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theory

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Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« on: October 18, 2018, 10:18:45 am »

I received the following email from a participant in the Finnish mafia championship.  I am withholding judgment until I get sense from you all as to how you feel about the issue and what, if anything, should be done.

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Hello,

Sorry for the possible inconvenience and thanks in advance. I don't represent the Finnish mafia forum Kylä but I would like to bring into your attention that the f.ds representative Awaclus cheated and intentionally outed from the Finnish Championship game on D2 to manipulate the game in scum teams favor. I participated in the game and I played town. He was assigned to team scum and he had chosen a strategy where he claimed to be town and referenced to game logs in this forum where had actually played town. This ruse is totally viable scum strategy in my opinion, but it didn't work and generally other players were suspicious about his alignment during his stay in the game. The game had 13 players and 3 of them were scum. Out of three scum players we were able to lynch one on d1. D2 masons claimed themselves which gave us two confirmed players on town side.

At this point Awaclus' disrespectful attitude and arrogant communication had cause a lot of uncivil behavior towards him, myself included. This is of course totally viable strategy as scum but not really respectful and doesn't represent good sportsmanship. I snapped at him and several other players also descended to his level and some players received warnings due their behavior. At the same time Awaclus chose to out from the game and admins started looking for a replacement. At this point many players were worried if Awaclus had dropped out from the game due other players being rude to him. I take responsibility for my own behavior because Awaclus was able to get under my skin. I genuinely felt bad about me losing my composure and I apologized during the game and personally to Awa after the game.

At the end of D2 we were able to lynch second scum from the game, only leaving the scum in Awaclus' slot. At the start of D3, the roleblocker claimed themself and told who they had targeted during N2. Because the night killed player wasn't one of the two confirmed masons, there was only one scum left in the game and we knew roleblocker is alive, it was a hard confirm for roleblocker and the player they had targeted. This gave us four (masons, roleblocker, roleblocker's target 1) confirmed players out of 9 alive players and only one scum to be searched for. At this point roleblocker said they will announce which player they will target N3 so we will have one more confirmed player at D4 if someone is killed next night. If roleblocker would've been night killed on N4 we'd still have 4 confirmed players out of 7. At this point I'm sure you realise that it was mathematically impossible for scum to win the game so Awaclus' replacement player conceded.

After the victory celebrations, scumchat was posted to the topic and from there we discovered that Awaclus made a 100% conscious decision to out from the game so he could manipulate in scum's favor. His team mates were also aware of his reasons to out from the game. In the post-game discussion he has again confirmed this choice and game mods have confirmed to Awaclus this behavior is not acceptable and he would've been penalized with a temporary participation ban if this came to game mods attention during the game. If scum team would've won because of Awaclus manipulated the game by outing, I'm sure no player would've acknowledged the win.

Now Awaclus has defended his decision to out from the game and said it's totally acceptable to intentionally collect a participation ban if it would help his team win the game. As he was just a guest player in Kylä, this doesn't bother him at all since he probably wouldn't have participated in a another game in the future. I want to press that this was done as an official ambassador of f.ds in a Championship Game.

Your mafia rules and civility pledge clearly state in two different sections that players should not officially out from the game for manipulation reasons.

"Please do not use this (outing) as a manipulation technique."

"-- Every game requires participation. Do not sign up for games that you are unwilling to play. /Outing has become increasingly problematic lately. It's an action that should be highly, highly frowned upon--an exception, rather than something that happens at least twice in every game. Finding replacements is tough on the mods, the other players, and the replacements themselves."

At the Kylä Forum, Awaclus is saying that these rules only prohibit officially outing from the game. I would like to have your opinion on this.

And this subsequent email:

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Hello, Kylä's adminstrator Jitachi here.

First of all, I'm terribly sorry about the ruckus in finnish championship have spread in your forum too due message of Keturin. It is true Awaclus caused a lot of trouble in the championship with his playstyle and been juggling in grey area of rules, but honestly speaking I was wishing that would be kept inside our own forum without spreading further. However, due Awaclus have provoked Keturin, Keturin sent the messages and even asked testimony about game event from me I felt like I need to tell my own side. Like Awaclus said, he didn't send his /out request directly to me, but instead to GM of the game, Cameron: the reason I'm aware of content of the dropout message is she forwarded it to me for other reason. His full reason in pm to drop out was Awaclus lacked motivation to play in game; the game have caused sleeping problems and it was taking a lot of more time than he have wanted. In addition first day was so hard he felt like he was unable to give his best performance in game. It is true in Kylä you have right to give in any time you want, no matter the reason but because that was championship game that also meant his action made him disqualified because he didn't play game until the end. Ergo, in that regard he have been already punished about his actions because he is unable to win championship or give out victory points to other players which is the main idea of whole championship. Was his trick bit dirty? Definitely. But was it forbidden? Technically no, because no one in whole adminstration didn't realize the possibility of someone sacrificing his own chances to win championship to try help his team to win one game of mafia in hopeless setup which was basically unfair for bad guys with Masoner, roleblocker and town cop. Only thing I'm mad at him in role of game mod was not being truthful about reason to drop. Strategic reason is frowned and bit cheap, but because I had no idea he was planning it, I had no chances to discuss about it with him. I also hope Keturin and Awaclus stop discussing it outside official channels: what happened in Kylä doesn't involve in my opinion Dominion Strategy forums at all and Keturin's continued chase of Awaclus back in his own home forum is plainly unjustified.

Kind regards,
Johanna T./Jitachi
Mafia game forum Kylä
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Awaclus

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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2018, 11:55:48 am »

I'm pretty sure that e-mail is from another player, not from the organizer, and he has somewhat misrepresented the situation there.

1) I did not cheat in the game, I followed all of the rules in the game and on their forum in general.

2) It is true that I did /out from the game on purpose, since it looked like that could give our team a significantly better chance of winning. This does not appear to be against any rules on their site, although they discourage people from /outing in general, with no mention as to what reasons for /outing are allowed and what aren't. My scumbuddy was an admin on the site, and I discussed the plan with him in the scum daychat before doing it, and although he did mention that it's not "good sportsmanship", he agreed that it would be beneficial for our team and did not attempt to stop me.

3) It is true that a mod of the game posted after the game to point out that my behavior was not acceptable. I could not have been reasonably expected to know that during the game, since it was not in the rules, and obviously if it had been in the rules, or the mods (who, to be fair, did not have access to the scum daychat) or my scumbuddy had informed me that quitting for strategic reasons is not acceptable on the forum, I would not have done it. In my message to the mods where I requested to /out, I did not claim to have any other motive for /outing besides the fact that I wasn't playing well enough. Apparently the mods assumed that it had something to do with people criticizing my playstyle, and subsequently sent out warnings to at least the person I believe this e-mail is from, but they made that assumption completely on their own and I most certainly did not try to mislead them into doing that.

4) It is not true that I would have been penalized with a temporary participation ban. In fact, I have not been penalized with a temporary participation ban as far as I can tell.

5) "Please do not use this (outing) as a manipulation technique" is obviously not a direct quote from any of our rules. He is referring to rule 3.9, and I have always understood the "this" in that rule to specifically refer to /outing in the main game thread, because that is what the entire rule is talking about. Whether or not we should reword that rule to make its intent more clear is up for debate.
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keturin

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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2018, 12:20:32 pm »


4) It is not true that I would have been penalized with a temporary participation ban. In fact, I have not been penalized with a temporary participation ban as far as I can tell.


Jitachi clearly stated that if mods would've been aware at the time that you're outing intentionally, you would've been most likely penalized. He clearly stated that if admins are suspecting that a player is trying to /out to gain favor, they will be penalized. I really wrinkles my brain how you can think, that actions that are punishable with penalties would've be acceptable player actions. 
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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2018, 12:38:56 pm »

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I want to press that this was done as an official ambassador of f.ds in a Championship Game.

#notmyambassador

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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2018, 12:45:56 pm »


4) It is not true that I would have been penalized with a temporary participation ban. In fact, I have not been penalized with a temporary participation ban as far as I can tell.


Jitachi clearly stated that if mods would've been aware at the time that you're outing intentionally, you would've been most likely penalized. He clearly stated that if admins are suspecting that a player is trying to /out to gain favor, they will be penalized.

It continues to be the case that I have not been penalized with a temporary participation ban or any other penalty as far as I can tell. Based on what Jitachi said, it sounds like they didn't know that I flat out admitted in my /outing request that the reason was that my performance wasn't good enough, since I sent that PM to a different mod.

I really wrinkles my brain how you can think, that actions that are punishable with penalties would've be acceptable player actions.

In general, if there is a clearly defined penalty for an action in the rules and the penalty isn't harsh enough to hurt my alignment more than whatever benefit we get, then it's simply worth it. On f.ds, that never happens because having your entire team disqualified is a possible penalty (specifically to address this), and in this particular case, I was not aware that my actions were punishable with penalties, and I have not been punished with any penalties, so that doesn't really apply.
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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2018, 02:43:38 pm »

So I guess I should say something.

1. This comes from a single player. As far as I know we have not been contacted by any official representative from Kylä, so it does not seem like their community as a whole had a big problem with Awaclus.

2. The sender (I assume keturin) goes on to say Awaclus behaved in a disrespectful and arrogant manner in the game thread. The game has been held in Finnish, so I have no way of verifying this.

3. Generally speaking, outing when you can still play is bad practice. It creates unneccesary work for the mods, who already spend their free time trying to provide a pleasant experience for everyone, and it disrupts the flow of the game.

4. That said, Awaclus was clear about his intent in outing when he sent his message to the mod, and would they have thought this should not be allowed, then they could have just told him so. They didn't, so I can only assume they were fine with it.
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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2018, 04:01:00 pm »

I agree with faust here.
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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2018, 04:35:40 pm »

If using /out strategically is not specifically prohibited by the rules, and if Awaclus discussed it before doing it... well, then I think it's up to the admins to prevent that kind of behavior if they don't like it. Maybe read the mafia daychat or add it to the ruleset. I also don't see how our rules are relevant here.

Generally, it's not the job of players to figure out which ways of playing are in good sport. The job of the players is to win. The job of the game designers (in this case the mod) is to design the game such that everyone trying to win results in a fun experience for everyone. Not that I wouldn't make exceptions to this rule in extreme cases, though. But in this case, if he saw a way to advance his wincon that was skirting the rules, well, then change the rules.
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keturin

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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2018, 04:47:43 pm »

I think Awaclus should ponder himself how his play style and attitude was received. The Kylä representatives said this should be let go, but Awaclus personally provoked me to contact theory about this.

So I guess I should say something.

4. That said, Awaclus was clear about his intent in outing when he sent his message to the mod, and would they have thought this should not be allowed, then they could have just told him so. They didn't, so I can only assume they were fine with it.


3) It is true that a mod of the game posted after the game to point out that my behavior was not acceptable. I could not have been reasonably expected to know that during the game, since it was not in the rules, and obviously if it had been in the rules, or the mods (who, to be fair, did not have access to the scum daychat) or my scumbuddy had informed me that quitting for strategic reasons is not acceptable on the forum, I would not have done it. In my message to the mods where I requested to /out, I did not claim to have any other motive for /outing besides the fact that I wasn't playing well enough. Apparently the mods assumed that it had something to do with people criticizing my playstyle, and subsequently sent out warnings to at least the person I believe this e-mail is from, but they made that assumption completely on their own and I most certainly did not try to mislead them into doing that.


I asked the game mod Jitachi about the reason Awaclus /outed from the game and they said it was due lack of sleep. Mods don't think he was being truthful about his reason to /out. I was given permission to pass this knowledge on. If Awaclus wants to object this, I think he should post his /out pm here and I can confirm what he actually said.

Look this is not really an issue, but I think these disrespectful things from Awa are starting to pile up. He intentionally /outed from the game to lessen the heat from his slot which he had himself caused and he lied to the admins about his reason to /out. Lying to the game mods is strictly prohibited. Take that as you will.
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Awaclus

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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2018, 05:05:55 pm »

I think Awaclus should ponder himself how his play style and attitude was received. The Kylä representatives said this should be let go, but Awaclus personally provoked me to contact theory about this.

It was your idea to contact theory, you brought it up. I didn't object to it because I had no reason to believe that theory would give me an unfair treatment.

I asked the game mod Jitachi about the reason Awaclus /outed from the game and they said it was due lack of sleep. Mods don't think he was being truthful about his reason to /out. I was given permission to pass this knowledge on. If Awaclus wants to object this, I think he should post his /out pm here and I can confirm what he actually said.

Look this is not really an issue, but I think these disrespectful things from Awa are starting to pile up. He intentionally /outed from the game to lessen the heat from his slot which he had himself caused and he lied to the admins about his reason to /out. Lying to the game mods is strictly prohibited. Take that as you will.

I did not /out from the game due to lack of sleep; I was playing badly, which was partially due to lack of sleep. This is true and this is what I told the mods. Here is my explanation that I sent to the mods verbatim:

"Ei ole motivaatiota pelata tässä porukassa, peli on aiheuttanut minulle nukahtamisvaikeuksia ja muutenkin vienyt enemmän aikaa kuin olisin halunnut, ja ensimmäinen päivä oli näistä syistä sen verran raskas, etten saa enää itsestäni irti riittävän hyvää suoritusta."

Which translates into:

"I don't feel motivated to play in this group, I have had trouble falling asleep because of the game and it has overall taken more time than I would have liked, and this is why the first game day was very taxing for me. As a result, I can't get a good enough performance out of myself anymore."

The lack of motivation was something I said in the heat of the moment due to a particular person who was not Keturin, because it didn't look like they were taking the game very seriously, and it's not something I believe anymore, but it wasn't a lie either and I stand by everything else that I said in that PM. I was tired, and that's part of why I wasn't feeling very confident in my ability to play well for my alignment. Everything I said in the scum chat and the game thread after the game has been consistent with all of this.
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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2018, 05:36:09 pm »

I think Awaclus should ponder himself how his play style and attitude was received.

I agree about his playstyle (as everyone here knows). And I'm sympathetic to your position. I'd say, don't invite him anymore. (Also maybe don't select based on rolling a die nationality? :P) But I don't think anything he's done, according to the stuff in this thread, warrants any sort of official punishment from theory or mafia admins. If you wanted to make us aware of the impression he left, duly noted.
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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2018, 06:00:02 pm »

I only said that I'd like to ask your community mods about how they feel about your actions. You provoked me to contact theory as he is a lawyer and it would be fun to see how he reacts that you're accused of breaking a nonexistent rule.

In the post-game you clearly argue that you /outed because you thought your slot is in a good position but that you were afraid that we would lynch you as a player "just in case". You found yourself from a position where you couldn't play well enough anymore, because honestly you hadn't played well. You had drawn in a lot of heat by choosing a heavy and taxing plays tyle for yourself. That was entirely on you. You /outed to mess with the reads to give your replacement player a better chance to win and said to mods that you don't think you can play well enough because the game had been so taxing. These are in total contradiction and even the mods think you were being untruthful. Lying to mods is not allowed.
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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2018, 06:18:27 pm »

I only said that I'd like to ask your community mods about how they feel about your actions. You provoked me to contact theory as he is a lawyer and it would be fun to see how he reacts that you're accused of breaking a nonexistent rule.

If you intended to say that in good faith, then it most certainly did not come across in the tone of your post, but I apologize if my response came off as further escalation. I did not want you to contact theory, I was hoping that I could convince you to not waste everyone's time.

In the post-game you clearly argue that you /outed because you thought your slot is in a good position but that you were afraid that we would lynch you as a player "just in case". You found yourself from a position where you couldn't play well enough anymore, because honestly you hadn't played well. You had drawn in a lot of heat by choosing a heavy and taxing plays tyle for yourself. That was entirely on you. You /outed to mess with the reads to give your replacement player a better chance to win and said to mods that you don't think you can play well enough because the game had been so taxing. These are in total contradiction and even the mods think you were being untruthful. Lying to mods is not allowed.

There is no contradiction, and this isn't even very complicated. In order to play well enough, I would have had to pull off not getting lynched somehow (because we established that me getting lynched is worse than anything that could have happened as a result of me /outing). For a while, I tried, but it didn't seem like I would have been able to do enough.
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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2018, 06:47:27 pm »

I only said that I'd like to ask your community mods about how they feel about your actions. You provoked me to contact theory as he is a lawyer and it would be fun to see how he reacts that you're accused of breaking a nonexistent rule.

If you intended to say that in good faith, then it most certainly did not come across in the tone of your post, but I apologize if my response came off as further escalation. I did not want you to contact theory, I was hoping that I could convince you to not waste everyone's time.

How "Go ahead, It would be fun to see how theory reacts" and providing his profile is not pushing it?

Look the bottom line is: the game mods think your actions by /outing to reset the heat for your slot and giving a misleading reason to /out was unacceptable. This partially drove the mods issue warnings because they thought you were smoked out of the game. Intentionally trying to manipulate the reads is not the same thing as "I don't think I can play well enough to win this." You shouldn't /out because you try to save the situation you had caused yourself. Most of the players have frowned on this and they said if scum had win because of your /out, they wouldn't have acknowledged the win.
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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2018, 06:48:46 pm »

Even your scumbuddy has acknowledged that you broke the rules.
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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2018, 07:08:53 pm »

I'm pretty sure that e-mail is from another player, not from the organizer, and he has somewhat misrepresented the situation there.

1) I did not cheat in the game, I followed all of the rules in the game and on their forum in general.

My scumbuddy was an admin on the site, and I discussed the plan with him in the scum daychat before doing it, and although he did mention that it's not "good sportsmanship", he agreed that it would be beneficial for our team and did not attempt to stop me.

3) It is true that a mod of the game posted after the game to point out that my behavior was not acceptable.

In my message to the mods where I requested to /out, I did not claim to have any other motive for /outing besides the fact that I wasn't playing well enough.


5) "Please do not use this (outing) as a manipulation technique" is obviously not a direct quote from any of our rules. He is referring to rule 3.9, and I have always understood the "this" in that rule to specifically refer to /outing in the main game thread, because that is what the entire rule is talking about.

Awaclus, Awaclus, Awaclus. Always playing fast with the rules. It's not a good look. It's really not a good look.

My advice? Wait for an official ruling from the moderators of the site.
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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2018, 07:15:47 pm »

The lack of motivation was something I said in the heat of the moment due to a particular person who was not Keturin, because it didn't look like they were taking the game very seriously, and it's not something I believe anymore, but it wasn't a lie either and I stand by everything else that I said in that PM. I was tired, and that's part of why I wasn't feeling very confident in my ability to play well for my alignment. Everything I said in the scum chat and the game thread after the game has been consistent with all of this.

Oh I actually didn't read this. How is this not shady?

vote: Awaclus

You do this stuff all of the time, you're interested in winning at all costs at the detriment of any sportsmanship. Anyways, Awaclus knows he did a bad, it's quite clear to me he did a bad. How bad this bad is, I don't know, but uh again not a good look.
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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2018, 07:20:51 pm »

How "Go ahead, It would be fun to see how theory reacts" and providing his profile is not pushing it?

You asked me to provide his profile. What do you expect me to do, refuse?

Look the bottom line is: the game mods think your actions by /outing to reset the heat for your slot and giving a misleading reason to /out was unacceptable. This partially drove the mods issue warnings because they thought you were smoked out of the game. Intentionally trying to manipulate the reads is not the same thing as "I don't think I can play well enough to win this." You shouldn't /out because you try to save the situation you had caused yourself. Most of the players have frowned on this and they said if scum had win because of your /out, they wouldn't have acknowledged the win.

I don't care what you think I should or shouldn't do, I care what's in the rules of the game.

Even your scumbuddy has acknowledged that you broke the rules.

It would be incredibly nice of you to stop misrepresenting the situation. What are you even trying to accomplish by posting things here that are obviously not true? No, my scumbuddy has not acknowledged that I broke the rules, at least not anywhere I can see it. He defended my actions for a while and then agreed to stop talking about the issue.

Oh I actually didn't read this. How is this not shady?

I /outed from the game within hours of a particular player stated that he thinks I'm town, but he advocates for lynching me anyway because town is in a good enough position that they can afford to lynch me even if I'm town. That was incredibly annoying at the time, but after taking a break from the game, it was only moderately annoying afterwards.
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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2018, 10:28:27 pm »

Another message I've received, which I've edited into the top post:

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Hello, Kylä's adminstrator Jitachi here.

First of all, I'm terribly sorry about the ruckus in finnish championship have spread in your forum too due message of Keturin. It is true Awaclus caused a lot of trouble in the championship with his playstyle and been juggling in grey area of rules, but honestly speaking I was wishing that would be kept inside our own forum without spreading further. However, due Awaclus have provoked Keturin, Keturin sent the messages and even asked testimony about game event from me I felt like I need to tell my own side. Like Awaclus said, he didn't send his /out request directly to me, but instead to GM of the game, Cameron: the reason I'm aware of content of the dropout message is she forwarded it to me for other reason. His full reason in pm to drop out was Awaclus lacked motivation to play in game; the game have caused sleeping problems and it was taking a lot of more time than he have wanted. In addition first day was so hard he felt like he was unable to give his best performance in game. It is true in Kylä you have right to give in any time you want, no matter the reason but because that was championship game that also meant his action made him disqualified because he didn't play game until the end. Ergo, in that regard he have been already punished about his actions because he is unable to win championship or give out victory points to other players which is the main idea of whole championship. Was his trick bit dirty? Definitely. But was it forbidden? Technically no, because no one in whole adminstration didn't realize the possibility of someone sacrificing his own chances to win championship to try help his team to win one game of mafia in hopeless setup which was basically unfair for bad guys with Masoner, roleblocker and town cop. Only thing I'm mad at him in role of game mod was not being truthful about reason to drop. Strategic reason is frowned and bit cheap, but because I had no idea he was planning it, I had no chances to discuss about it with him. I also hope Keturin and Awaclus stop discussing it outside official channels: what happened in Kylä doesn't involve in my opinion Dominion Strategy forums at all and Keturin's continued chase of Awaclus back in his own home forum is plainly unjustified.

Kind regards,
Johanna T./Jitachi
Mafia game forum Kylä
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keturin

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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2018, 11:12:30 pm »

Yeah I apologize for the ruckus, I didn't plan to come and blast here, but before this thread Awa was already made aware that his true strategic reason to /out and the reason to the mods were in contradictory and he was caught lying to the admins. It really pains me to see that even here he tries to sooth his behavior.

I take my leave now and I apologize again. May we meet again in more civil circumstances.
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Kirian

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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2018, 11:45:51 pm »

So:

(1) There's *championship* Mafia?  I don't even know how to feel about this revelation.

(2) We sent a representative to a Mafia championship?  Like an official f.DS person to represent us?  I'm entirely uninvolved in the Mafia community here because social deduction games cause me literal physical pain, but still I feel like... what the hell?

(3) Awaclus is a bit of a dick, and everyone on this forum (and likely that one!) knows this.

(4) Awaclus doesn't seem to have actually broken any rules over at their forum, and as we all know, breaking the spirit of the rules while adhering to their letter is a dick move that nonetheless fits the rules.  (Yet another reason I hate social deduction games, have you ever had to have an argument about the "spirit" of the rules in Dominion?  No, of course not.  Cue Walter Sobchak: "This is not 'Nam, this is bowling, there are *rules*.")

(5) Isn't this just the same as resigning?  The penalty for resigning is that you lose.  Which seems to have happened!

(6) Why did someone email theory about this?  Did Awaclus goad them into it or something?

(7) Why did I even involve myself in this conversation? (This is likely unanswerable.)

Summary: Awaclus is a bit of a dick, he did something apparently within the rules that might or might not have been a dick move, and he lost the game.  I mean, I'm shocked to be defending Awaclus here, but why is this thread even a thing?
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faust

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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2018, 01:24:29 am »

(1) There's *championship* Mafia?  I don't even know how to feel about this revelation.

(2) We sent a representative to a Mafia championship?  Like an official f.DS person to represent us?  I'm entirely uninvolved in the Mafia community here because social deduction games cause me literal physical pain, but still I feel like... what the hell?
There is, but it is not this one. This one is a Finnish championship, held in Finnish. As far as I am aware, our mafia community has exactly two Finnish people in it and we could send up to 3 people. There was no choice of a representative involved there really.

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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

mcmcsalot

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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2018, 10:53:30 am »

I think this discussion really has two parts to it that are less related then it at first appears.

1. Did awaclus break rules by outing from the game?
2. Was awaclus’s playstyle uncivil and thus merits punishment of some kind?

It is rather difficult to answer the first question based on the fact that from what I can tell it is largely a matter of intention/specifics. I personally believe outing for strategic reasons should be strongly looked down upon and I wish awaclus had merely conceded instead. However everyone has had moments where they made game decisions that they regret and unless it became a consistent issue I don’t think that it merits punishment.

The second question is also hard to answer without reading the game which I cannot, but judging from awaclus playstyle here I would guess he was not uncivil. I have never been a huge fan of awaclus playstyle, it’s mildly frustrating but I can with certainty say he has never been rude, cruel, or uncivil in the games I have played with him.

So while I can understand the players frustration with awaclus I don’t think there needs to be any form of punishment beyond what has already been most likely an embarrassing back and forth for awaclus.
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Kirian

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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2018, 01:36:04 pm »

(1) There's *championship* Mafia?  I don't even know how to feel about this revelation.

(2) We sent a representative to a Mafia championship?  Like an official f.DS person to represent us?  I'm entirely uninvolved in the Mafia community here because social deduction games cause me literal physical pain, but still I feel like... what the hell?
There is, but it is not this one. This one is a Finnish championship, held in Finnish. As far as I am aware, our mafia community has exactly two Finnish people in it and we could send up to 3 people. There was no choice of a representative involved there really.


Seems ironic that he decided not to... Finnish.

/sorry not sorry
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pacovf

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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2018, 04:01:59 pm »

It does not seem like the moderator wants us to make any further action about this, and in fact wishes the situation hadn't spread over here. As far as I am concerned, that should be the end of it.

On the other hand, if Awaclus is presenting himself as an "ambassador" (or whatever) of f.ds mafia, that is a problem that should be dealt with.
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faust

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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2018, 05:53:58 pm »

On the other hand, if Awaclus is presenting himself as an "ambassador" (or whatever) of f.ds mafia, that is a problem that should be dealt with.
He is not.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2018, 07:46:28 am »

I'm not presenting myself as an ambassador of f.ds mafia, I just represented f.ds in a championship because we were invited, I was the only one who was both eligible and available, and nobody objected to it when I made a thread about it here. Me being an "ambassador" was Keturin's interpretation.
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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2018, 04:04:47 pm »

Oh, I don't now. Given the amount of unwanted crap that is being flung back and forth between everyone involved in this argument, I'd say Awaclus could very easily be seen as an Ambassador.
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Re: Awaclus and the Finnish Championship
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2018, 02:57:36 pm »

I'm satisfied with the consensus that appears to have been reached, so I'm locking this thread.  Thanks, everyone.
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