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Author Topic: Renaissance rulebook is up  (Read 2256 times)

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greybirdofprey

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Renaissance rulebook is up
« on: November 05, 2018, 06:56:08 am »
+4

http://riograndegames.com/Game/1334-Dominion-Renaissance , click on 'Download Game Assets' in the top right.

I'm sad there's not that much first-order non-attack interaction and no alt-VP but overall it looks great, with a lot of thinking man's cards and emergent complexity. I'm getting a Dark Agy (Age-y?) feel with it. Patron may pose problems for non-English versions, though.

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ipofanes

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2018, 07:25:47 am »
0

Patron may pose problems for non-English versions, though.

This was exactly my thought when I read it.
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faust

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2018, 08:00:13 am »
+1

Technically both Lantern and Enchantress cause me to do something else than following the play instructions on a card. Do I get to choose the order, and does it make a difference?
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2018, 08:01:26 am »
+9

New cards:

Quote
Border Guard - - Action
+1 Action
Reveal the top 2 cards of your deck. Put one into your hand and discard the other. If both were Actions, take the Lantern or Horn.
Quote
Horn - Articaft
Once per turn, when you discard a Border Guard from play, you may put it onto your deck.
Quote
Lantern - Artifact
Your Border Guards reveal 3 cards and discard 2. (It takes all 3 being Actions to take the Horn.)
Quote
Cargo Ship - - Action/Duration
+
Once this turn, when you gain a card, you may set it aside face up (on this). At the start of your next turn, put it into your hand.
Quote
Hideout - - Action
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Trash a card from your hand. If it’s a Victory card, gain a Curse.
Quote
Improve - - Action
+
At the start of Clean-up, you may trash an Action card you would discard from play this turn, to gain a card costing exactly more than it.
Quote
Inventor -
Gain a card costing up to , then cards cost less this turn (but not less than ).
Quote
Lackeys - - Action
+2 Cards
-----------
When you gain this, +2 Villagers.
Quote
Old Witch - - Action/Attack
+3 Cards
Each other player gains a Curse and may trash a Curse from their hand.
Quote
Patron - - Action/Reaction
+1 Villager
+
-----------
When something causes you to reveal this (using the word “reveal”), +1 Coffers.
Quote
Research - - Action/Duration
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand. Per it costs, set aside a card from your deck face down (on this). At the start of your next turn, put those cards into your hand.
Quote
Scepter - - Treasure
When you play this, choose one: +; or replay an Action card you played this turn that’s still in play
Quote
Spices - - Treasuer
Worth
+1 Buy
-----------
When you gain this, +2 Coffers.

Projects:
Quote
Academy -
When you gain an Action card, +1 Villager
Quote
Barracks -
At the start of your turn, +1 Action
Quote
Canal -
During your turns, cards cost less, but not less than .
Quote
Capitalism -
During your turns, Actions with + amounts in their text are also Treasures.
Quote
Cathedral -
At the start of your turn, trash a card from your hand.
Quote
City Gate -
At the start of your turn, +1 Card, then put a card from your hand onto your deck.
Quote
Crop Rotation -
At the start of your turn, you may discard a Victory card for +2 Cards.
Quote
Exploration -
At the end of your Buy phase, if you didn’t buy any cards, +1 Coffers and +1 Villager.
Quote
Fleet -
After the game ends, there’s an extra round of turns just for players with this
Quote
Guildhall -
When you gain a Treasure, +1 Coffers.
Quote
Pageant -
At the end of your Buy phase, you may pay for +1 Coffers
Quote
Piazza -
At the start of your turn, reveal the top card of your deck. If it’s an Action, play it.
Quote
Road Network -
When another player gains a Victory card, +1 Card.
Quote
Sinister Plot -
At the start of your turn, add a token here, or remove your tokens here for +1 Card each.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2018, 09:02:44 am »
+5

So Capitalism breaks everything? I think Donald X. is trying to tell us something...
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2018, 09:06:54 am »
+1

The biggest surprise for me is Cathedral.
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ipofanes

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2018, 09:19:59 am »
0

City Gate is a gimped Secret Passage, Silos looks so much better for one $ more. Exceptions like Vassal, Mystic, Sentry or Lookout apply.

Road Network is a staple in multiplayer games.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 09:21:01 am by ipofanes »
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Simon Jester

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2018, 09:22:22 am »
+1

The biggest surprise for me is Cathedral.

I'm so pleased. Been waiting so long for that name to show up and was heartbroken when the only card to beat chapel in trashing-crazyness was named Donate. Now everything is good with the world again.

When it comes to names I'm a bit annoyed with Piazza, I associate the name with discard for coffers or at least something with +buy. This feels more like a Herald/throne room thing. Ah, well, that is details. At least it's probably not at risk at be confused with Plaza being a sideway card.

LastFootnote

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2018, 09:26:46 am »
+1

Technically both Lantern and Enchantress cause me to do something else than following the play instructions on a card. Do I get to choose the order, and does it make a difference?

Effectively, Enchantress supersedes Lantern. You’ll just get +1 Card and +1 Action.
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RandomGuy804

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2018, 09:29:30 am »
0

Cathedral/sewers... At the cost of your first two turns, you could gain the ability to trash two cards at the start of your turn.

Also, question: can you place multiple project cubes on the same project? If so, imagine two cubes on capitalism to turn actions into silvers.
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2018, 09:35:24 am »
+3

So Capitalism breaks everything? I think Donald X. is trying to tell us something...

From the guy who designed 12 expansions at $44.95 MSRP each?   ;D
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2018, 09:35:59 am »
0

Also, question: can you place multiple project cubes on the same project? If so, imagine two cubes on capitalism to turn actions into silvers.
No, and also I'm not sure what the second part means.
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Simon Jester

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2018, 09:39:30 am »
0

Cathedral/sewers... At the cost of your first two turns, you could gain the ability to trash two cards at the start of your turn.

Also, question: can you place multiple project cubes on the same project? If so, imagine two cubes on capitalism to turn actions into silvers.

Who will be the first to lock themselves out of the game due to Cathedral? Did it happen to you, playtesters?

No, you can only put one cube on each project and not unbuy them so to speak.

But I don't get Capitalism (ugh, that's weird to say as a libertarian..). My impression was that you only get the +coins that it is stated on the action cards,not the play effect but many comments seem to believe that you will get them. The rulebook says: 

Quote
Any time you play an Action - Treasure card, it is both an Action and a Treasure, regardless of which phase it is. Getting +1 Action in your Buy phase does not let you play other Action cards then. Capitalism works on your turn, but affects cards everywhere; for example if you have Capitalism and play Bandit, you could trash another player's Improve, and it is not relevant if that player has Capitalism or not.

which is ambiguous to me. Treasures don't need actions to be played, why would +actions affect anything?

k1511asd

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2018, 09:49:05 am »
0

What does patron do when revealed by Black Market? Does the player who play BM get the coffers?
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2018, 09:50:05 am »
0

What does patron do when revealed by Black Market? Does the player who play BM get the coffers?

Yes.
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RandomGuy804

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2018, 09:52:35 am »
0

Reread the section about Capitalism, and now it makes sense.  (I was confused before I read it)

Thank you for the clarification.  At first I thought you could place both cubes on the same Project if you wanted.  With that in mind, I think games would be interesting if players only had one Project Cube to use, forcing you to choose between two potential projects.

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Squidd

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2018, 09:52:59 am »
+4

Treasures don't need actions to be played, why would +actions affect anything?
Market will become a treasure card, but Smithy won't. Playing Market in my buy phase will give me +1 Action, but that still won't let me play Smithy. The +Action will just (most of the time) be meaningless. That's what the rulebook is trying to clarify.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2018, 09:54:35 am »
0

Technically both Lantern and Enchantress cause me to do something else than following the play instructions on a card. Do I get to choose the order, and does it make a difference?

I think Lantern effectively modifies a "how many cards to reveal" property unique to Border Guard (whose default value is 2), and Border Guard's on-play instructions use that property. Where Enchantress says don't even follow the on-play instructions, so it doesn't matter what the value of that property is.
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faust

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2018, 10:04:25 am »
+2

Technically both Lantern and Enchantress cause me to do something else than following the play instructions on a card. Do I get to choose the order, and does it make a difference?

I think Lantern effectively modifies a "how many cards to reveal" property unique to Border Guard (whose default value is 2), and Border Guard's on-play instructions use that property. Where Enchantress says don't even follow the on-play instructions, so it doesn't matter what the value of that property is.
I guess so, but to me it would have been cleaner if the Border Guard text had just by itself referenced Lantern - so: "reveal 2 plus 1 if you have Lantern". (which would have left Lantern as a textless Artefact, funnily enough).
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RandomGuy804

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2018, 10:13:23 am »
0

Technically both Lantern and Enchantress cause me to do something else than following the play instructions on a card. Do I get to choose the order, and does it make a difference?

I think Lantern effectively modifies a "how many cards to reveal" property unique to Border Guard (whose default value is 2), and Border Guard's on-play instructions use that property. Where Enchantress says don't even follow the on-play instructions, so it doesn't matter what the value of that property is.

You're correct. 

Looking at the sets of 10, Donald really went all-out with the names for the sets.  My personal favorites are:

"Overture" and "Prelude" (Both being musical terms for an introductory theme that encompasses an entire theme)
"Capture the Flag" (Appropriate name for a flag which constantly moves from person to person.)
"Memento Mori" (Remember death indeed.)
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2018, 10:15:36 am »
+4

The biggest surprise for me is Cathedral.

I'm so pleased. Been waiting so long for that name to show up and was heartbroken when the only card to beat chapel in trashing-crazyness was named Donate. Now everything is good with the world again.

When it comes to names I'm a bit annoyed with Piazza, I associate the name with discard for coffers or at least something with +buy. This feels more like a Herald/throne room thing. Ah, well, that is details. At least it's probably not at risk at be confused with Plaza being a sideway card.

I can't not read Piazza as pizza.
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RandomGuy804

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2018, 10:18:36 am »
+1

I also find "Hideout" to be an interesting card; it's a pseudo-village that penalizes victory card trashing.  What this means is that early game it's not that useful (unless you want to trash Coppers or received Curses), or... Wait, you can use Trader to trash Estates and turn them into Silvers.
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2018, 10:20:52 am »
+4

Some of the Teaser cards: Patron has "reveal" in quotations, Scepter, Capitalism, and Inovation let you play Actions in your Buy phase, Fleet gives players extra turns, and you can't turn off Cathedral.
I'm kind of dissapointed that Border Guard uses both Lantern and Horn, meaning that there are only four kingdom cards that use Artifacts. I hope he uses them again in another expansion.
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faust

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2018, 10:21:49 am »
+1

I also find "Hideout" to be an interesting card; it's a pseudo-village that penalizes victory card trashing.  What this means is that early game it's not that useful.
It's still useful, it just means that it will take an extra play to trash Estates (first play get a Curse, second play trash the Curse). It's an interesting question when it will be better to trash the Estates over Coppers.
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2018, 10:26:06 am »
+1

If Patron was Rats, then Rats could reveal it.

LastFootnote

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2018, 10:35:42 am »
+1

Some of the Teaser cards: Patron has "reveal" in quotations, Scepter, Capitalism, and Inovation let you play Actions in your Buy phase, Fleet gives players extra turns, and you can't turn off Cathedral.
I'm kind of dissapointed that Border Guard uses both Lantern and Horn, meaning that there are only four kingdom cards that use Artifacts. I hope he uses them again in another expansion.

Don't count on it. He's already gone on record saying that he'd remove them from Renaissance if he had to do it all over.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2018, 10:45:17 am »
+1

All cards/artifacts/projects have been added to auto-link. Wiki people, get them added!
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GendoIkari

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2018, 10:49:17 am »
+3

Patron gets added to the list of cards that clearly only exist to stick it to people like me who have responded to fan cards by saying "it's not a good idea to have a reaction that reacts to being revealed".
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2018, 10:55:17 am »
0

Some of the Teaser cards: Patron has "reveal" in quotations, Scepter, Capitalism, and Inovation let you play Actions in your Buy phase, Fleet gives players extra turns, and you can't turn off Cathedral.
I'm kind of dissapointed that Border Guard uses both Lantern and Horn, meaning that there are only four kingdom cards that use Artifacts. I hope he uses them again in another expansion.

Don't count on it. He's already gone on record saying that he'd remove them from Renaissance if he had to do it all over.
I guess the following kingdom will have to suffice:

Border Guard
Flag Bearer
Swashbuckler
Treasurer
Exorcist
Fool
Vampire
Tournament
Young Witch
Peasant
Page (Bane)
Aqueduct
Tax
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GendoIkari

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2018, 11:01:18 am »
0

Surprised that Capitalism can cost only ; when compared to Lost Arts at . Lost Arts can work on any action, but only on 1 action. Capitalism works on a limited set of actions, but works on all of them at once. Plus has the additional advantage of not being able to be drawn dead (not that that's usually an issue in Lost Arts games).

Sure Capitalism doesn't let you turn Smithies into double-labs. But it does let you play multiple Bridges, Goons, or Mountebanks.
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2018, 11:11:03 am »
0

Surprised that Capitalism can cost only ; when compared to Lost Arts at . Lost Arts can work on any action, but only on 1 action. Capitalism works on a limited set of actions, but works on all of them at once. Plus has the additional advantage of not being able to be drawn dead (not that that's usually an issue in Lost Arts games).

Sure Capitalism doesn't let you turn Smithies into double-labs. But it does let you play multiple Bridges, Goons, or Mountebanks.
Lost Arts is strongest on Smithy variants, so I can see why it might cost more. I the Lost Arts token is put on drawers maybe 60% of the time, and then 25% on other terminals and 15% on cantrips in order to play multiple different terminals. (would be interesting to get some actual statistics on this)
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2018, 11:16:44 am »
+5

Some of the Teaser cards: Patron has "reveal" in quotations, Scepter, Capitalism, and Inovation let you play Actions in your Buy phase, Fleet gives players extra turns, and you can't turn off Cathedral.
I'm kind of dissapointed that Border Guard uses both Lantern and Horn, meaning that there are only four kingdom cards that use Artifacts. I hope he uses them again in another expansion.

Don't count on it. He's already gone on record saying that he'd remove them from Renaissance if he had to do it all over.

Where was this? It seems odd to already have such strong regrets about a set that is just hitting shelves and that essentially no one has played with yet.
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trivialknot

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2018, 11:23:25 am »
+1

It appears that a subtheme is "effects that interact with categories that we never really thought about before".  Patron reacting to being revealed. Capitalism reacting to actions with +$. Sewers and Priest reacting to trashing, including self-trashing.  Swashbuckler reacting to things that put stuff in the discard.  Seer reacting to $2-$4-costs.  And of course, there's the whole class of actions that are useful to play during the Buy phase.

Another subtheme is on-gain effects.  I mean, those are in every set, but there are especially a lot of them here.  I think it's because +Coffers and +Villagers are very interesting when they're on-gain.
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2018, 11:28:21 am »
+2

patron+ hunting party/library is kind of good?
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2018, 11:36:55 am »
+3

Trashing seems particularly strong in this set, with three trashers being so strong that you worry about running out of fuel (Recruiter, Hideout, Cathedral), and several other decent trashers besides (Priest, Treasurer, Sewers, Research, I wouldn't really count Ducat or Improve).
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2018, 11:42:07 am »
+1

Patron + Scout looks like a great combo.
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2018, 12:06:21 pm »
0

patron+ hunting party/library is kind of good?
Library doesn't work.
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2018, 12:20:15 pm »
+1

A few questions about Capitalism:

Given, I own Capitalism and play a Merchant Ship in my action phase, then I buy a Mint, I still get the +$2 in the next turn, right?

Can play a Pawn as +1 Card +1 Buy and it still counts as Treasure card?

Assuming I inherited a Farmer's Market (which technically has +$1 in its text), I play a Mine and trash a Copper. I assume, that I cannot gain an Estate, because the Estate is not mine, similar to an inherited Crown. Is that correct?

How can we fix Capitalism's interaction with Hero, Goons and Great Market?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2018, 12:24:12 pm »
+3

A few questions about Capitalism:

Given, I own Capitalism and play a Merchant Ship in my action phase, then I buy a Mint, I still get the +$2 in the next turn, right?


Yes; this is the same as playing a Procession on a Duration card. Duration cards never need to still be in play on the next turn to do their thing.

Quote
Can play a Pawn as +1 Card +1 Buy and it still counts as Treasure card?

Yes; because it simply IS a Treasure card; it doesn't become one when you play it. It would have to be a Treasure card before the game "knows" what choice you will make. Same with Pirate Ship.

Quote
Assuming I inherited a Farmer's Market (which technically has +$1 in its text), I play a Mine and trash a Copper. I assum, that I cannot gain an Estate, because the Estate is not mine, similar to an inherited Crown. Is that correct?
Correct. This is the same as trying to gain an Estate with University. You can't do it, because Estates in the supply are not actions.

Quote
How can we fix Capitalism's interaction with Hero, Goons and Great Market?

What do you mean "fix"?
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2018, 12:39:18 pm »
+1

Thank you a lot.

What do you mean "fix"?

I mean, it is very abusable. Hero can gain Grand Markets and Goons for you. Grand Markets give you + Buys and you can play Goons without consuming any Actions. An amazingly oveerpowered combo.

Some cards like Harvest or Tormentor already get a huge boost, but the boost for Hero and Goons is just incredibly sick.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 12:40:22 pm by King Leon »
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2018, 12:44:08 pm »
+2

I mean, it is very abusable. Hero can gain Grand Markets and Goons for you. Grand Markets give you + Buys and you can play Goons without consuming any Actions. An amazingly oveerpowered combo.

Some cards like Harvest or Tormentor already get a huge boost, but the boost for Hero and Goons is just incredibly sick.

Eh, I'm not seeing the issue here.  You usually don't get to play a Hero until your 4th shuffle.  By that point, you should easily be able to afford a Goons or a Grand Market even without the Hero.
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2018, 12:53:21 pm »
+2

Just for seeking clarity, it looks like Patron doesn't require the word "reveal" with those 6 letters only, but rather it must use the reveal game mechanic. Is this true? Meaning cards that cause revealing to happen with other parts of speech like "reveals" (e.g. Scrying Pool) or "revealing" (e.g. Shepherd), etc. still work?
This would mean if I reveal for Villan because I can't discard due to Villan's condition (say with cost reduction so that Patron costs less than $2), I get +1 Coffers for each Patron in my hand, despite the wording being "(or reveals they can't)".

If it is just r-e-v-e-a-l that counts, then this is going to be a nightmare for translated versions.
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2018, 01:06:38 pm »
0

Border Guard is pretty disappointing. I expected something interesting with the two remaining Artifacts and instead we got a weak sifter.
This will probably be revealed in the Secret History but I find it interesting that no straightforward Villagers Village landed in the set. My guess is that it was too strong at $4 and too weak at $5.
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2018, 01:11:50 pm »
0

Just for seeking clarity, it looks like Patron doesn't require the word "reveal" with those 6 letters only, but rather it must use the reveal game mechanic. Is this true? Meaning cards that cause revealing to happen with other parts of speech like "reveals" (e.g. Scrying Pool) or "revealing" (e.g. Shepherd), etc. still work?
This would mean if I reveal for Villan because I can't discard due to Villan's condition (say with cost reduction so that Patron costs less than $2), I get +1 Coffers for each Patron in my hand, despite the wording being "(or reveals they can't)".

If it is just r-e-v-e-a-l that counts, then this is going to be a nightmare for translated versions.

I think we can take "word" as meaning 'lexical item' rather than 'word form'.

Good thing "revelation" doesn't appear on a card though, then we'd be in for a debate.
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2018, 01:13:51 pm »
+3

Border Guard is pretty disappointing. I expected something interesting with the two remaining Artifacts and instead we got a weak sifter.
This will probably be revealed in the Secret History but I find it interesting that no straightforward Villagers Village landed in the set. My guess is that it was too strong at $4 and too weak at $5.

Secret History will definitely have a lot to say about the Artifacts that made/didn't make it.  There were a number of interesting Artifacts that didn't make it for reasons other than not being interesting enough.  But I'll leave the rest of the history to Donald X.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 07:47:11 pm by ben_king »
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2018, 02:49:26 pm »
+2

I mean, it is very abusable. Hero can gain Grand Markets and Goons for you. Grand Markets give you + Buys and you can play Goons without consuming any Actions. An amazingly oveerpowered combo.

Hero can already gain Platinums and Fortunes, which are more difficult to acquire than GM or Goons under normal circumstances, and Grand Market itself hardly benefits from Capitalism since it's non-terminal anyway.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 12:05:20 am by Awaclus »
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2018, 03:24:24 pm »
+1

I mean, it is very abusable. Hero can gain Grand Markets and Goons for you. Grand Markets give you + Buys and you can play Goons without consuming any Actions. An amazingly oveerpowered combo.

Hero can already gain Platinums and Fortunes, which are more difficult to acquire than GM or Goons under normal circumstances, and Grand Market itself hardly benefits from Capital since it's non-terminal anyway.

With Grand Market especially; you would rather play it in the action phase the majority of the time anyway; because if you play in the buy phase, you won't be able to play any actions it draws (unless those actions are also now treasures).
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2018, 04:47:28 pm »
+1

All cards/artifacts/projects have been added to auto-link. Wiki people, get them added!

Thanks, mysterious Wiki people! All Renaissance links seem to be working fine.
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #48 on: November 05, 2018, 05:28:01 pm »
0

Old Witch looks younger than the regular witch.
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2018, 05:51:35 pm »
+2

I mean, it is very abusable. Hero can gain Grand Markets and Goons for you. Grand Markets give you + Buys and you can play Goons without consuming any Actions. An amazingly oveerpowered combo.

Some cards like Harvest or Tormentor already get a huge boost, but the boost for Hero and Goons is just incredibly sick.

Eh, I'm not seeing the issue here.  You usually don't get to play a Hero until your 4th shuffle.  By that point, you should easily be able to afford a Goons or a Grand Market even without the Hero.

What is wrong with overamazingly overpowered combos as long as everyone have access to them and they involve more than one card? There are many, myself included, that just love playing degenerate games as with KC or Wharf-engines for example. Not every game, for sure, but they are absolutely delightful when they show up. Won't mind if Capitalism turn out to be as ridiculous as we expect right now. It will never be Sauvanto anyway.

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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2018, 06:28:58 pm »
+2

The biggest surprise for me is Cathedral.

I'm so pleased. Been waiting so long for that name to show up and was heartbroken when the only card to beat chapel in trashing-crazyness was named Donate. Now everything is good with the world again.

Is Cathedral that strong? Maybe I'm wrong but it seems super situational to me. Wouldn't you go for literally any other trashing ahead of committing to a 4-card hand for the rest of the game?
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2018, 09:06:56 pm »
+4

  With that in mind, I think games would be interesting if players only had one Project Cube to use, forcing you to choose between two potential projects.

I feel like this is a good reason to not go with the recommended 2 project limit. Seems like games would be more interesting if you had to choose wisely how to use your 2 project tokens; rather than simply the decision about whether to use them at all.
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2018, 09:55:02 pm »
+2

  With that in mind, I think games would be interesting if players only had one Project Cube to use, forcing you to choose between two potential projects.

I see where you're coming from, but I feel like usually, this would just cause the more powerful projects to overpower the more niche ones. Capitalism, Star Chart, Pageant, and others would often be the obvious winners and in 9 games out of 10 the decision wouldn't be that hard to make. Whereas with 2 project tokens, you can have more interactions and really let them shine. The strategy becomes about when to pick them up rather than which to pick up, which I think makes it actually much more interesting.
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #53 on: November 06, 2018, 12:24:56 am »
+3

Is Cathedral that strong? Maybe I'm wrong but it seems super situational to me. Wouldn't you go for literally any other trashing ahead of committing to a 4-card hand for the rest of the game?

From what experience I got with Cathedral today, it's ridiculously strong. The worst possible case for Silver/Cathedral opening is basically as good as opening Silver/Chapel and having the Chapel hit three Estates and a Copper on turn 3. It gets a little annoying later, but because of inflation, the benefit you've gotten since the very early turns of the game adds up to way more than worth it.
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #54 on: November 06, 2018, 12:00:06 pm »
+3

Some of the Teaser cards: Patron has "reveal" in quotations, Scepter, Capitalism, and Inovation let you play Actions in your Buy phase, Fleet gives players extra turns, and you can't turn off Cathedral.
I'm kind of dissapointed that Border Guard uses both Lantern and Horn, meaning that there are only four kingdom cards that use Artifacts. I hope he uses them again in another expansion.

Don't count on it. He's already gone on record saying that he'd remove them from Renaissance if he had to do it all over.


Where was this? It seems odd to already have such strong regrets about a set that is just hitting shelves and that essentially no one has played with yet.

I messed up, thinking that Donald X. had already said this in public and also for not providing context. It's not that Artifacts are bad. It's that sets are simpler when they have fewer mechanics and good Artifacts are hard to make, such that only four cards ended up using them. So some other mechanic might have been better from that standpoint. Possibly the Secret History will go into Artifact design a little, I don't know. Anyway, sorry for being alarmist. And apologies to Donald X. for speaking for him.

For what it's worth, I'm personally very glad that Renaissance has Artifacts. They might be my favorite mechanic in the set; a cool new type of player interaction.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 12:02:28 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #55 on: November 06, 2018, 01:20:30 pm »
0

From what experience I got with Cathedral today, it's ridiculously strong.
Then again, a significant proportion of kingdoms will include a hand-size attack. I'll be interested to try, but my instinct is that Cathedral wouldn't be a smart move in a Militia kingdom.
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #56 on: November 06, 2018, 01:20:40 pm »
+1


For what it's worth, I'm personally very glad that Renaissance has Artifacts. They might be my favorite mechanic in the set; a cool new type of player interaction.

They really aren't new though, are they? Nocturne had States; and Lost in the Woods especially is just an artifact by a different name.
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #57 on: November 06, 2018, 01:31:06 pm »
0

They really aren't new though, are they? Nocturne had States; and Lost in the Woods especially is just an artifact by a different name.

I guess. Lost in the Woods was mostly just a way to limit how many times you used Fool's main ability, though.
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2018, 04:13:35 pm »
0


For what it's worth, I'm personally very glad that Renaissance has Artifacts. They might be my favorite mechanic in the set; a cool new type of player interaction.

They really aren't new though, are they? Nocturne had States; and Lost in the Woods especially is just an artifact by a different name.

But being «Lost in the Woods» isn’t an artifact. It’s a state that Fool finds himself in. Technically, it works like an Artifact in the game, but doesn’t it have to be an object to be called an Artifact?
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2018, 04:17:45 pm »
+2

But being «Lost in the Woods» isn’t an artifact. It’s a state that Fool finds himself in. Technically, it works like an Artifact in the game, but doesn’t it have to be an object to be called an Artifact?

It needs to have the Artifact type to be called Artifact.
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #60 on: November 06, 2018, 04:23:18 pm »
+4

But being «Lost in the Woods» isn’t an artifact. It’s a state that Fool finds himself in. Technically, it works like an Artifact in the game, but doesn’t it have to be an object to be called an Artifact?

It needs to have the Artifact type to be called Artifact.

Indeed. Lost in the Woods could be an artifact if Donald had wanted; though it's safe to say that at that point it would have likely been given a different name. The point is that there's no functional or rules difference between Lost in the Woods and Key. And having Lost in the Woods be an artifact, rather than a state; would have helped clarify that it works differently than the other states; in that there's only 1 copy which can be taken from other players.
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #61 on: November 06, 2018, 04:31:05 pm »
+1

But being «Lost in the Woods» isn’t an artifact. It’s a state that Fool finds himself in. Technically, it works like an Artifact in the game, but doesn’t it have to be an object to be called an Artifact?

It needs to have the Artifact type to be called Artifact.

In game, sure. I wasn’t talking about that. I was talking about that the state you’re in when you’re lost in the woods couldn’t be seen as an artifact by anyone, even though I agree that it works precisely as an Artifact in the game. As long as the card is called «Lost in the Woods», it couldn’t sensibly have Artifact as a type.
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2018, 04:35:08 pm »
+1

But being «Lost in the Woods» isn’t an artifact. It’s a state that Fool finds himself in. Technically, it works like an Artifact in the game, but doesn’t it have to be an object to be called an Artifact?

It needs to have the Artifact type to be called Artifact.

Indeed. Lost in the Woods could be an artifact if Donald had wanted; though it's safe to say that at that point it would have likely been given a different name. The point is that there's no functional or rules difference between Lost in the Woods and Key. And having Lost in the Woods be an artifact, rather than a state; would have helped clarify that it works differently than the other states; in that there's only 1 copy which can be taken from other players.

Yes, I agree. And it’s only related to one particular kingdom card, just like each one of the Artifacts. I guess DXV hadn’t thought about the card type Artifact when Fool was made. If he had, I agree it would be renamed. It would probably also be moved to Renaissance and called an Artifact, so as not to include another card type in Nocturne. There are enough card types in that set as it is. 😀
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #63 on: November 07, 2018, 06:58:40 am »
0

I also just uploaded it to BoardGameGeek.
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #64 on: November 07, 2018, 07:44:37 am »
0

It would probably also be moved to Renaissance and called an Artifact, so as not to include another card type in Nocturne.
You couldn't move Fool out of Nocturne while it continued to use Boons.

By my understanding, Fool received quite a lot of work to try and make it playable and what would really happen if it was revisited was that it would get canned entirely.
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #65 on: November 07, 2018, 08:01:00 am »
+1

You couldn't move Fool out of Nocturne while it continued to use Boons.

By my understanding, Fool received quite a lot of work to try and make it playable and what would really happen if it was revisited was that it would get canned entirely.
If there were plenty of time I might keep messing with it, because some people really enjoyed getting 3 boons, and with plenty of time I'd get to see if the good version was still too slow. Probably I would try one-shots more. That's totally "playtesters who love Fool will hate this" but seems the most promising direction for actually doing a "get 3 boons" card that I personally could live with. I certainly wouldn't do Lost in the Woods. And if I got to redo Nocturne, I wouldn't do States either - they're a complication on top of a complication. Though we did enjoy them when playtesting.
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #66 on: November 07, 2018, 08:01:40 am »
0

Patron gets added to the list of cards that clearly only exist to stick it to people like me who have responded to fan cards by saying "it's not a good idea to have a reaction that reacts to being revealed".

Why was this not considered to be a good idea?
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #67 on: November 07, 2018, 08:54:39 am »
0

Anyone know why all the pictures on the wiki are fuzzy?
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Re: Renaissance rulebook is up
« Reply #68 on: November 07, 2018, 09:01:36 am »
+1

Anyone know why all the pictures on the wiki are fuzzy?

Because they're from fuzzy pictures from the rulebook pdf posted online.  No one (except playtesters) has a physical copy yet.
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