Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Wine Merchant + Debt  (Read 802 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4798
  • Respect: +5121
    • View Profile
Wine Merchant + Debt
« on: October 23, 2018, 04:47:27 am »
+4

Pretty sure I know this answer, but I suppose paying back debt doesn't work during the "end" of your buy phase? Otherwise you could first discard Wine Merchant and then pay back debt.

crj

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 994
  • Respect: +1079
    • View Profile
Re: Wine Merchant + Debt
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2018, 08:34:45 am »
0

Interesting! Feels like you shouldn't be able to, but I'm struggling to see it specifically ruled out.

If the answer does turn out to be no, Capital would be a workaround, of course...
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7011
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +9707
    • View Profile
Re: Wine Merchant + Debt
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2018, 10:36:19 am »
+2

You're paying back debt during your Buy phase (other than with Capital's ability, of course), and Wine Merchant checks at the end of your Buy phase. Seems like a pretty open-and-shut case. You could choose not to pay back some Debt in order to have coins left to discard your Wine Merchants of course, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.
Logged

crj

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 994
  • Respect: +1079
    • View Profile
Re: Wine Merchant + Debt
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2018, 11:06:15 am »
+3

Seems like a pretty open-and-shut case.
  • Does a thing that happens "at the end of your Buy phase" occur during your Buy phase?
  • Does a thing that happens "at the start of your turn" happen during your turn?
  • Does Distant Lands being worth 4VP "at the end of the game" happen during the game?
The answer to (2) is definitively "yes". I'd argue the answer to (3) is also "yes", because if it happens after the game it's too late and a winner has already been determined. You're saying the answer to (1) is "no", which does feel right, but is hardly self-evident!
Logged

chipperMDW

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 259
  • Respect: +558
    • View Profile
Re: Wine Merchant + Debt
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2018, 11:31:35 am »
+4

I think it's not a matter of whether or not you're in the buy phase at that time (I'd say you definitely are), but of what the rules mean when they say "A player removes Debt tokens in the player's Buy phase... this is done after playing Treasures, but can be done both before and after buying cards." If you interpret that to mean you may pay off debt at any time you would otherwise be allowed to buy a card (or event/project), then by the time Wine Merchant triggered, you'd be past the point where you could buy cards, so you'd also be past the point where you could pay off debt. If you interpret it to mean that you can do it at any time during the buy phase (similar to the apparent rule for Villagers) after you've played treasures, then you'd still be in that window after Wine Merchant triggered.

I assume the former was intended. (But I also would have assumed you would be allowed to spend Villagers only at a time you could play an action card, so what do I know?)

Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7377
  • Respect: +8199
    • View Profile
Re: Wine Merchant + Debt
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2018, 12:14:22 pm »
+1

I think it's not a matter of whether or not you're in the buy phase at that time (I'd say you definitely are), but of what the rules mean when they say "A player removes Debt tokens in the player's Buy phase... this is done after playing Treasures, but can be done both before and after buying cards." If you interpret that to mean you may pay off debt at any time you would otherwise be allowed to buy a card (or event/project), then by the time Wine Merchant triggered, you'd be past the point where you could buy cards, so you'd also be past the point where you could pay off debt. If you interpret it to mean that you can do it at any time during the buy phase (similar to the apparent rule for Villagers) after you've played treasures, then you'd still be in that window after Wine Merchant triggered.

I assume the former was intended. (But I also would have assumed you would be allowed to spend Villagers only at a time you could play an action card, so what do I know?)

Excellent point... if you could theoretically pay of debt after you get Wine Merchant back, then the exact same argument could be used to say that you can buy a card after you get Wine Merchant back.

The only logical conclusion is that "At the end of your buy phase" means after you are done doing anything you are going to do during the buy phase".
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

crj

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 994
  • Respect: +1079
    • View Profile
Re: Wine Merchant + Debt
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2018, 12:53:20 pm »
+1

if you could theoretically pay of debt after you get Wine Merchant back, then the exact same argument could be used to say that you can buy a card after you get Wine Merchant back.
Well, what it actually says about Debt in the rules is "can be done both before and after buying cards". So: is there a special time between finishing buying cards and starting the end of the Buy phase in which all you can do is pay off Debt, or is there a time at the end of your Buy phase during which you can pay off Debt and/or discard Wine Merchants in an order you choose?

I still maintain that either interpretation was reasonable, before LastFootnote gave a ruling that is, naturally, definitive unless contradicted by Donald X. (-8
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7377
  • Respect: +8199
    • View Profile
Re: Wine Merchant + Debt
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2018, 01:27:59 pm »
+2

Well, what it actually says about Debt in the rules is "can be done both before and after buying cards". So: is there a special time between finishing buying cards and starting the end of the Buy phase in which all you can do is pay off Debt

I think this is correct, except that it's not "a special time". It's the same type of time that you had before, after, and between any card buys. Nothing about the game "knows" if you are done buying cards or not. During this window of time, there are a total of 6 5 things you are allowed to do:

1) Buy a card/event/project (but only if you have buys remaining, and no ).
2) Pay off .
3) Spend a villager.
3) End your buy phase.
4) Play a treasure (but only if you haven't bought a card in this buy phase yet).
5) Spend a coffer (but only if you haven't bought a card in this buy phase yet).

Whether you plan on doing 1) or 3) next has no bearing on your current legal choices. You might be done buying cards, you might not be.

Once you chose to do option 3, end your buy phase, the game moves to "at the end of your buy phase", where you no longer have any options except for special ones such as the one granted by Wine Merchant.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 02:42:38 pm by GendoIkari »
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

chipperMDW

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 259
  • Respect: +558
    • View Profile
Re: Wine Merchant + Debt
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2018, 02:09:40 pm »
0

3) Spend a villager.

(I think you're only allowed to do that one in your action phase.)
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7377
  • Respect: +8199
    • View Profile
Re: Wine Merchant + Debt
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2018, 02:42:03 pm »
+1

3) Spend a villager.

(I think you're only allowed to do that one in your action phase.)

I got mixed up with all that talk about how you could do it at "Any time", but yeah, it's "Any time" in your action phase.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5138
  • Respect: +21067
    • View Profile
Re: Wine Merchant + Debt
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2018, 04:24:03 pm »
+2

Pretty sure I know this answer, but I suppose paying back debt doesn't work during the "end" of your buy phase? Otherwise you could first discard Wine Merchant and then pay back debt.
"The end of your Buy phase" is poorly defined, and not a great thing to use (note how Magic ended up with an End step to deal with this stuff, and now has tons of cards that say "at the beginning of your end step," which is also not pretty). But that's what the card says and it seems clear what it means: it's some part of the Buy phase after the other stuff. You can't pay off debt then.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7377
  • Respect: +8199
    • View Profile
Re: Wine Merchant + Debt
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2018, 04:31:05 pm »
+1

Pretty sure I know this answer, but I suppose paying back debt doesn't work during the "end" of your buy phase? Otherwise you could first discard Wine Merchant and then pay back debt.
"The end of your Buy phase" is poorly defined, and not a great thing to use (note how Magic ended up with an End step to deal with this stuff, and now has tons of cards that say "at the beginning of your end step," which is also not pretty). But that's what the card says and it seems clear what it means: it's some part of the Buy phase after the other stuff. You can't pay off debt then.

You should just give Wine Merchant substance; that should fix the issue.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Holunder9

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 820
  • Respect: +364
    • View Profile
Re: Wine Merchant + Debt
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2018, 04:56:11 pm »
0

I guess "at the start of Clean-up" could work but end of Buy phase makes more sense as you don't associate Clean-up with left-over Coins.
Logged

chipperMDW

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 259
  • Respect: +558
    • View Profile
Re: Wine Merchant + Debt
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2018, 09:25:05 pm »
0

I guess "at the start of Clean-up" could work but end of Buy phase makes more sense as you don't associate Clean-up with left-over Coins.

Diadem looks around sheepishly.
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.135 seconds with 21 queries.