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jonvs

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Capitalism Questions
« on: November 05, 2018, 05:00:12 pm »
+2

I LOVE the idea of the Capitalism Project, but I have so many questions about its execution that don’t seem to be answered in the rule book.

1. Does it add the Treasure type to an Action card (that would of course affect things like Courtier or Inheritance acting on Action cards) or replace its type, or is it merely played as a Treasure while retaining its type of Action?

2. Can this Project be used on conditional +$__ cards like Minion or Pawn? Or can it only be ones like Market that give you the +$__ no matter what?

3. I assume the other effects of the card don’t get played—because if they did, a Monument becomes a Plunder for $1 cheaper—but what happens to cards like Goons which have text below the line that affect what happens when it’s played?

This changes so much!
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Awaclus

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Re: Capitalism Questions
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2018, 05:06:10 pm »
+6

I LOVE the idea of the Capitalism Project, but I have so many questions about its execution that don’t seem to be answered in the rule book.

1. Does it add the Treasure type to an Action card (that would of course affect things like Courtier or Inheritance acting on Action cards) or replace its type, or is it merely played as a Treasure while retaining its type of Action?

2. Can this Project be used on conditional +$__ cards like Minion or Pawn? Or can it only be ones like Market that give you the +$__ no matter what?

3. I assume the other effects of the card don’t get played—because if they did, a Monument becomes a Plunder for $1 cheaper—but what happens to cards like Goons which have text below the line that affect what happens when it’s played?

1) It adds the type. You play it as a Treasure - Action.

2) It works on Minon and Pawn.

3) The other effects of the card do get played and Monument becomes a Plunder for $1 cheaper, and Goons also does its below-the-line effect.
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King Leon

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Re: Capitalism Questions
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2018, 05:15:45 pm »
+3

Teacher refers to the “+ $1 Token” in its text. Does this count as a “+ $” amount, so is he a Treasure, when I own capitalism?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Capitalism Questions
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2018, 05:19:14 pm »
+4

The trick to all of these questions is to simply interpret the wording literally, as written. It says that they are also Treasures; it doesn't change them in any other way. Monument does indeed still give you the +1, because there's nothing about the text of Capitalism that would imply it doesn't.
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King Leon

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Re: Capitalism Questions
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2018, 05:43:56 pm »
+1

The trick to all of these questions is to simply interpret the wording literally, as written. It says that they are also Treasures; it doesn't change them in any other way. Monument does indeed still give you the +1, because there's nothing about the text of Capitalism that would imply it doesn't.

That's clear, but how is a “+ $ amount” defined? Is the “+ $ 1” in “+ $ 1 token” also a “+ $ amount”? This question specifically regards Teacher.

An interesting finding would be, if we look at the term “+ 1 Card”. The first version of Cellar had this, the new version has not. I wonder if there would be similar issues, for example if Pirate Ship would be reworded and lost its “+ $1” in the 3rd edition.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Capitalism Questions
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2018, 05:51:44 pm »
+1

The trick to all of these questions is to simply interpret the wording literally, as written. It says that they are also Treasures; it doesn't change them in any other way. Monument does indeed still give you the +1, because there's nothing about the text of Capitalism that would imply it doesn't.

That's clear, but how is a “+ $ amount” defined? Is the “+ $ 1” in “+ $ 1 token” also a “+ $ amount”? This question specifically regards Teacher.

An interesting finding would be, if we look at the term “+ 1 Card”. The first version of Cellar had this, the new version has not. I wonder if there would be similar issues, for example if Pirate Ship would be reworded and lost its “+ $1” in the 3rd edition.

That's a fair question. In fact Salvager did change from being + to +; but fortunately both of those wordings qualify for Capitalism.

I feel pretty sure that "+ token" doesn't count as having a + amount; but indeed both Teacher and Market literally contain the text "+".
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Ingix

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Re: Capitalism Questions
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2018, 06:09:07 pm »
+9

Teacher is affected by Capitalism. The same question came up for Dominion Online and Donald answered affirmative.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Capitalism Questions
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2018, 08:56:04 pm »
+2

Teacher is affected by Capitalism. The same question came up for Dominion Online and Donald answered affirmative.

I'm surprised by this. Is the rule that Capitalism intends to simply look for any instance of "+" in the text (with any possible number in the coin of course)?
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Gherald

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Re: Capitalism Questions
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2018, 10:46:39 pm »
+2

Is the rule that Capitalism intends to simply look for any instance of "+" in the text?
This is not so much a rule as exactly what the Capitalism card-shaped object says in its text.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Capitalism Questions
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2018, 11:15:50 pm »
+4

Is the rule that Capitalism intends to simply look for any instance of "+" in the text?
This is not so much a rule as exactly what the Capitalism card-shaped object says in its text.

Well not quite, it says it looks for "+ amounts". It's reasonable to interpret the "+ token" as simply a name of a token rather than being an "amount".
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LastFootnote

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Re: Capitalism Questions
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2018, 12:20:16 am »
+2

Is the rule that Capitalism intends to simply look for any instance of "+" in the text?
This is not so much a rule as exactly what the Capitalism card-shaped object says in its text.

Well not quite, it says it looks for "+ amounts". It's reasonable to interpret the "+ token" as simply a name of a token rather than being an "amount".

There was some debate. I agree that the ruling is not obvious.
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faust

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Re: Capitalism Questions
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2018, 12:55:58 am »
+10

Teacher is affected by Capitalism. The same question came up for Dominion Online and Donald answered affirmative.
Well, crap. It doesn't even stop at the education system!
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markusin

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Re: Capitalism Questions
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2018, 01:44:56 am »
+3

Is the rule that Capitalism intends to simply look for any instance of "+" in the text?
This is not so much a rule as exactly what the Capitalism card-shaped object says in its text.

Well not quite, it says it looks for "+ amounts". It's reasonable to interpret the "+ token" as simply a name of a token rather than being an "amount".

There was some debate. I agree that the ruling is not obvious.

Well, looking for any literal instances of "+" does the best job of maintaining my sanity.
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jonvs

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Re: Capitalism Questions
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2018, 01:58:11 am »
+1

Thanks, everyone!  :)

I just realised that because you can play Treasures in any order (which affects certain cards such as Bank), you could play all your Treasures before you play a Poor House, and suddenly a card that costs $1 is better than a Gold. A Copper and two Poor Houses, played in that order, could buy you a Province, so if you opened $5/$2 and your opponent didn’t, it could be a very short game.

(Suddenly I have the Smarties theme song in my head: “When you play your Treasures do you play the Poor House last?”) ;D

It’s one of those massive game-changers where I’m not sure if it’s going to be really fun or just broken and OP, haha.
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ipofanes

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Re: Capitalism Questions
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2018, 03:47:57 am »
0

Teacher is affected by Capitalism. The same question came up for Dominion Online and Donald answered affirmative.
Well, crap. It doesn't even stop at the education system!
Surprised? (only click if you have tolerance for out of key sung political diatribe in German).
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scolapasta

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Re: Capitalism Questions
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2018, 11:55:39 am »
+4

Is the rule that Capitalism intends to simply look for any instance of "+" in the text?
This is not so much a rule as exactly what the Capitalism card-shaped object says in its text.

Well not quite, it says it looks for "+ amounts". It's reasonable to interpret the "+ token" as simply a name of a token rather than being an "amount".

There was some debate. I agree that the ruling is not obvious.

I agree with GendoIkari here (that said, I am relatively new to the forums).

"+ amounts" semantically means: (optionally) produces money you can use this turn; Teacher doesn't do that. It specifically refers to a token, that happens to be called the + token.


« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 11:57:18 am by scolapasta »
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Bearcat11

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Re: Capitalism Questions
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2018, 11:04:50 am »
0

Wouldn’t teacher realistically be giving you +1 coffers now that the lingo has changed?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Capitalism Questions
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2018, 12:10:23 pm »
+1

Wouldn’t teacher realistically be giving you +1 coffers now that the lingo has changed?

+1 coffers replaced “take a coin token”. It does not replace “put your +$1 token on a pile”. Teacher does nothing with coffers (coin tokens).
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Asper

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Re: Capitalism Questions
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2018, 12:22:16 pm »
+1

Well, you better hope that no foreign translation of Dominion made Coppersmith have Coppers produce "+$1" or called the "+$1" token just the "$1" token...

Dwhit

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Re: Capitalism Questions
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2018, 11:37:03 pm »
0

Does capitalism always make city a treasure? Or only once 2 piles are empty?
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dz

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Re: Capitalism Questions
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2018, 11:50:09 pm »
+1

Does capitalism always make city a treasure? Or only once 2 piles are empty?

It's always a treasure.
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jonvs

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Re: Capitalism Questions
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2018, 04:14:31 am »
0

Does capitalism always make city a treasure? Or only once 2 piles are empty?
Yes, the card becomes a Treasure regardless of the circumstances. For example, you could play a Pawn in your buy phase for +1 Card and +1 Buy and not use the +$1. I’ve learned from playing Dominion Online that all Capitalism essentially does is let you play certain Action cards during your Buy phase.
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crj

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Re: Capitalism Questions
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2018, 08:51:54 am »
+3

all Capitalism essentially does is let you play certain Action cards during your Buy phase.
That's not true, and potentially somewhat misleading. Capitalism makes those Action cards be Treasures for all purposes. You could buff them with Mine, duplicate them with Mint, discard them to Stables, gain them with Hero... whatever!
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kieranmillar

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Re: Capitalism Questions
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2018, 01:54:52 pm »
+1

That's not true, and potentially somewhat misleading. Capitalism makes those Action cards be Treasures for all purposes. You could buff them with Mine, duplicate them with Mint, discard them to Stables, gain them with Hero... whatever!
It even lets you play them twice with Crown!
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jonvs

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Re: Capitalism Questions
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2018, 02:36:24 pm »
0

That's not true, and potentially somewhat misleading. Capitalism makes those Action cards be Treasures for all purposes. You could buff them with Mine, duplicate them with Mint, discard them to Stables, gain them with Hero... whatever!
That's a good point. I shouldn't have been so hasty with my oversimplification there. Capitalism can actually get really complicated when, for example, you play a Black Market as a Treasure with Storyteller, play a bunch of other treasures for your Black Market selection, then try to figure out how many cards Storyteller should officially let you draw. ;D

It even lets you play them twice with Crown!
Nice. :)
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