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Author Topic: Fleet extra turns  (Read 4865 times)

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Jeebus

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Re: Fleet extra turns
« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2019, 03:58:37 pm »
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Do i interpret correctly that the player triggering end condition get extra turns triggered in that same turn, then the other players with Fleet get their "normal" turns plus possible extra turns, but the ending player gets only their "normal" turn without extra turns triggered during that?

Yes, if the "ending player" is indeed the last player to play their Fleet turn. The last player to play their Fleet turn, whoever that may be, does not get any extra turns after that.

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Re: Fleet extra turns
« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2019, 04:33:30 am »
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I assume Possession works only if the left player has bought Fleet, correct? It does not skip similar Masquerade players which did not buy Fleet?

If Alice plays Possession and ends the game normally, she will Possess Bob - as long as somebody has bought Fleet. First Bob gets a turn (Possessed by Alice), then all Fleet-players get a turn, starting with Bob and ending with Alice.

If Alice ends the game normally, and then Bob plays Possession on his Fleet turn, Bob Possesses the next player - as long as there are more Fleet turns. If Bob is the last Fleet player, he won't Possess anybody, because the game (Fleet round) ends immediately after his Fleet turn. If Alice plays Possession on her Fleet turn, she will not Possess anybody, because she is the last player.

Wow. That baffles me. I have had thought, that a player without Fleet would do nothing (except any "each player" or "each other player" or "the player to your left" effects). But when they still do an extra turn contrary to Fleet wording "turns just for players with this" then what with Outpost or Mission triggered in that possessed turn?
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Donald X.

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Re: Fleet extra turns
« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2019, 05:14:30 am »
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Wow. That baffles me. I have had thought, that a player without Fleet would do nothing (except any "each player" or "each other player" or "the player to your left" effects). But when they still do an extra turn contrary to Fleet wording "turns just for players with this" then what with Outpost or Mission triggered in that possessed turn?
I don't quite understand what you're saying, but will try to re-explain it.

Normally, if you play Outpost, you get an extra turn. If the game ends, you don't get that extra turn. Outpost doesn't stop the game from ending; it only gives you an extra turn if the game is still going.

Fleet actually stops the game from ending. So Outpost turns get to happen. Same with Possession and Mission.
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Fleet extra turns
« Reply #53 on: April 30, 2019, 09:39:15 am »
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Wow. That baffles me. I have had thought, that a player without Fleet would do nothing (except any "each player" or "each other player" or "the player to your left" effects). But when they still do an extra turn contrary to Fleet wording "turns just for players with this" then what with Outpost or Mission triggered in that possessed turn?

Fleet doesn't prevent anything from happening. The "just for players with this" clause only specifies which players get to take a "normal" turn in the extra round. It doesn't mean "players who didn't buy this can't take any turns", it just means "players who did buy this get an extra turn".

But if it helps to think about it this way, taking a possessed turn is a "player to your left" effect, and any consequences of the possessed turn therefore happen because of a "player to your left" effect.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Fleet extra turns
« Reply #54 on: April 30, 2019, 09:53:50 am »
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Wow. That baffles me. I have had thought, that a player without Fleet would do nothing (except any "each player" or "each other player" or "the player to your left" effects). But when they still do an extra turn contrary to Fleet wording "turns just for players with this" then what with Outpost or Mission triggered in that possessed turn?
I don't quite understand what you're saying, but will try to re-explain it.

Normally, if you play Outpost, you get an extra turn. If the game ends, you don't get that extra turn. Outpost doesn't stop the game from ending; it only gives you an extra turn if the game is still going.

Fleet actually stops the game from ending. So Outpost turns get to happen. Same with Possession and Mission.

If I understand it, his confusion was actually thinking that if you didn't buy a Fleet, the game is completely over for you, so you can't have any extra turns. But your right-hand opponent playing a Possession grants you and extra turn, even though the game has ended for you.
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Jeebus

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Re: Fleet extra turns
« Reply #55 on: April 30, 2019, 11:08:19 am »
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Yet one more way of saying it:

If any player has bought Fleet, there will be a Fleet round after the game would normally end. Only players with Fleet get a normal turn in this round. Otherwise it is exactly as if the game is extented for one normal round.*

*except that these turns don't count for tie-breaker.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 11:12:08 am by Jeebus »
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MatthewCA

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Re: Fleet extra turns
« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2019, 12:29:17 pm »
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Yet one more way of saying it:

If any player has bought Fleet, there will be a Fleet round after the game would normally end. Only players with Fleet get a normal turn in this round. Otherwise it is exactly as if the game is extented for one normal round.*

*except that these turns don't count for tie-breaker.

Basically it sounds like Fleet changes the timing between when the end of game is triggered and when its resolved. (With the obvious caveat that only players who bought Fleet get to participate in the final round.)
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Heikes Zweiter

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Re: Fleet extra turns
« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2019, 02:01:16 pm »
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If I understand it, his confusion was actually thinking that if you didn't buy a Fleet, the game is completely over for you, so you can't have any extra turns. But your right-hand opponent playing a Possession grants you and extra turn, even though the game has ended for you.

Exactly.

If any player has bought Fleet, there will be a Fleet round after the game would normally end. Only players with Fleet get a normal turn in this round. Otherwise it is exactly as if the game is extented for one normal round.*
That i will propose for translated FAQ.

In that sense in a possessed turn during Fleet round i can order to play Outpost and buy Mission and so give a player without Fleet additional turns also.
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Fleet extra turns
« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2019, 04:48:44 pm »
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In that sense in a possessed turn during Fleet round i can order to play Outpost and buy Mission and so give a player without Fleet additional turns also.

Yes, but I still don't understand why you would want to.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Fleet extra turns
« Reply #59 on: April 30, 2019, 06:10:27 pm »
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In that sense in a possessed turn during Fleet round i can order to play Outpost and buy Mission and so give a player without Fleet additional turns also.

Yes, but I still don't understand why you would want to.

3 player game. You have a Lighthouse in play. Right hand opponent is winning by 1 point. Left hand opponent can play an engine that plays multiple Witches. But when you possessed them; they only had Outpost and a bunch of junk in hand. You need them to take the Outpost turn to play out their engine to give other player multiple Curses.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Fleet extra turns
« Reply #60 on: April 30, 2019, 06:50:16 pm »
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In that sense in a possessed turn during Fleet round i can order to play Outpost and buy Mission and so give a player without Fleet additional turns also.

Yes, but I still don't understand why you would want to.
You don't necessarily need to want to. Think Herald, or Golem.
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Fleet extra turns
« Reply #61 on: April 30, 2019, 09:18:44 pm »
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In that sense in a possessed turn during Fleet round i can order to play Outpost and buy Mission and so give a player without Fleet additional turns also.

Yes, but I still don't understand why you would want to.
You don't necessarily need to want to. Think Herald, or Golem.

I was mostly confused by the phrasing "i can order to play Outpost and buy Mission", which sounds like the possessor is making the decision directly to have the possessee play Outpost. I guess GendoIkari's edge-case works.
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Heikes Zweiter

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Re: Fleet extra turns
« Reply #62 on: May 01, 2019, 05:17:15 am »
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I was mostly confused by the phrasing "i can order to play Outpost and buy Mission", which sounds like the possessor is making the decision directly to have the possessee play Outpost. I guess GendoIkari's edge-case works.
Yes, that was my intention. Was thinking of king making. But Golem + Herold have higher probability.
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Re: Fleet extra turns
« Reply #63 on: May 01, 2019, 05:46:05 am »
+1

To be clear: I see Donald's ruling and reasoning and accept it so far (after all he is the author and as such master), play it IRL so and explain it so to other players. But still i find it counter-intuitive because it does things not written.

Normally, if you play Outpost, you get an extra turn. If the game ends, you don't get that extra turn. Outpost doesn't stop the game from ending; it only gives you an extra turn if the game is still going.

Fleet actually stops the game from ending. So Outpost turns get to happen. Same with Possession and Mission.

I have no problem with them to happen.
I have a problem they happen for every player.
I have a problem they happen not for last player (if it is not the same triggering Fleet).
I have a problem that i can't find any hint why Fleet should get executed the way ruled here.

I try it this way:
  • Gain a card. Simple order. I want to grab Followers. But wait, there is written in the rulebook "If no pile is specified, gaining is restricted to supply." (probably not that wording, but that meaning) So a order is confined by a rule.
  • (instead of to your discard pile) No doubt, the gained card does not visit.
  • (+1 Action has no effect if it's not your turn.) That should be self-evident, but let us make it clear for the ignorants also.
So there are (at least) three ways to accomplish things otherwise not in scope.

Back to Fleet: After the game ends, there's an extra round of turns just for players with this. Nothing else. No bracketed text. No italicized text. Nothing additional about it in the rules of rulebook. From FAQ we get to know only that other extra turns happen and the last player with Fleet does not get other extra turns. No explicit statement about non-Fleet-players.

So as average player i am stuck with generale rule "do exactly as written, nothing more, nothing less". I would deduct from FAQ i can generate extra turns by Outpost and Mission (if i am not the last Fleet-player) during my Fleet turn and if the player to my left hand has also Fleet i can posses him/her/them (if i am not the last Fleet-player).

Nothing at all indicates that players without Fleet do extra turns. How should the average player (or a translator) guess that? ... just for players with this. seems simple and straightforward. I don't know of a rule which could enlarge that specified group. Without knowledge of this thread tasked to write a FAQ i would have written
  • players without Fleet get no turns during Fleet round. Especially can't such player get possessed.
  • players with Fleet execute other extra turns pending from before Fleet round or initiated in Fleet round as usual.
Hey, Donald wrote something sounding just so:
Fleet doesn't create extra turns; it creates an extra round of turns, and then only some people participate in it. That's how I read it.
bold by me

So how comes it to the ruling non-Fleet-players extra turns get executed? (Rhetoric. I see the way.) To be more precise: how can it get reasoned other than by "Donald said so here"? I mean it is not that somebody presented his interpretation of a whacky text and Donald explained wether it is correct or why not. If there would be some italicized text on Fleet like (player without this execute extra turns until last player-with-this's turn) i would happily bow to it and Donalds ruling about it. Again to be clear: I see Donald's ruling and reasoning and accept it so far, now play it IRL so and explain it so to other players. But still i find it counter-intuitive because it does things not written.

Now last player: the ruling he/she/they get no extra turns seems reasonable. At first. Fleet extends the game by a round so the player triggering Fleet get a chance to play extra turns otherwise forfeited. (Of course in my interpretation he/she/they get that chance only if he/she/they is also Fleet buyer.) So that would not change last turn condition. But what about if the Fleet triggerer has not bought Fleet? Then the last Fleet player get hit by the rule which is written at least in FAQ. Personally i find it unfair compared with other non-Fleet-triggering players i would prefer a ruling saying "if last Fleet player did not trigger Fleet he get extra turns generated in that Fleet turn also." (Possession can't get executed since my interpretation forbid extra turns by non Fleet players.) But still it is a reasonable ruling. I am not happy with it, but i comply to it. Bad luck for last player.
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Ingix

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Re: Fleet extra turns
« Reply #64 on: May 01, 2019, 08:35:04 am »
+3

The key point is that the game is *not* over for every player that didn't buy Fleet during the round of Fleet turns. You get to discard a Tunnel for an opponent's Milita, gain a Gold with it and increase you score due to Palace. You can get your Duchy swindled into a Harvest, loosing points. Why should Possession not affect you?

The only thing you don't get is the "extra turn" granted by Fleet.

I have the feeling we are actually agreeing, but I'm not sure with your post.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Fleet extra turns
« Reply #65 on: May 01, 2019, 11:13:50 am »
+1

Nothing at all indicates that players without Fleet do extra turns. How should the average player (or a translator) guess that? ... just for players with this. seems simple and straightforward. I don't know of a rule which could enlarge that specified group. Without knowledge of this thread tasked to write a FAQ i would have written
  • players without Fleet get no turns during Fleet round. Especially can't such player get possessed.
  • players with Fleet execute other extra turns pending from before Fleet round or initiated in Fleet round as usual.
Hey, Donald wrote something sounding just so:
Fleet doesn't create extra turns; it creates an extra round of turns, and then only some people participate in it. That's how I read it.
bold by me

Why would the fact that you're in "Fleet turns" stop Possession/Outpost/Mission from working? Those specifically say that some player gets an extra turn after this one. It doesn't say anywhere that the extra turn is contingent on or occurs relative to some player's "normal" turn (or Fleet turn).

I agree, though, that the rulebook should have been much more detailed about what exactly Fleet's text is trying to convey.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Fleet extra turns
« Reply #66 on: May 01, 2019, 11:39:55 am »
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Nothing at all indicates that players without Fleet do extra turns. How should the average player (or a translator) guess that? ... just for players with this. seems simple and straightforward. I don't know of a rule which could enlarge that specified group. Without knowledge of this thread tasked to write a FAQ i would have written
  • players without Fleet get no turns during Fleet round. Especially can't such player get possessed.
  • players with Fleet execute other extra turns pending from before Fleet round or initiated in Fleet round as usual.
Hey, Donald wrote something sounding just so:
Fleet doesn't create extra turns; it creates an extra round of turns, and then only some people participate in it. That's how I read it.
bold by me

Why would the fact that you're in "Fleet turns" stop Possession/Outpost/Mission from working? Those specifically say that some player gets an extra turn after this one. It doesn't say anywhere that the extra turn is contingent on or occurs relative to some player's "normal" turn (or Fleet turn).

I agree, though, that the rulebook should have been much more detailed about what exactly Fleet's text is trying to convey.

Because if the bolded text is taken literally, then people who didn't buy Fleet simply aren't a part of the game any more; they don't exist. Similar to a multi-player Magic game when one player loses.

But, we know that the bolded text is NOT to be taken literally, because those people in fact are still participating in the game. They gain Curses when someone plays Witch, etc. It's not that they don't participate in it, it's that they don't get an extra turn from Fleet's effect.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Fleet extra turns
« Reply #67 on: May 01, 2019, 12:04:36 pm »
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Because if the bolded text is taken literally, then people who didn't buy Fleet simply aren't a part of the game any more; they don't exist. Similar to a multi-player Magic game when one player loses.

But, we know that the bolded text is NOT to be taken literally, because those people in fact are still participating in the game. They gain Curses when someone plays Witch, etc. It's not that they don't participate in it, it's that they don't get an extra turn from Fleet's effect.

Even so, if a card specifically said to give an extra turn to, like, a friend who didn't even start playing the game, why wouldn't it be able to do that, Fleet or no? (Assuming it detailed where they were supposed to get their deck and starting hand from.)

EDIT: I guess you're saying that you can interpret it as though the seating order has changed and you can no longer refer to a non-Fleet player as "the player to your left." I guess I could see that. But I wouldn't call that a literal interpretation of anything. I'd call that making assumptions that some text means a bunch of things it doesn't actually (literally) say.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 12:08:37 pm by chipperMDW »
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Jeebus

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Re: Fleet extra turns
« Reply #68 on: May 01, 2019, 01:09:33 pm »
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Back to Fleet: After the game ends, there's an extra round of turns just for players with this. Nothing else. No bracketed text. No italicized text. Nothing additional about it in the rules of rulebook. From FAQ we get to know only that other extra turns happen and the last player with Fleet does not get other extra turns. No explicit statement about non-Fleet-players.

So as average player i am stuck with generale rule "do exactly as written, nothing more, nothing less". I would deduct from FAQ i can generate extra turns by Outpost and Mission (if i am not the last Fleet-player) during my Fleet turn and if the player to my left hand has also Fleet i can posses him/her/them (if i am not the last Fleet-player)

I disagree about the FAQ. When I read it, there was no doubt it my mind that extra turns from Outpost etc will happen for all players. Here it is:

Quote
The extra turns go in order starting with the next player after the one that just took a turn. Other extra turns, such as from Outpost (in Seaside) can happen in-between those turns...

In the first sentence, the "extra turns" (unfortunate phrase) referred to are the Fleet turns. Other extra turns can happen in between.

The card says "there's an extra round of turns just for players with this". I take the card text to mean that there is an extra round consisting of just turns for Fleet players. I interpret "just for players with this" to refer to the turns, not the round. So it does not mean an extra round just for Fleet players. This is evident when you think of what that would mean, as others have pointed out: All non-Fleet players have to participate in this round, or they couldn't even receive a Curse from Witch. (This is also heavily implied in the FAQ, because it says that non-Fleet players don't sort their cards and count VP until the end.)

So there is an extra round of Fleet turns. The card says or implies nothing about other extra turns, but the FAQ does. It says that other extra turns can happen in between. Only players with Fleet get Fleet turns, but that doesn't mean that the other extra turns only apply to players with Fleet.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 01:14:45 pm by Jeebus »
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Heikes Zweiter

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Re: Fleet extra turns
« Reply #69 on: May 01, 2019, 03:34:57 pm »
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The card says "there's an extra round of turns just for players with this". I take the card text to mean that there is an extra round consisting of just turns for Fleet players. I interpret "just for players with this" to refer to the turns, not the round.
Quite funny. Just what i think.

So it does not mean an extra round just for Fleet players. This is evident when you think of what that would mean, as others have pointed out: All non-Fleet players have to participate in this round, or they couldn't even receive a Curse from Witch. (This is also heavily implied in the FAQ, because it says that non-Fleet players don't sort their cards and count VP until the end.)
To all, who seem to think that i want to exclude non Fleet player from the Fleet round totally: quite contrary i was always without doubt and said so that they still participate, just only they should not get any turns.:
Wow. That baffles me. I have had thought, that a player without Fleet would do nothing (except any "each player" or "each other player" or "the player to your left" effects).

So there is an extra round of Fleet turns. The card says or implies nothing about other extra turns, but the FAQ does. It says that other extra turns can happen in between.
Yep, agreed (and never said otherwise). In that point the FAQ does just what it should do: explaining what implicitly is included. The Fleet turn does not have any known restrictions laid on, so that implies i can play Outpost or buy Mission.  And if there are no other objections (e.g. i got possessed before i played Outpost) i get and execute those extra turns. And thats what the FAQ says.

On the other side the FAQ does not explicitly say non Fleet player get extra turns, which it should if that were true because of the then obvious conflict with "players with this".

Only players with Fleet get Fleet turns, but that doesn't mean that the other extra turns only apply to players with Fleet.
That contradicts your own words from above.
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crj

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Re: Fleet extra turns
« Reply #70 on: May 01, 2019, 05:22:30 pm »
+1

To me, the big problem which makes Fleet unintuitive is that the end of the game now appears to mean two different moments in different contexts. Fleet gives people extra turns "after the game ends", but that moment occurs before the "at the end of the game" of Distant Lands, "for the rest of the game" of Embargo/Hireling/Champion, and the rulebook's "The player with the most victory points in his Deck at game end wins."

So first we do the things that happen after the game ends, then we do the things that happen at game end? Huh.
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Donald X.

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Re: Fleet extra turns
« Reply #71 on: May 01, 2019, 06:05:22 pm »
0

The key point is that the game is *not* over for every player that didn't buy Fleet during the round of Fleet turns. You get to discard a Tunnel for an opponent's Milita, gain a Gold with it and increase you score due to Palace. You can get your Duchy swindled into a Harvest, loosing points. Why should Possession not affect you?

The only thing you don't get is the "extra turn" granted by Fleet.
Well put.

The cards can't have computer code on them; that game is unplayable. They try to do well enough for most situations, and there's a rulebook that tries to cover other questions that will come up.

Maybe there was a better wording for Fleet; we put work into it and that was the best we had. I could have not done Fleet; it's the 12th expansion, I need to still do new things that excite people, Fleet seemed worth doing.
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Jeebus

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Re: Fleet extra turns
« Reply #72 on: May 01, 2019, 07:57:58 pm »
0

To all, who seem to think that i want to exclude non Fleet player from the Fleet round totally: quite contrary i was always without doubt and said so that they still participate, just only they should not get any turns.:

Right, you did say that.

Only players with Fleet get Fleet turns, but that doesn't mean that the other extra turns only apply to players with Fleet.
That contradicts your own words from above.

No, you're failing to understand my point. Which quote do you mean?

As I said, there is an extra round of Fleet turns. This doesn't mean that there are only Fleet turns. Indeed, the FAQ explicitly says that that is not the case: There can also be other extra turns. But the card only says who gets Fleet turns. It doesn't say who gets or doesn't get other extra turns. Neither does the FAQ. The card gives turns to Fleet players, not to other players. But it doesn't regulate any other actitivity in the extra round.

hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Fleet extra turns
« Reply #73 on: May 01, 2019, 11:24:27 pm »
0

The cards can't have computer code on them; that game is unplayable. They try to do well enough for most situations, and there's a rulebook that tries to cover other questions that will come up.

Maybe there was a better wording for Fleet; we put work into it and that was the best we had. I could have not done Fleet; it's the 12th expansion, I need to still do new things that excite people, Fleet seemed worth doing.

Given that the cards can't have computer code on them, and given the sheer amount and variety of cards, I would say that Dominion does an exceptional job of having very few cards/card interactions which need to refer you to the rulebook. Renaissance had Capitalism and Fleet, and that was about it. Granted, it was the simplest expansion out of the last few, but even the most complex ones don't have very many. That's one of the reasons it's my favorite game. Also the fact that new exciting things like Fleet are still out there waiting to be designed.
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Holger

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Re: Fleet extra turns
« Reply #74 on: May 02, 2019, 03:33:37 am »
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To me, the big problem which makes Fleet unintuitive is that the end of the game now appears to mean two different moments in different contexts. Fleet gives people extra turns "after the game ends", but that moment occurs before the "at the end of the game" of Distant Lands, "for the rest of the game" of Embargo/Hireling/Champion, and the rulebook's "The player with the most victory points in his Deck at game end wins."

So first we do the things that happen after the game ends, then we do the things that happen at game end? Huh.
Yes, that also bothered me - taken literally, the Fleet turns shouldn't matter because they happen after determining the final scores. I think the card should have said "When the game would end, ..." This is intuitively clearer and follows the precedent of Trader that "would gain" happens before actual gaining.

On another matter, when is it determined which players get the extra turn, at the nominal game end or when it would be their Fleet turn? Possession could cause a player to buy Fleet after "game end" but before it would be their Fleet turn.
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