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Author Topic: Heir new design help  (Read 216 times)

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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Heir new design help
« on: October 24, 2018, 10:15:30 pm »
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Hey everyone, I had this card idea but it's pretty wacky so I thought I'd ask for some help to maybe simplify it a bit. I'm pretty sure I have this wording pretty messed up. Here it is:

(Also sorry Kudasai but I stole your the artwork you used  :P). Here's how the card is supposed to play out:
So we have this game between Aaron, Ben and Carson (players A, B, and C).
Aaron plays a Labaratory, +2 Cards +1 Action. Then an Heir, +1 Card +1 Action and puts the Lab back on his deck. He plays another two Heirs later during his turn, which only give him +1 Card and +1 Action. At the end of his turn he only discards the first Heir played.
Ben plays a Fortress, +2 Cards +1 Action. Then an Heir, +1 Card +1 Action and puts the Fortress back on his deck. He plays another three Heirs later during his turn, which only give him +1 Card and +1 Action. At the end of his turn he only discards the first Heir played.
Carson plays an , +2 Cards +1 Action. Then an Heir, +1 Card +1 Action and puts the Lab back on his deck. He plays another Heir later during his turn, which only gives him +1 Card and +1 Action. At the end of his turn he only discards the first Heir played.
At the start of Aaron's next turn he gets +2 Coffers because he had more Heirs in play than Carson, and had two Heirs in play. He plays two more Heirs that turn, discarding one at the end of his turn.
At the start of Ben's next turn he gets +6 Coffers because he has more Heirs in play than both Carson and Aaron and has three Heirs in play. Then he plays one Heir during his turn, discarding it at the end.
Carson gets +1 Coffers, since he has more Heirs in play than Ben, and has one Heir.

That was really long; I hope I got it right and was clear.

So any comments, wording help, simplicity help, would be appreciated. I would've put this in with the rest of my cards, but I would especially like some help/comments on this one.
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popsofctown

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Re: Heir new design help
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2018, 03:34:46 am »
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Here's my crack at rewording it.  It's something.

"+1 Card, +1 Action
If this is the first Duration card you played this turn, put a non-Duration card you have in play on top of your deck.  Otherwise, at the start of your next turn, each other player with fewer Duration cards in play than you has you take a Coffers."

You get a lot of smoothness if you're willing to make it count orange cards instead of just Heirs.  It removes the Procession tracking issue too.  On 90+% of boards you'll get the same game play you would have gotten before, there's not that many durations, and some of them are Merchant Ships.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 03:36:13 am by popsofctown »
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Heir new design help
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2018, 07:48:25 am »
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Alright, here's the second version:

Thanks
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Heir new design help
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2018, 09:56:23 am »
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I'm going to poke my head in and try not to sound too harsh or something, but, you want to shy away from any design that has a variable cost based on the number of players.

For instance, in 1v1 Heir only can get +1 Coffers. But in a 6-player game, it could give you 5!
Cantrip 5 Coffers is, really good at $4. Cantrip 1 Coffer, less so.

The idea is a good, original one, but I'd like to see it play consistently (or have a counterbalance to keep it at the roughly the same powerlevel) with different numbers of players.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Heir new design help
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2018, 11:40:52 am »
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I'm going to poke my head in and try not to sound too harsh or something, but, you want to shy away from any design that has a variable cost based on the number of players.

For instance, in 1v1 Heir only can get +1 Coffers. But in a 6-player game, it could give you 5!
Cantrip 5 Coffers is, really good at $4. Cantrip 1 Coffer, less so.

The idea is a good, original one, but I'd like to see it play consistently (or have a counterbalance to keep it at the roughly the same powerlevel) with different numbers of players.
I'll have to think about that. Very true that it will play very differently with different numbers of players.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Heir new design help
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2018, 12:18:53 pm »
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You could stabilize the result by saying "Otherwise, at the start of your next turn, +2 Coffers if any player has less Durations in play that you do."
..Changing the number of Coffers to fit what you feel is a good balance at your cost.

Another comment, are you aware/planning that the card will be discarded on the same turn it is played if it's the first Heir you play? It will have no further effects if it doesn't invoke its Otherwise clause, and therefore gets cleaned up right away. I think this is fine (even beneficial to the design!) But wanted to point it out.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Heir new design help
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2018, 12:24:26 pm »
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Am I right in thinking that if you Throne an Heir, you can put the Throne Room back on your deck before your second play of Heir fires? That's going to be fun to deal with.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Heir new design help
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2018, 12:28:57 pm »
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Am I right in thinking that if you Throne an Heir, you can put the Throne Room back on your deck before your second play of Heir fires? That's going to be fun to deal with.
Yes, that is the idea.
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Kudasai

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Re: Heir new design help
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2018, 06:46:35 pm »
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Glad to see the art being used by more than just me. It fits the theme of "Heir" quite well.

(1) As for the card, I'd recommend the following:
If you're striving for simplicity, this card seems to be doing two completely different things (top-decking and Coffers gaining) that have little or no impact on each other, so I'd turn this into two different cards. The top-decking an in play card effect is incredibly strong and interesting enough that I think this is all one card needs. The Coffers gaining is interesting, but a few, potential pitfalls should be addressed:
    (A) In no way do I think this can work if the maximum amount of Coffers you gained is tied into the number of players there are. Cards should be relatively stable and play the same no matter how many players. Pirate Ship is an exception, but even then increasing the number of players only increased your chances of hitting a Treasure; it does not gain you more Coin tokens. Imagine if it did though. I could get my Pirate Ship up to +$5 Coin (5 Treasures revealed) on the very first play, and probably +$10 (another 5 Treasures revealed) on the second play. Now I just play Pirate Ship for +$10 and empty the Provinces (or Colonies) in no time. It's so powerful it just makes the game not fun. So I highly recommend making this a fixed amount of Coffers. On a duration, cantrip, +1 Coffers or +2 Coffers is plenty.
    (B) I would try and make the condition on the cards that are being counted for +Coffers as broad as possible. Counting just Heirs would have been problematic because if one player wins the split, they have a huge advantage over the other player. In a 2-player game that would be unlikely given they both have a fair shot at 5 Heirs, but in a 3-player game it gets really tricky. If everyone rushes Heirs, one player may end up with 3 Heirs to everyone everyone elses 4 Heirs simply because of shuffle luck or player order. Of course it's a bit better to include other Duration cards, but I still think this is too small of a pool of cards. Durations are uncommon enough that it might just end up being the Heir pile that is counted. So something broader like: (1) Cards with 2 or more types, (2) a certain cost range, or (3) comparing cards you've played this turn to cards others have in play all might be a better fit.

Even with these changes, a cheap, cantrip, with little side effects might lead to games where everyone rushes them, or no one touches them. Only playtesting can answer that though.

Hopefully this has all come across as more supportive then critical. It's an interesting idea, but cards like these can be very tricky to get right. I wish you luck and if you need any clarification on what I've said, I'll try and explain more clearly at another time when I'm not rushed. :)

« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 06:50:09 pm by Kudasai »
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Heir new design help
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2018, 08:31:01 pm »
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Thanks everyone for the help. I think I'm just gonna tuck this card away, probably reuse both parts as separate cards.
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Kudasai

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Re: Heir new design help
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2018, 08:48:50 pm »
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Thanks everyone for the help. I think I'm just gonna tuck this card away, probably reuse both parts as separate cards.

I think the top decking from play card would be really fun. Sort of like a Scheme/Throne Room hybrid.
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crlundy

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Re: Heir new design help
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2018, 01:24:41 am »
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I agree with the multiplayer issues, but I like the Coffers part of the card! (The topdecking has too many tracking issues for my taste.) Counting other players' cards in play is unique. My only feedback is that it should say "fewer" instead of "less". :)
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