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Author Topic: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)  (Read 2175 times)

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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2018, 09:39:58 am »
+1

This is false. If you overdraw your deck adding more draw power doesn't increase Coin (or Coffers) yield.

While you are of course totally right that drawing cards make it more likely that you draw payload cards it is simply a bad way to think about the game because there is often an elementary trade-off about adding draw or payload power to a deck. Pretending that the former implies the latter is not helpful at all for deck construction and I seriously doubt that you actually think according to your "Cards=Coins" claim during playing. If the game were so simple it would be solved.

If you "overdraw" your deck, the real problem is that you have overtrashed your deck.

Well, sometimes overdraw is good, for example with mid-turn gaining or discard for benefit.
Somehow you've come full circle and now try to use the original argument Awaclus was making against him. I suggest always checking the context of a discussion to avoid chiming in with a completely beside-the-point comment.

Awaclus never said that in this topic. Maybe one of his other posts implied it somehow, but I'm not seeing that right now. Either way, surely he doesn't need you to defend him so furiously? You sound like an overzealous groupie.
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Awaclus

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2018, 10:00:33 am »
+1

Awaclus never said that in this topic. Maybe one of his other posts implied it somehow, but I'm not seeing that right now. Either way, surely he doesn't need you to defend him so furiously? You sound like an overzealous groupie.

I said that draw is economy, because it puts cards into your hand which generate coins. Holunder9 said that was false, because what if you're overdrawing your deck. I said that if you're overdrawing your deck, the problem isn't that you're drawing too many cards, it's that you trashed too many cards. You said that sometimes overdraw is good if it puts cards into your hand which generate coins. You seriously don't think anything is funny here?
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Jimmmy

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2018, 10:29:00 am »
0

I already shared this on the reddit thread and I'm gonna share here too. I've also added some new charts since yesterday.
https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/1jJC2C3MhJ2OBMRyq-EOP20zuR_2taSh3
Explanation of Violin Plots

Re:research

Most duration cards are great for reliability, starting with extra stuff next turn is strong.

Research is getting above average ratings, which I believe is due to the heuristic that 1 mega turn is better than 2 okay turns. It's a non-terminal trasher, that you can get in your opening shuffle. That alone should give it a good rating. The rest of the game-play will be determined by what else is in the kingdom, and skilled play. I feel like it's a high-skill card because blindly trashing good cards can easily backfire, as you say. Cards can miss shuffle, not enough +actions next turn, not enough +buys next turn.

I'm also surprised by Flag Bearer. It's got slightly below average rating, but has a huge variation in opinion though. Which I think stems from how people rate cards. Using Adam's criteria, I feel like it's a "support card in most decks" by itself (7) but "is almost never ignorable" (9). If you don't play with it, you're allowing your opponent a huge advantage for $4 and a card slot. I leaned on the low side at 7 because you don't want to be the first to buy it. That still makes it "above average". I'm very curious to play games with it to see how the fight over artifacts plays out.

First I was also surprised by Flag Bearer. I mean it's a card that you have to buy if your opponent has the flag, cannot ignore it. But as you said you never want to be the first to buy it. The second player who gets it almost always get more value from it. That way optimally nobody should buy it on most boards.
The only cases I can think of when it's reasonable to buy it is:
1. You think your opponent misplays and doesn't contest the flag
2. You are ahead and can afford the money, buys, trashes to contest the flag, much more than your opponent

So I think it's going to end up as a win more card, and I would not rate it high anymore.
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Awaclus

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2018, 10:42:28 am »
0

At least in Renaissance heavy games (which have lots of great trashing), the first Flag has seemed pretty good in the absence of more important things to do. The first extra card draw that you get from the Flag is ALSO PROMPT, which means that you can sometimes break the symmetry in your favor by timing the Flag buy correctly — e.g. you can buy it when you know your opponent has small or nonexistent chances of hitting $4 in their current hand, or you can buy it when your extra card does something more useful than your opponent's extra card assuming they buy it on their next turn.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2018, 02:12:21 pm »
+6

How does Apprentice give you economy? I thought economy referred to the ability to add new cards to your deck, generally through generating money, but possibly gainers as well? If simply card draw counts as economy, then almost every card in Dominion gives you economy in some way.

Card draw counts as economy, through generating money through putting Coppers into your hand.

If this is what people mean when they say that a card provides economy; then it’s a pretty meaningless term that applies to just about every card in Dominion.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2018, 02:16:31 pm »
+1

I said that draw is economy, because it puts cards into your hand which generate coins. Holunder9 said that was false, because what if you're overdrawing your deck. I said that if you're overdrawing your deck, the problem isn't that you're drawing too many cards, it's that you trashed too many cards. You said that sometimes overdraw is good if it puts cards into your hand which generate coins. You seriously don't think anything is funny here?

I really don't, and you're attributing something to my name which I never said. Other than the fact that the notion that 'draw is economy' is a misleading statement, you didn't mention mid-turn gaining or discard for benefit and I had no reason to assume that's what you meant. But even if I did, my post replied to a different post of yours, where you said that overdraw is a sign that you overtrashed, which is also a misleading statement.
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Holunder9

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2018, 02:34:59 pm »
+3

I gotta admit, I kinda like Awaclus's Unified Theory of Dominion:
"Everything is economy!"
It is short, it is simple, it is involuntarily funny and it is utterly wrong.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2018, 03:48:55 pm »
0

I gotta admit, I kinda like Awaclus's Unified Theory of Dominion:
"Everything is economy!"
It is short, it is simple, it is involuntarily funny and it is utterly wrong.

Rogue is a Village.
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Awaclus

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2018, 10:17:23 pm »
0

If this is what people mean when they say that a card provides economy; then it’s a pretty meaningless term that applies to just about every card in Dominion.

It doesn't apply to Chapel or Village. It's not a meaningless term, this is exactly the meaning that you need to consider when you're trying to maximize your chances of hitting $5 in the early game.

I really don't, and you're attributing something to my name which I never said. Other than the fact that the notion that 'draw is economy' is a misleading statement, you didn't mention mid-turn gaining or discard for benefit and I had no reason to assume that's what you meant. But even if I did, my post replied to a different post of yours, where you said that overdraw is a sign that you overtrashed, which is also a misleading statement.

"Draw is economy" is not a misleading statement, it is a true statement. Of course I didn't mean mid-turn gaining or discard for benefit because that's never relevant on turn 3 or turn 5, but nevertheless the reason why overdraw is sometimes good in the late game is the exact same reason why draw is economy in the early game.

"Overdraw is a sign that you overtrashed" is also not a misleading statement, it is a true statement. If you play a Smithy on turn 6 and it doesn't draw three cards, that means you trashed too much too fast.

I gotta admit, I kinda like Awaclus's Unified Theory of Dominion:
"Everything is economy!"
It is short, it is simple, it is involuntarily funny and it is utterly wrong.

No, only the things that help you hit $5 are economy.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2018, 10:38:27 pm »
+2

Playing a Smithy allows you to have more Coppers in hand, so Smithy is economy. Playing a Village allows you to play more Smithies; thus allowing you to have more Coppers in hand.

Playing Chapel is economy like Royal Carriage is; it increases the number of coin you have on future turns.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 10:40:09 pm by GendoIkari »
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Awaclus

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2018, 10:45:30 pm »
0

Playing a Smithy allows you to have more Coppers in hand, so Smithy is economy. Playing a Village allows you to play more Smithies; thus allowing you to have more Coppers in hand.

Playing Chapel is economy like Royal Carriage is; it increases the number of coin you have on future turns.

How many times have you opened Village/Chapel and hit $5?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2018, 12:54:24 am »
+2

Playing a Smithy allows you to have more Coppers in hand, so Smithy is economy. Playing a Village allows you to play more Smithies; thus allowing you to have more Coppers in hand.

Playing Chapel is economy like Royal Carriage is; it increases the number of coin you have on future turns.

How many times have you opened Village/Chapel and hit $5?

If you only use Chapel to trash Estates, then you’ll hit $5 plenty. Anyway, you can use whatever term you feel like, but it sounds like I’m not alone in assuming that “economy” actually has to do with how much stuff your deck can afford, rather than how likely it is to hit a particular number that happens to be a number that has a lot of strong cards with that cost.
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Awaclus

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2018, 01:46:44 am »
0

If you only use Chapel to trash Estates, then you’ll hit $5 plenty. Anyway, you can use whatever term you feel like, but it sounds like I’m not alone in assuming that “economy” actually has to do with how much stuff your deck can afford, rather than how likely it is to hit a particular number that happens to be a number that has a lot of strong cards with that cost.

You don't get the benefit of Estate trashing from Chapel until after a few reshuffles, and due to inflation, just buying Treasure would probably be better economy. Trashing an Estate before the first reshuffle with Cathedral or Plan, however, is extremely good for economy.

How much stuff your deck can afford is more in the payload territory, and irrelevant until you're actually drawing your entire deck.
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