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chipperMDW

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A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« on: November 06, 2018, 09:43:13 am »
+7

1) The rulebook says:
Quote
A token [on the Coffers side of your mat] can be removed in your Buy phase, before buying anything, for +$.

Does that have the same "any time" implication that Villagers have? Like, if I play a Capitalist Vassal during the Buy phase and he turns over a Storyteller, can I spend Coffers at that moment in order to get Storyteller to draw more cards?


2) The rulebooks say that after you "buy something," you can no longer play treasures or spend Coffers. Now that you can play Black Market in various ways during the buy phase, you can technically buy something at a time that would normally be "in the middle of" playing treasures. Does buying something from the Black Market this way serve to prevent you from playing any more treasures? Or is it only "normal" buys that do that?
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markus

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Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2018, 10:21:43 am »
+1

I think the answers are:

1) You should be able to spend coffers before executing Storyteller (unless you've bought something, like a Storyteller played with Innovation).

2)a) You can't spend more Coffers after buying something from Black Market in the buy phase.
b) But you can play more Treasures as the rulebook talks about playing Treasures before you use the "normal" buys.
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Oyvind

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Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2018, 03:53:45 pm »
0

1) The rulebook says:
Quote
A token [on the Coffers side of your mat] can be removed in your Buy phase, before buying anything, for +$.

Does that have the same "any time" implication that Villagers have? Like, if I play a Capitalist Vassal during the Buy phase and he turns over a Storyteller, can I spend Coffers at that moment in order to get Storyteller to draw more cards?


2) The rulebooks say that after you "buy something," you can no longer play treasures or spend Coffers. Now that you can play Black Market in various ways during the buy phase, you can technically buy something at a time that would normally be "in the middle of" playing treasures. Does buying something from the Black Market this way serve to prevent you from playing any more treasures? Or is it only "normal" buys that do that?

(1) I donít think you can spend Coffers after youíve played a Vassaled Storyteller to draw more cards, as the Storyteller only allows you to spend Treasures from hand. Coffers are not in your hand, and they arenít technically Treasures either.

2) As I see it, conducting a Black Market played in the Buy phase as a Treasure isnít stopping you from playing Coffers later in the buy phase, but you canít use the money from those Coffers to pay for a card from the Black Market deck. As part of playing the Black Market, you have to follow the instructions on the card, and it, too, says that youíre only allowed to play Treasures from hand. Once youíve bought a card from the Black Market deck or refrained from doing it, you can carry on with your buy phase, and as you said, youíre still in the process of playing Treasures at that time, so...

I may be wrong on both of these, but thatís the way Iíve interpreted it. Hopefully someone in the know can settle this.
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Ingix

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Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2018, 04:46:17 pm »
+1

The key point is that Coffers/Villagers can be transformed in their respective phases (with restrictions for Coffers based on buys). Of course this is not explicitely told on each and every Action or Treasure. So it stands to reason that indeed you can can, during the execution of a buy-phase Storyteller or Black Market, transform tokens from the Coffers into coins. That's because you are now in your buy phase!

The Renaissance rulebook spells this out:

> Cards say "+1 Coffers" to mean, add a token to the Coffers side of your mat. A token there can be removed in your Buy phase, before buying anything, for +$1.

A very literal interpretation of that is that if you played Black Market in your buy phase and bought something with it, you *cannot* transform tokens anymore in that buy phase! Of course, it can be argued that this refers to the 'normal' way of buying, but Dominion has shown time and again that definitions stand, even if they later turn out to have previously impossible consequences.
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Donald X.

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Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2018, 05:28:01 pm »
+4

We were just discussing this stuff in the online Renaissance playtesting discord.

These things are pretty clear:
- The way playing treasures and then buying cards works is, first there's a section of your buy phase when you can play treasures, then a section when you can buy cards. Magically buying a card during the treasure-playing portion via Black Market doesn't stop you from playing more treasures afterwards.
- Exploration cares if you bought something in that Buy phase, so it does care about Black Market buys.
- Coffers tokens can be used in the middle of whatever, during the time period when they can be used. This means that Fortune, Black Market, and Storyteller all want some kind of way in the online version to use Coffers (and then you don't have to worry about whether it was Vassal or Venture or whatever that made them appear). [And, Diadem wants a way to use Villagers.]

This thing is not so clear but I have ruled on it:
- Buying a card via Black Market in the Buy phase does stop you from further use of Coffers tokens in that phase. This is a literal interpretation of the rules. It's not satisfying because the idea really was that you use Coffers during the play-treasures portion of the Buy phase (which sadly isn't a separate phase, which would simplify some things). But, literal interpretation.
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ConMan

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Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2018, 05:39:31 pm »
+1

Does it make more sense to say that you can spend those tokens whenever you could play the relevant card? So you can spend a Villager any time you could normally play an Action card, and you can spend a Coffer any time you could normally play a Treasure card. Then that means you can't spend them in the middle of playing something else (which makes sense to me).

To look at it another way - could I previously play a Venture, reveal a Fortune, and quickly spend all my Coffers to boost my coins before they get doubled? I'm pretty sure the answer is no, so I feel like it shouldn't be different even if Black Market or Storyteller has some special instructions in it.
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chipperMDW

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Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2018, 05:43:56 pm »
+2

It seems like the same literal interpretation should also disallow playing Treasures after buying from Black Market during the buy phase. At least, the 2E base set rulebook says: "You cannot go back and play more Treasures after buying a card; first play Treasures, then buy."

b) But you can play more Treasures as the rulebook talks about playing Treasures before you use the "normal" buys.
But I haven't been able to find where in the rulebook this is, so maybe that's what I'm missing.

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GendoIkari

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Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2018, 06:01:19 pm »
0

What was the initial motivation behind "play all treasures and then buy a card" in base Dominion? Was it ever tried the other way? It seems like allowing a person to play 3 Coppers, then buy a Silver, then play a Gold, then buy a Village would have just been simpler as a whole.
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GendoIkari

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Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2018, 06:03:49 pm »
0

Does it make more sense to say that you can spend those tokens whenever you could play the relevant card? So you can spend a Villager any time you could normally play an Action card, and you can spend a Coffer any time you could normally play a Treasure card. Then that means you can't spend them in the middle of playing something else (which makes sense to me).

To look at it another way - could I previously play a Venture, reveal a Fortune, and quickly spend all my Coffers to boost my coins before they get doubled? I'm pretty sure the answer is no, so I feel like it shouldn't be different even if Black Market or Storyteller has some special instructions in it.

With Villagers it was made clear that you can play them at times you couldn't normally play an action card; such as playing a Torturer and then spending a Villager before your opponent responds to the attack. This was discussed back when Villagers were previewed.

With the Venture/Fortune question, it seems like it's the same way... you can spend coffers after revealing Fortune, but before playing it. This will be a pain for the online version.
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Donald X.

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Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2018, 06:35:35 pm »
+2

It seems like the same literal interpretation should also disallow playing Treasures after buying from Black Market during the buy phase. At least, the 2E base set rulebook says: "You cannot go back and play more Treasures after buying a card; first play Treasures, then buy."
It's work to quote stuff from the pdf, and not precise to quote it from my text files, but the 2E rulebook has a section explaining the Buy phase and you clearly have the time when you can play treasures and then the time when you can buy a card, with no potential for Capitalism'd Black Market to mess it up.
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Donald X.

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Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2018, 06:43:30 pm »
+2

What was the initial motivation behind "play all treasures and then buy a card" in base Dominion? Was it ever tried the other way? It seems like allowing a person to play 3 Coppers, then buy a Silver, then play a Gold, then buy a Village would have just been simpler as a whole.
Initially there was no buy phase. On your turn you could play one action and then could buy one card. You spent treasure from your hand; cards like Royal Seal said "when you spend this." You can see examples for Prosperity: https://dominionstrategy.com/2013/06/24/dominion-outtakes/

When I switched to "you play treasures," you played them all before buying. No-one said "wait you can do better" and it worked great.

As I have said, it would be better to have it be two phases, play-treasures and then buy. Some things want to confine themselves to one side of that, e.g. Coffers in a world with Merchant Ship and Spices.
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werothegreat

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Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2018, 08:27:43 am »
+1

I mean, the 2E rules also say "You cannot go back and play more Treasures after buying a card; first play Treasures, then buy."  It would seem to me to be more consistent that Black Market's buy counts as ceasing Treasure playing.  Though I can also see the argument that BM in the Action phase doesn't disallow playing Treasure in the Buy phase, and BM has always been weird with Coffers.

I think it would be most consistent to go with either a) BM's buy is a buy in the buy phase, and all that that implies (no Treasures/Coffers afterwards), or b) BM is its own weird sui generis thing and doesn't count as a "buy" in the buy phase.  However, going with b) begs the question, what about Goons and Merchant Guild?  Does BM's buy count as a buy for their purposes?  When does it count as a buy and when not?  I think a) is the best option here.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 08:30:55 am by werothegreat »
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Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2018, 11:55:10 am »
+4

I've been thinking about this some more.  Black Market's "you may buy one of them" to me reads like Throne Room's "you may play an Action" in that it definitely shouldn't count against your Buys, even when played during the Buy phase: it gives you an extra opportunity to buy.  HOWEVER, it is still a "Buy", even though it's not using up a Buy.

So when you play BM during the Action phase, you cannot use Coffers or pay off Debt (not your Buy phase), and BM explicitly says you can play Treasures.  Then you get to your real Buy phase, which starts by letting you play Treasures, spend Coffers, pay off Debt.  However, once you buy a card during your Buy phase, you can no longer play Treasures or spend Coffers.  I get that Donald X has a conception of two halves of the Buy phase, but that is not explicit in the actual rules.

If you play a Black Market in your Buy phase, and Buy a card, you should not be able to play any more Treasures afterward, period*.  This has the added benefit of being most intuitive to new players ("Oh, I bought a card, I can't play any more Treasures, makes sense") even if it may cause competitive players to bitch and moan that they can't play as optimally as they might like.

* The exception being if you play Black Market with Black Market with Black Market etc. in a 10-fold Dominion matryoshka, in which case once you resolve one level of Black Markets, the next level up should let you continue playing new Treasures until you buy or choose not to buy with that one.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 11:58:31 am by werothegreat »
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Ingix

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Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2018, 04:33:04 pm »
0

It's not that I think your interpretation is clearly wrong, it isn't. It just that you quoted one sentence, that is summing up 4 paragraphs of buy phase explanation, IMO out of context. The first two of those paragraphs start with

> First you can play any number of Treasure cards from your hand, in any order....
> Then, you can buy one card, costing as much as you have or less....

I think this is a strong indicator for a conceptual division of the buy phase (though not explicit, agreed). Also the sentence you quote says "You cannot go back and play more Treasures..." If you played a Black Market during the Buy phase, there would be no 'going back', as you never left the part where you play Treasures. Again, in the context of a base Dominion rulebook that just two paragraphs before feels necessary to say that "Buying cards does not use up Treasure cards; you still have the cards." it should be a possible interpretation that the sentece you quote refers to the normal buying in the buy phase.

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werothegreat

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Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2018, 05:21:25 pm »
0

It's not that I think your interpretation is clearly wrong, it isn't. It just that you quoted one sentence, that is summing up 4 paragraphs of buy phase explanation, IMO out of context. The first two of those paragraphs start with

> First you can play any number of Treasure cards from your hand, in any order....
> Then, you can buy one card, costing as much as you have or less....

I think this is a strong indicator for a conceptual division of the buy phase (though not explicit, agreed). Also the sentence you quote says "You cannot go back and play more Treasures..." If you played a Black Market during the Buy phase, there would be no 'going back', as you never left the part where you play Treasures. Again, in the context of a base Dominion rulebook that just two paragraphs before feels necessary to say that "Buying cards does not use up Treasure cards; you still have the cards." it should be a possible interpretation that the sentece you quote refers to the normal buying in the buy phase.

But again, there isn't really a "Treasure-playing part" explicitly in the rules, or even mentioned on any cards.  We treat the "start" of phases differently because cards refer to them, and their timing can be noted.  This is why a Summoned Transmogrify can be called immediately - it's still the start of your turn.  This all progresses very neatly from the basic rules and what's on the cards.

Transmogrify can be called at the start of your turn --> Summon plays a card at the start of your turn --> Summoned Transmogrify goes on your Tavern mat at the start of your turn --> That same Transmogrify can now be called

It's a neat, logical process that you can deduce.

The Buy phase rules come down to "you can play Treasures until you buy a card."  No part of these rules says Treasures are played at the start of your Buy phase.  In fact, the start of your Buy phase is before "normal" Treasure playing - look at Arena.  Dominion players have been playing "I can't play any more Treasures after I buy something" for a decade now.

Now if Black Market were doing literally anything else - playing Actions, gaining without buying, reducing costs, getting resources, trashing, discarding, whatever - of course you could play more Treasures afterward.  But Black Market specifically lets you buy a card, which is what matters about Treasure play timing.  The official FAQ for Black Market mentions that buying a card in your Action phase doesn't matter with regards to your Buy phase, but the rules are pretty clear about the Buy phase.  It doesn't matter whether the Buy is a Buy that uses up one of your Buys (a "normal" Buy) or the special one Black Market lets you do - it's still a Buy.

Let's imagine there's a new type of card - let's call them Preactions.  The rules on Preactions is you can play any number of Preactions at the start of your turn.  Once you play an Action, you can't "go back and" play more Preactions.  But what if there were a Preaction that could play an Action?  It would be pretty clear that if that Preaction played an Action, you couldn't play any more Preactions afterward.  It doesn't matter that that Preaction playing an Action doesn't count as using up your Action for that Action phase, you played an Action, no more Preactions.  That's the rules for Preactions.

I feel I'm just rambling at this point, but really I don't see allowing more Treasure plays after buying a card through Black Market during your Buy phase as being at all justifiable.
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GendoIkari

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Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2018, 05:40:34 pm »
+3

I am unsure if it makes more sense (based on a reading of the rules, as well as how people will just think it works) if buying from the Black Market in your Buy phase should stop you from playing treasures afterwards or not.

I AM pretty sure that it would be much better if the rule for playing treasures, whichever way it goes, is consistent with the rule for spending Coffers. It's very awkward and unintuitive that there might be a time in your buy phase where you can play treasures, but you can't spend Coffers, just because the rules for each, while intending to mean the same thing, happened to use slightly different wording.
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Ingix

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Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2018, 06:59:31 pm »
+1

The Buy phase rules come down to "you can play Treasures until you buy a card." 

If you start from that premise, of course you arrive at the conclusion that after a Black Market buy in your buy phase you cannot play Treasures. It is just this premise that is IMO incorrect, based on one sentence that summarizes what has been described earlier in the rules and is used out of context. The context being that the process of 'normal buys' is being described, how they happen etc.

We have the bad situation that wordings that were (probably) made before Capitalism existed are now interpretable in different ways. I don't think either one is good or bad or leads to broken situations. A consistent interpretation of 'buys' would be good, of course, with consistent consequences, as Gendolkari notices.
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Donald X.

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Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2018, 07:05:50 pm »
0

I get that Donald X has a conception of two halves of the Buy phase, but that is not explicit in the actual rules.
It looked clear to me, reading the rules yesterday.
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Donald X.

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Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2018, 07:07:57 pm »
0

I feel I'm just rambling at this point, but really I don't see allowing more Treasure plays after buying a card through Black Market during your Buy phase as being at all justifiable.
It continues to look solidly justifiable to me.
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Donald X.

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Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2018, 07:21:22 pm »
0

I am unsure if it makes more sense (based on a reading of the rules, as well as how people will just think it works) if buying from the Black Market in your Buy phase should stop you from playing treasures afterwards or not.

I AM pretty sure that it would be much better if the rule for playing treasures, whichever way it goes, is consistent with the rule for spending Coffers. It's very awkward and unintuitive that there might be a time in your buy phase where you can play treasures, but you can't spend Coffers, just because the rules for each, while intending to mean the same thing, happened to use slightly different wording.
For me, again, well you can refer to my earlier post here for specifics, there are three things that seemed clear from the rulebooks, there is one thing that isn't as clear, and that's whether or not you can use Coffers tokens in your Buy phase after buying via Capitalism-Black Market.

It would be nice if you could use the Coffers tokens then. It is maybe not so bad even if the text on the Coffers mat is wrong; irl you constantly use Coffers tokens even after buying cards ("oops I use a Coffers token so I can also get..."), and no-one is going to be thinking, when this comes up, oh can I now not use Coffers tokens because of technical things. The rulebook doesn't cover it either though, it has the same description of functionality, where the idea was "you can't do this in the part of the buy phase where you buy cards" but that's not what it says.

The best of all possible worlds would have Coffers tokens just usable at any time in the Buy phase, with a different wording on Merchant Guild (e.g. delay the getting of tokens) and then some change or replacement for Spices. I don't get to do that though. And lots of rulebooks just went out with the current rules for Coffers tokens.

I am interested in further opinions on "Coffers token conversion after Capitalism-Black Market buys." I am not so interested in further opinions on the other rulings, they are clear from the rulebooks wero.
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werothegreat

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Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2018, 07:53:17 pm »
0

Hmm. I mean, I can't even think of an instance where it would actually matter if you can play more Treasures after buying from Black Market, as the card lets you play more Treasures while it's being played anyway. The only potential problem I can think of is more than one Black Market, which can just be played by the first Black Market anyway.
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Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2018, 07:56:54 pm »
+5

I am interested in further opinions on "Coffers token conversion after Capitalism-Black Market buys."

My opinion is that you should have it work however you initially envisioned it to work, even if the rulebook (and mat, I guess; I haven't seen the mat) could be interpreted otherwise. I feel like only literal-minded programmer types would even consider the possibility that Black Market might stop you from playing Coffers, and even then they would probably say, "Nah, it can't possibly mean that." I figure more than 95% of players (even ones who carefully read the rulebook) would be absolutely dumbfounded to discover that Black Market stopped you from playing Coffers. Mark Rosewater used to say something like, "If you go against players' expectations, you're fighting a losing battle."
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Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2018, 03:42:03 am »
0

I'd also like to add that I don't see the horrible consequences if Merchant's Guild/Spices suddenly allowed you to spend the Coffer tokens they produce right now. Sure there may be a situation with many buys and several Guilds that allow buying more cards, but you still have to generate the buys first.

The "first treasure playing, then buying cards" order makes sense to balance cards like Grand Market or buying Mint.
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Donald X.

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Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2018, 04:43:16 am »
+1

I'd also like to add that I don't see the horrible consequences if Merchant's Guild/Spices suddenly allowed you to spend the Coffer tokens they produce right now. Sure there may be a situation with many buys and several Guilds that allow buying more cards, but you still have to generate the buys first.
Well that's not what the mats and rulebooks say. They specifically say "before buying." It's really bad to have rulings that so severely flat-out contradict the physical components and rulebooks.

Again it was a poor decision to do things this way; I should have had Merchant Guild say e.g. "at the start of clean-up," and then when Spices came along I could figure out what I wanted there. I didn't need to settle for Merchant Guild giving you tokens you could immediately spend, though sure I could have tried that direction too.

And for that matter it would be great to allow playing treasures after buying cards. There are possible fixes for affected cards, e.g. "when you gain this, discard your hand and trash all Treasures you have in play" for Mint. IRL people constantly play treasures after buying cards. It's bad to have the rules technically go against that.

But you know, if you work on a game for 12 years without publishing it, of course you'll be able to publish a more polished version. I think the move was to get it out there.
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trivialknot

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Re: A Couple of Buy Phase Clarifications
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2018, 08:20:49 am »
+3

Hmm. I mean, I can't even think of an instance where it would actually matter if you can play more Treasures after buying from Black Market, as the card lets you play more Treasures while it's being played anyway. The only potential problem I can think of is more than one Black Market, which can just be played by the first Black Market anyway.
I got this one!

Action phase: play Black Market, buy nothing.
Buy phase: play Scepter, playing Black Market, playing all treasure, buying Smithy.
Play Smithy using Innovation, draw more treasure.  Now you want to play it.
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