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Author Topic: Third-order interaction. Fourth-order interaction?  (Read 658 times)

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greybirdofprey

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Third-order interaction. Fourth-order interaction?
« on: November 05, 2018, 07:23:23 am »
+2

So I use this weird naming scheme where first-order interaction pertains to cards which cause player interaction on their own (Attacks, stuff like Council Room), second-order interaction pertains to cards which aren't interaction cards on their own, but become them when certain cards are in the kingdom (for example, Rocks can be second-order interaction when Swindler or trashing attacks are in the kingdom), and third-order interaction cards are cards that are NOT first- or second-order, but become interaction cards when certain second-order interactions are in the game with the first-order interactions that make them second-order interactions. For example, Militia is first-order interaction, Caravan Guard is second-order interaction when Militia is on the board, Royal Carriage and Coin of the Realm are third-order interaction when Militia and Caravan Guard are on the board (because when someone plays Militia, you can play Caravan Guard from your hand, and call Royal Carriage/Coin of the Realm).

Some cards have multiple orders (Duchess is first-order by playing it, second-order when someone else gives you a Duchy through Swindler or Ambassador).

Now here are the puzzles:
-Find a loop where a card can keep getting in a higher-order of interaction (or show it's impossible).
-Find a fourth-order interaction card that isn't first- to third-order interaction (or show it's impossible).
-Find the highest possible amount of orders a card has without looping (using the same triggers when climbing orders, e.g. playing Possession in a Possession turn).
-The above challenges without using Attacks (or show it's impossible).
-The above challenges without using Possession (or show it's impossible).
-The above challenges without using Possession and Attacks (or show it's impossible).

Now I haven't given a clear definition for interaction cards. I can't give you a definition, but I can give you lots of examples (not exhaustive):
-Events: Raid, Tax.
-Landmarks: any Landmark where you put VP tokens on piles in the set-up. Mountain Pass.
-Projects: Road Network.
-Cards that use Boons/Hexes, as using Boons/Hexes changes what Boons/Hexes other players will get.
-Cards that care about emptying piles like City, Poacher, Tower.
-Trade Route, Embargo.
-All Attacks.
-All cards that directly influence other player's 'game state'.

Not interaction:
-The usual emptying of piles. Emptying of Split piles/Knights/Ruins.
-Obelisk, as it only changes the property of a card.
-Lighthouse (doesn't trigger).

You can only get to another order of interaction through 'triggering events'. When an [X]-order interaction card triggers something else (before having completely resolved it, but cards that say 'after' also count), then that something else is an [X+1]-order interaction card. Like in the aforementioned example, playing Caravan Guard 'triggers' calling Royal Carriage.

[Xth]-order interaction cards played during a Possession turn become [X+1th]-order interaction cards.

If you're not sure about a triggering event or whether something is first-order interaction, use your intuition.
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majiponi

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Re: Third-order interaction. Fourth-order interaction?
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2018, 03:03:24 am »
+1

How about this?

play Ambassador
your opponent plays Caravan Guard (from Black Market)
she calls Royal Carriage 4 times
reveal Emporium

This game doesn't use any other Durations or Reserves. Emporium cannot be 1st to 3rd order interaction in this game.
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ghostofmars

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Re: Third-order interaction. Fourth-order interaction?
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2018, 03:55:41 am »
0

Wouldn't Trader technically qualify as an infinite loop? You gain a silver and the reveal Trader to gain a silver instead. Obviously Possession also involves an infinite loop.

If we do not allow Trader to replace the silver it gained and do not use Possession or Attacks, I think we are limited by the amount of Market Squares.
A: gain a Province
B: trash Fool's Gold - gain a Gold
loop until out of Market Squares:
  B: discard Market Square - gain a gold
  B: reveal Trader - gain a silver instead
  B: reveal Watchtower - trash the silver
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MeNowDealWithIt

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Re: Third-order interaction. Fourth-order interaction?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2019, 07:56:44 pm »
0

How about this?

play Ambassador
your opponent plays Caravan Guard (from Black Market)
she calls Royal Carriage 4 times
reveal Emporium

This game doesn't use any other Durations or Reserves. Emporium cannot be 1st to 3rd order interaction in this game.

If Emporium counts as another order of interaction here, then so would a Duplicate on the tavern mat.
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faust

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Re: Third-order interaction. Fourth-order interaction?
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2019, 01:14:39 am »
0

How about this?

play Ambassador
your opponent plays Caravan Guard (from Black Market)
she calls Royal Carriage 4 times
reveal Emporium

This game doesn't use any other Durations or Reserves. Emporium cannot be 1st to 3rd order interaction in this game.

If Emporium counts as another order of interaction here, then so would a Duplicate on the tavern mat.
No; Duplicate can be used to directly react to the Ambassador gain and is therefore a second order interaction card.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

King Leon

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Re: Third-order interaction. Fourth-order interaction?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2019, 03:08:45 pm »
0

I guess, there will be something possible with Scepter, but I find no way to return Mandarin to the Black Market pile. Does someone have a clue?

1. Throne Room (A)
1.1. Throne Room (B)
1.1.1. Black Market (A)
1.1.1.1. Scepter
1.1.1.1.1. Replay Throne Room (A)
1.1.1.1.1.1. Black Market (B)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1. Buy Mandarin from the Black Market, topdecking Scepter
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bitwise

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Re: Third-order interaction. Fourth-order interaction?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2019, 05:33:09 pm »
+1

You could have Mandarin as its own supply pile, Haggler in play, Trader in hand, and a $6+ cost in the Black Market pile. Then you can buy the 6 cost, revealing trader to not actually take it from the deck, but still gain a Mandarin from the supply.
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King Leon

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Re: Third-order interaction. Fourth-order interaction?
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2019, 07:33:58 pm »
0

When you have Capitalism and gain Mandarin with Rogue, do you topdeck Rogue? I guess this also could be used for endless recursions.
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