-phase Storyteller or Black Market, transform tokens from the Coffers into coins. That's because you are now in your buy phase!

The Renaissance rulebook spells this out:

> Cards say "+1 Coffers" to mean, add a token to the Coffers side of your mat. A token there can be removed in your Buy phase, before buying anything, for +$1.

A very literal interpretation of that is that if you played Black Market in your buy phase and bought something with it, you *cannot* transform tokens anymore in that buy phase! Of course, it can be argued that this refers to the 'normal' way of buying, but Dominion has shown time and again that definitions stand, even if they later turn out to have previously impossible consequences.

Donald X.:
We were just discussing this stuff in the online Renaissance playtesting discord.

These things are pretty clear:
- The way playing treasures and then buying cards works is, first there's a section of your buy phase when you can play treasures, then a section when you can buy cards. Magically buying a card during the treasure-playing portion via Black Market doesn't stop you from playing more treasures afterwards.
- Exploration cares if you bought something in that Buy phase, so it does care about Black Market buys.
- Coffers tokens can be used in the middle of whatever, during the time period when they can be used. This means that Fortune, Black Market, and Storyteller all want some kind of way in the online version to use Coffers (and then you don't have to worry about whether it was Vassal or Venture or whatever that made them appear). [And, Diadem wants a way to use Villagers.]

This thing is not so clear but I have ruled on it:
- Buying a card via Black Market in the Buy phase does stop you from further use of Coffers tokens in that phase. This is a literal interpretation of the rules. It's not satisfying because the idea really was that you use Coffers during the play-treasures portion of the Buy phase (which sadly isn't a separate phase, which would simplify some things). But, literal interpretation.

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