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Author Topic: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)  (Read 1512 times)

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AdamH

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Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« on: November 05, 2018, 07:06:17 am »
+6

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfg1XjzjruG8Tz1eSUCc2f_UYOSP_CgLZBWFtHJfeM5adsUXg/viewform

It's that time again where I collect the first impressions of the community right after seeing the cards from the newest expansion: Renaissance! Please offer your opinions on how powerful each card/project in the new expansion is on a scale from 0 to 10.

I'll leave this poll up for about a week and at that time I'll collect the data and make a blog post presenting it similar to this one for Nocturne -- of course I will link that post here and anywhere else I solicit entries for the form.

Below is a copypasta of what's in the Google Form in case you want some more detail about this without clicking on the link:

Quote
Let's have some fun by doing this right after seeing the Renaissance cards for the first time! Just your first impressions on these cards will be useful to know, so we can see how things compare to when we've had more time to play with the cards.

Rate each Renaissance card (or card-shaped-object) on a scale from 0-10, with 10 being the most powerful. The cost of the card, not just the effect, should be taken into account for your score.

0. In case you'd like a reference for what everything does:

A pdf of the Renaissance rulebook can be found here: http://riograndegames.com/Game/1334-Dominion-Renaissance
The DS Wiki page for Renaissance can be found here: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Renaissance

1. Your name is "required," you can put anything there though -- I'd prefer some username that I can recognize so that I can make sure submissions are unique. If you troll me, I reserve the right to not count your input :-P

If you use a name that you've used in a previous one of my surveys and you'd like your ratings to be linked to your previous entries, please use the same name you've used before (minor typos or variations are OK as long as I know it's you) -- here's the list of all current entries:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hdwfog1xPuyNO6mFAZZnP2p_eZmVu5GFK_t7e0306sA/edit?usp=sharing

2. You can pick and choose which cards you rate -- feel free to leave some cards blank if you don't want to rate them for whatever reason.

3. You may use whatever criteria you like for your ratings, but I have a guideline that can be used as an example or a template if you would like something to get you started -- the examples in parentheses are just my opinions, feel free to disagree!

0 - Adding the card would make most decks worse than adding nothing (Scout, Secret Chamber)
1 - The card almost never sees play in good decks, and when it does, its effect is marginal at best
3 - The card is not necessarily bad, but usually doesn't play a key role in any deck; still not worth picking up some of the time
5 - The card plays a minor supporting role in many decks, or has some synergies that make it good in a few situations
7 - The card plays a support role in most decks, plays a critical role in many decks, or can be the backbone of good or mediocre decks with proper support
9 - The card is almost never ignorable, and usually plays a large role in the best decks that can be built
10 - The card warps the strategic and/or tactical landscape, causing most games to revolve around it. Ignoring or misusing the card will almost always result in a clear loss (Donate, King's Court)

A final note: I will answer questions here if needed, but I would prefer to communicate via PM if possible.
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Simon Jester

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2018, 09:28:18 am »
+2

This was hard. Especially Projects. I feel that almost everyone are obviously strong in the way that you probaby always going to get one, but how impactful they will be is entirely depended on, well, the kingdom. They change the game, but more in a landmark kind of way than most Events.

Some more than others though. Can we call 10 capitalism-level already? 

 

Ethan

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2018, 09:50:32 am »
+1

Done.
How many people voted for Nocturne last time?
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AdamH

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2018, 09:55:58 am »
+1

Done.
How many people voted for Nocturne last time?

41 people gave initial impressions, 22 submitted responses in the second round when I made another poll to see how things changed.
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AdamH

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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2018, 08:59:04 am »
+10

Just posting to say that it's good to see you on the forums here :)
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Reykjavik

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2018, 11:04:36 pm »
0

I just bought research for the first time, and I am significantly underwhelmed.

Most duration cards are great for reliability, starting with extra stuff next turn is strong. Not so much research, if you have a strong enough engine to draw the deck and want some reliability, research can't do it. You set the cards aside when you play it, you don't draw extra at the start of next turn. All the cards that you set aside can't be played until next turn.

It isn't a bad trasher, it does fine on estates, and at least it isn't terminal for other junk, and doesn't miss reshuffles if you don't set aside cards. Once the junk is trashed though, it isn't so great.

I suppose it could be strong with storeroom, but that is a lot of work to get working, first I need two researches because duration, then I need a couple villages, and some other source of draw, and then at least one storeroom, preferably two (one to sift the junk I set aside every turn to ensure I don't have a dud turn, and one to turn the junk into coin after it is redrawn). Maybe it could be a little sleeker than that if the right enablers are on the board, but I think I'd rather have a couple silvers and golds.
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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2018, 01:31:39 am »
+1

I think it's great, especially as an opener or decks that lack draw. Just kill a gold for 6 cards in your next hand.
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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2018, 01:46:12 pm »
+1

I already shared this on the reddit thread and I'm gonna share here too. I've also added some new charts since yesterday.
https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/1jJC2C3MhJ2OBMRyq-EOP20zuR_2taSh3
Explanation of Violin Plots

Re:research

Most duration cards are great for reliability, starting with extra stuff next turn is strong.

Research is getting above average ratings, which I believe is due to the heuristic that 1 mega turn is better than 2 okay turns. It's a non-terminal trasher, that you can get in your opening shuffle. That alone should give it a good rating. The rest of the game-play will be determined by what else is in the kingdom, and skilled play. I feel like it's a high-skill card because blindly trashing good cards can easily backfire, as you say. Cards can miss shuffle, not enough +actions next turn, not enough +buys next turn.

I'm also surprised by Flag Bearer. It's got slightly below average rating, but has a huge variation in opinion though. Which I think stems from how people rate cards. Using Adam's criteria, I feel like it's a "support card in most decks" by itself (7) but "is almost never ignorable" (9). If you don't play with it, you're allowing your opponent a huge advantage for $4 and a card slot. I leaned on the low side at 7 because you don't want to be the first to buy it. That still makes it "above average". I'm very curious to play games with it to see how the fight over artifacts plays out.
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Awaclus

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2018, 02:20:44 pm »
0

Research is great. It helps you cycle your deck very fast, it gives you economy, it gives you trashing, so it's basically everything that you want to do in the early game in a single non-terminal card. Later on you can use it to trash cards for draw.
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Holunder9

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2018, 03:51:26 pm »
0

Research is great. It helps you cycle your deck very fast, it gives you economy, it gives you trashing, so it's basically everything that you want to do in the early game in a single non-terminal card. Later on you can use it to trash cards for draw.
Research doesn't give you economy, it is just a Duration Apprentice. The only really powerful trasher in this set is Recruiter.
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Simon Jester

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2018, 04:23:29 pm »
0

Research is great. It helps you cycle your deck very fast, it gives you economy, it gives you trashing, so it's basically everything that you want to do in the early game in a single non-terminal card. Later on you can use it to trash cards for draw.
Research doesn't give you economy, it is just a Duration Apprentice. The only really powerful trasher in this set is Recruiter.

Recruiter is quite situational though, if you end up in a kingdom with lots of village support you rather have a salvager. Or a research.

Granted, when Recruiter is good I'm sure it's bonkers, I just haven't really seen it myself yet.

Holunder9

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2018, 05:16:57 pm »
+3

I disagree; Villagers are always moderately useful as they guarantee perfect engine consistency. Also, gaining them en masse via Recruiter is a partial substitute for gaining villages which means that you can gain some other stuff early in the game.

Whenever you manage to trash an Estate with Recruiter, which happens with an extremely high likelihood early on, the card is better than a Lost City that trashes, i.e. better than:

+2 Cards
+2 Actions

Trash a card from your hand.

This is totally bonkers. The only reason this overpowered card is still playable is that it doesn't take the fun out of games like Cultist or Rebuild do.

Also note that the card is at worst a Masquerade (without the passing), one of the strongest $3 trashers.
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Simon Jester

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2018, 05:32:22 pm »
0

I disagree; Villagers are always moderately useful as they guarantee perfect engine consistency. Also, gaining them en masse via Recruiter is a partial substitute for gaining villages which means that you can gain some other stuff early in the game.

Whenever you manage to trash an Estate with Recruiter, which happens with an extremely high likelihood early on, the card is better than a Lost City that trashes, i.e. better than:

+2 Cards
+2 Actions

Trash a card from your hand.

This is totally bonkers. The only reason this overpowered card is still playable is that it doesn't take the fun out of games like Cultist or Rebuild do.

Also note that the card is at worst a Masquerade (without the passing), one of the strongest $3 trashers.

Yes, but the drawback is that it cost 5 and if you cant open with it it's value diminish, e.g it will be harder to trash estates. Costing 4 or below for a trasher is quite important and it's rather because of that 5 trashers are allowed to be really strong. A Recruiter opening is elite in virtually any kingdom, I admit, but so is Sentry, Junk Dealer and Count. If there is villages in the kingdom and your opponent manages to open Recruiter you aren't done. Even less with a cheap trasher in the kingdom.

And, oh, don't forget about Projects. With Sewers and Cathedral, Recruiter is hardly the only strong trasher in Renaissance.
 

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2018, 09:26:11 pm »
0

Research is great. It helps you cycle your deck very fast, it gives you economy, it gives you trashing, so it's basically everything that you want to do in the early game in a single non-terminal card. Later on you can use it to trash cards for draw.
Research doesn't give you economy, it is just a Duration Apprentice. The only really powerful trasher in this set is Recruiter.

Apprentice gives you economy, therefore Research gives you economy. It's ridiculous to say that the only powerful trasher in the set is Recruiter when the set also has the significantly-more-powerful-than-Recruiter Cathedral, and Priest and Research are definitely very powerful as well.
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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2018, 10:36:14 pm »
+1

And, Sewers. That's strong as well.
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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2018, 01:57:33 am »
+2

Research is great. It helps you cycle your deck very fast, it gives you economy, it gives you trashing, so it's basically everything that you want to do in the early game in a single non-terminal card. Later on you can use it to trash cards for draw.
Research doesn't give you economy, it is just a Duration Apprentice. The only really powerful trasher in this set is Recruiter.

Apprentice gives you economy, therefore Research gives you economy. It's ridiculous to say that the only powerful trasher in the set is Recruiter when the set also has the significantly-more-powerful-than-Recruiter Cathedral, and Priest and Research are definitely very powerful as well.

How does Apprentice give you economy? I thought economy referred to the ability to add new cards to your deck, generally through generating money, but possibly gainers as well? If simply card draw counts as economy, then almost every card in Dominion gives you economy in some way.
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Awaclus

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2018, 02:11:34 am »
0

How does Apprentice give you economy? I thought economy referred to the ability to add new cards to your deck, generally through generating money, but possibly gainers as well? If simply card draw counts as economy, then almost every card in Dominion gives you economy in some way.

Card draw counts as economy, through generating money through putting Coppers into your hand.
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Holunder9

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2018, 04:02:00 am »
+2

And, oh, don't forget about Projects. With Sewers and Cathedral, Recruiter is hardly the only strong trasher in Renaissance.
Arguably true. But none of these cards draw which is the main reason for Recruiter being overpowered. A Necropolis that trashes isn't particularly impressive, a Lost City that does is. And while it is sometimes "just" as Masquerade, when you trash a Coppers or Curse, it is also sometimes more than a Lost City that trashes: Flag Bearer, Fortress, a superfluous Silver, Silk Merchant and so on.


How does Apprentice give you economy? I thought economy referred to the ability to add new cards to your deck, generally through generating money, but possibly gainers as well? If simply card draw counts as economy, then almost every card in Dominion gives you economy in some way.

Card draw counts as economy, through generating money through putting Coppers into your hand.
This is false. If you overdraw your deck adding more draw power doesn't increase Coin (or Coffers) yield.

While you are of course totally right that drawing cards make it more likely that you draw payload cards it is simply a bad way to think about the game because there is often an elementary trade-off about adding draw or payload power to a deck. Pretending that the former implies the latter is not helpful at all for deck construction and I seriously doubt that you actually think according to your "Cards=Coins" claim during playing. If the game were so simple it would be solved.
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Simon Jester

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2018, 04:52:13 am »
0

And, oh, don't forget about Projects. With Sewers and Cathedral, Recruiter is hardly the only strong trasher in Renaissance.
Arguably true. But none of these cards draw which is the main reason for Recruiter being overpowered. A Necropolis that trashes isn't particularly impressive, a Lost City that does is. And while it is sometimes "just" as Masquerade, when you trash a Coppers or Curse, it is also sometimes more than a Lost City that trashes: Flag Bearer, Fortress, a superfluous Silver, Silk Merchant and so on.

Hm. I'm still not convinced that it is THAT good. Lost City can be overvalued, you really can't just buy recruiters and cruise for victory, can you? You still need something good to draw and then again can the trashing requirement become a problem rather than an asset. If I need to trash economy as in silver I rather want cash or draw than villagers in many situations.

Look, I think I'm going from a medium player perspective and it's then dangerous to see a card as OP-omgomg because it can so easy be turned into a trap and the games I have had with Recruiter that has kind of being the case. Assuming that you know what you're doing A-play level it's of course really good, but then you are capable to avoid it's traps. I don't see it being overpowered, just really good when it should be really good, because sometimes it's as you say a masquerade for 5, or a card that turns your economy into village idiotism and well, that's a pretty crucial drawback.

Holunder9

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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2018, 05:49:57 am »
0

I don't have a lot of experience with the card but whenever it was in the Kingdom getting 1 or 2 led to a win. Trashing Silvers is not something you do very often with Recruiter. But note that in general you very often like to get rid of 1 or 2 Silvers that you needed for buildup and Recruiter is one of the sweetest cards to use for achieving that goal.
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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2018, 05:57:00 am »
+2

I find the power of Recruiter is not so much that it can be a Lost City but rather that you can smooth out. When trashing your starting cards, it can be a Lab 6/10 times, and the other times you probably didn't draw any actions anyway.
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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2018, 06:56:05 am »
0

This is false. If you overdraw your deck adding more draw power doesn't increase Coin (or Coffers) yield.

While you are of course totally right that drawing cards make it more likely that you draw payload cards it is simply a bad way to think about the game because there is often an elementary trade-off about adding draw or payload power to a deck. Pretending that the former implies the latter is not helpful at all for deck construction and I seriously doubt that you actually think according to your "Cards=Coins" claim during playing. If the game were so simple it would be solved.

If you "overdraw" your deck, the real problem is that you have overtrashed your deck.
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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2018, 08:33:45 am »
+2

This is false. If you overdraw your deck adding more draw power doesn't increase Coin (or Coffers) yield.

While you are of course totally right that drawing cards make it more likely that you draw payload cards it is simply a bad way to think about the game because there is often an elementary trade-off about adding draw or payload power to a deck. Pretending that the former implies the latter is not helpful at all for deck construction and I seriously doubt that you actually think according to your "Cards=Coins" claim during playing. If the game were so simple it would be solved.

If you "overdraw" your deck, the real problem is that you have overtrashed your deck.

Well, sometimes overdraw is good, for example with mid-turn gaining or discard for benefit.
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Re: Renaissance Cards Power Level (first impressions)
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2018, 08:38:37 am »
+1

This is false. If you overdraw your deck adding more draw power doesn't increase Coin (or Coffers) yield.

While you are of course totally right that drawing cards make it more likely that you draw payload cards it is simply a bad way to think about the game because there is often an elementary trade-off about adding draw or payload power to a deck. Pretending that the former implies the latter is not helpful at all for deck construction and I seriously doubt that you actually think according to your "Cards=Coins" claim during playing. If the game were so simple it would be solved.

If you "overdraw" your deck, the real problem is that you have overtrashed your deck.

Well, sometimes overdraw is good, for example with mid-turn gaining or discard for benefit.
Somehow you've come full circle and now try to use the original argument Awaclus was making against him. I suggest always checking the context of a discussion to avoid chiming in with a completely beside-the-point comment.
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