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Author Topic: New fan based alchemy cards.  (Read 619 times)

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ClouduHieh

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New fan based alchemy cards.
« on: October 17, 2018, 11:57:01 pm »
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Awhile back I had posted this same thing. But now since I figured out how to post the pictures, I figured Iíd start with a new clean slate. Now that I can post them on here maybe it will be easier to Change ideas.

One thing about alchemy was there were some cool cards that were pretty powerful. But not enough to play with on its own. So the point of this is to create enough cards. That with the new cards it would be possible to play alchemy on its own just like any other expansion. So if you want to post your alchemy cards that would be great. Hopefully together we give alchemy a nice balance to it. And with some new powerful cards too. And maybe make it a little easier to buy alchemy cards or least the cheaper ones. And hopefully give potion some other uses. And of course some cards that go with alchemy, but donít have potion in its cost, like herbalist and apprentice.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 06:45:07 pm by ClouduHieh »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2018, 12:33:42 am »
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« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 06:45:22 pm by ClouduHieh »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2018, 12:47:14 am »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2018, 03:29:22 am »
+1

Imgur has a cropping tool, or you can use Microsoft Paint

In all your threads the card picture is too small to read, and clicking on it makes it too big.

Anyway, the cards:
- Mad Scientist has the problem where you can annihilate other players hands, which makes the game unfun (that's why Torturer lets the player being attacked choose). I do like the idea of a card that makes it easier to buy further copies of itself and itself only (a $P costing card that gives +$P) but I'm not sure this is the right on play effect for it. A card being worth negative VP should generally have a very good reason for it.

- Magnifying Glass is a "Silver with a bonus" for $4 - one of the things that generally isn't done. It's not strategically interesting; in games with it when you have $4 and want a Silver, generally you'd buy a Magnifying Glass without thinking. I'd suggest making it give +$1 and figure out some way to make the deck inspection useful in more games. Also remember under the current rules it won't necessarily appear in the same kingdom as a card costing $P.

- Wine Cellar is interesting but probably too powerful. Just buying a single Wine Cellar gives +2VP per potion (as long as you buy an even number), which puts it in a similar league to Tunnel, Island and Cemetery. However you can buy multiple Wine Cellars and each Wine Cellars on play effect makes it less likely those potions are going to clog up your deck, and makes it a easter to make exactly $4P to get another one. If you get 3, each potion is a Province - that's too powerful.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2018, 02:50:31 pm »
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I canít use Microsoft paint on my device. On iPads you can zoom in quite easily and see the picture.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2018, 03:02:36 pm »
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Wine cellar is sopose to be 4 victories for every 2 potions. If you only have one potion at end of game itís worth 0 victory points. So that means they would have to have 4 potions in order for it to be worth more than a province.

Mad scientist
The reason why I made mad scientist a minus victory point is to keep players from buying too many of them. Or if thereís a descent trasher like apprentice, buy a bunch. Do a few attacks gain lots of other potion cards. And trash as many as you can before end of game. I donít mind changing it to let each player decide for themselves though with what attack affects them.

Magnifying glass
I might change it to a copper with a benefit. Maybe make it more like a silver potion strategy. Like a treasure card costing up to 4$ from the cards revealed.
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Dsell

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2018, 03:38:53 pm »
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Wine cellar is sopose to be 4 victories for every 2 potions. If you only have one potion at end of game itís worth 0 victory points. So that means they would have to have 4 potions in order for it to be worth more than a province.

Look at it this way. If I've purchased 3 wine cellars (obviously I already have 1 potion in my deck at this point), gaining just 1 potion will net 12 points for the deck - equivalent to 2 provinces. Adding 2 additional potions beyond that would get 12 points for the pair, meaning that the average value of buying a new potion is 6 points, or equal to a province.

That would be very strong for any victory card, but this is also an action card that can help you buy more copies of itself, or potions. I would consider trying this card at 1VP/2 potions.

Thinking about alt-vp in general, they generally fall into 2 categories: steep potential but they do nothing for your deck (gardens, vineyards, silk road) or they have low and static point values but do something nice for your deck (Island, Tunnel, Farmland). Wine Cellar does both, and it's not too difficult to get its point values into the ridiculous range if you can gain lots of potions. I don't mean to say that a Dominion card can't have both variable vp and a nice benefit for your deck, but if a card falls into that category, it either needs to a very high cost, a lower point curve than other alt-vp, or a weaker benefit than some of the victories with benefits.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 03:41:30 pm by Dsell »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2018, 06:18:38 pm »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2018, 06:44:17 pm »
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ConMan

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2018, 11:56:23 pm »
+1


You can just say "Costing up to ". And it doesn't need a dividing line.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2018, 12:46:03 am »
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Oh ok Iíll fix it later and repost it.
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King Leon

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2018, 01:47:49 am »
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Mortar and Pestle even does not require to be a Duration card. Whether you gain a card now or in the next turn only matters, if you are about to shuffle. Sure, as a trasher, this card thins your deck, but I don't think it even needs to delay the gain.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2018, 01:51:24 am »
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« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 11:18:53 pm by ClouduHieh »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2018, 01:55:43 am »
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And yet Iím trying to make mortal and pestle a theme. It takes time to mash the ingredients. And I might make it gain it to your hand. Maybe that will make it worth the wait.
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crlundy

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2018, 03:05:00 am »
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Locked Door/Secret Market: Even as a Black Market variant, I think both cards are far too swingy. Guessing your top card can be tough, especially for casual players. And even if everyone manages to get a Secret Market, I could get a Bureaucrat and you get a Possession.

And yet Iím trying to make mortal and pestle a theme. It takes time to mash the ingredients. And I might make it gain it to your hand. Maybe that will make it worth the wait.
This will make it similar to Cobbler (since you don't plan to own Nocturne, you may appreciate having Mortar and Pestle as a stand-in). If there are no other Potion-costing cards in the Kingdom, the gaining will be weak. Also, gaining a Copper or trashing 2 cards seems an odd pairing.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2018, 03:26:27 am »
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It may seem odd but what if you had 2 good actions, a province, a gold and a copper. What would you choose gain a copper or trash a really good card like your gold. If you ask me itís a no brainer. And seems to happen to me all the time I have a good hand but I have to trash a really good card in order to use the action. With mercenary Iíve always had to trash good cards to play with card. Gaining a copper get out of jail free card.

Wishing well I get my guess right 1 out of 3. Plus if you want to make it an easier guess keep your coppers, youíll guess right almost every time. Iíve played wishing well many times and Iíve guessed right with copper more times than I can count. But if you want to make the guessing game harder on yourself trashing your coppers too early is your choice to make.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 03:28:06 am by ClouduHieh »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2018, 03:42:07 am »
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And yeah only one person gets possession, thatís half the fun though. Also only one person would get it with black market anyway. Although it would be really hard to get with black market. On my previous thread secret market was just like black market except you got 3$ instead of 2$. But everyone was complaining that i didnít make it worth getting over black market. So I changed it to this. Making it different to get. ( whatís the secret password?) giving you a free card. Instead of having to buy it. And if my remember correctly the first one win the tournament card. Would get a prize. Followers! Only one those too!

And possession can be double edged sword. Iíve played it with my friends. Controlled thier turn, they only have a silver and 1 copper and 1 margrave and 2 provinces. So I use thier turn to buy a estate. Then they get a new turn. And are able to buy a province. Possession didnít helped me whatsoever, but it did help them in a big way. So possession double edged sword. Not that Wonít stop me to try and get it. And a possession turn that uses an attack card hurts the person who played it.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 03:46:01 am by ClouduHieh »
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crlundy

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2018, 01:32:31 pm »
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I definitely understand that only one person gets each card from the Secret Market or Black Market deck. My concern was more that you could get a Bureaucrat and a Possession for the same effort. With Black Market, you actually have to pay up, so there is a cost to managing to get something like Possession. Black Market also gives you a choice of cards as well so you're not sad if the top one wasn't what you wanted.

Gaining the card instead of buying it is definitely better rules-wise, and helps make Secret Market different from Black Market, so I would try to find a way to keep that approach. Maybe let you pick between a couple cards with gaining one optional? You could also change the +$2 to something like, "If the gained card costs $3P or less, +$2", for balance, but I'm disinclined to make it wordier.

Gaining a copper get out of jail free card.
It's definitely good to have the alternative, so there's not mandatory multi-card trashing. Maybe I meant amusing, more than odd; I wasn't implying you should change it.

Plus if you want to make it an easier guess keep your coppers, youíll guess right almost every time.
Keeping your Coppers might help you get to Secret Market more easily, but there is the opportunity cost of, what if I ignored Secret Market and did something else instead?
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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2018, 08:21:10 pm »
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Black Market also gives you a choice of cards as well so you're not sad if the top one wasn't what you wanted.

It's also worth noting that it doesn't force you to gain anything at all. I'd say at the very least you should get to choose whether to gain the top card or not. As it is now, i'd rarely go for it; there are just too many ways an unwanted card can wreck your deck. Having said that, it's possible it could work without offering a choice of more than one card; that's already an effective penalty to make up for the fact that you get the card for free.

I do like the fact that just gaining it directly means no screwing around with Treasure rules. And there's another interesting bonus: Since the price doesn't matter, there's a possibility of this working such that your opponents can't see what card you gained. Obviously some cards have on-gain stuff that you'd have to reveal, so this wouldn't work with those. But still, if you gained it some other way besides the discard pile, it would make a neat surprise the first time you play it. Gives a whole new dimension to the "Secret" Part.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2018, 10:10:27 pm »
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Chuckles you got it right. It was sopose to be a secret which card you gained until you actually got to play it. But I sopose I can change so you can choose to or not.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2018, 10:46:46 pm »
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« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 11:18:18 pm by ClouduHieh »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2018, 11:00:36 pm »
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« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 11:17:55 pm by ClouduHieh »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2018, 11:04:23 pm »
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Hermit also letís you trash from the discard pile. However your limited to what you can trash. This one lets you trash whatever you want. Not bad for an all cure.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2018, 03:50:04 pm »
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« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 11:18:06 pm by ClouduHieh »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2018, 11:17:20 pm »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2018, 11:33:38 pm »
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Hmm, I'm somewhat intrigued by the idea of a Remodeler that takes an extra turn to remodel.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2018, 11:38:57 pm »
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For instance you could set aside an estate with potter, then on your next turn you would trash the estate and gain a mad scientist if it was in the game or a wine cellar if it was in the game. And if they werenít in the game you still gain a card costing up to 5$.
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boris

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2018, 11:18:54 am »
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I think this could be too strong with the current wording. If you for instance throne two village idiots, which probably would not be hard, this could really hurt opponents. Maybe consider "while this is in play" to rule out throne room stuff. Still, it is relatively simple to play multiple village idiots I believe.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 11:20:43 am by boris »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2018, 01:25:46 am »
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True but if you throne roomed witch for instance, witch would be a lot worse. Unless you think copper is worse than curses. Also you have the option each time take 2 debt or a copper. If it was throne roomed you could take both or if there were really good trashers like chapel you would just take 2 coppers. Also itís only when you buy something that you would gain a penalty. So just donít buy anything unless itís a potion or event or artifact, and you will be fine. Village idiot is a weaker version of swamp hag. Cause a copper is always better than a curse.
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boris

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2018, 03:52:19 am »
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Village idiot is a weaker version of swamp hag. Cause a copper is always better than a curse.

I thought a bit about it and I also think, that it is comparable to swamp hag, but I would not say that it is necessarily weaker. Village idiot is non-terminal and therefore simpler to play in multiples and you can get it sooner than swamp hag.

I would not say that copper is always better than curses, at least in the long run. Curses run out eventually, but there are 46 coppers.

What I would be concerned about, are situations which completely wreck the next turn of your opponent. If you have played 4 village idiots (and you decide not to get the coppers altogether, because you already have 20) then all cards cost at least as much as a card like city quarter, which is a pretty strong card. Playing 4 witches and 4 swamp hags on the other hand is more difficult, because these cards are terminal. On top of that,  their effects eventually wear off.

So throne room issues aside, the card may create situations where your opponent's deck is either full of coppers or they cannot buy a whole lot. I guess removing "+1 Action" would solve this and the price might still be reasonable.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2018, 08:47:05 am »
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Village idiot is a weaker version of swamp hag. Cause a copper is always better than a curse.

I thought a bit about it and I also think, that it is comparable to swamp hag, but I would not say that it is necessarily weaker. Village idiot is non-terminal and therefore simpler to play in multiples and you can get it sooner than swamp hag.

I would not say that copper is always better than curses, at least in the long run. Curses run out eventually, but there are 46 coppers.

What I would be concerned about, are situations which completely wreck the next turn of your opponent. If you have played 4 village idiots (and you decide not to get the coppers altogether, because you already have 20) then all cards cost at least as much as a card like city quarter, which is a pretty strong card. Playing 4 witches and 4 swamp hags on the other hand is more difficult, because these cards are terminal. On top of that,  their effects eventually wear off.

So throne room issues aside, the card may create situations where your opponent's deck is either full of coppers or they cannot buy a whole lot. I guess removing "+1 Action" would solve this and the price might still be reasonable.
I agree; simply making it non-terminal should make it much better and more balanced.
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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2018, 10:36:32 am »
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Yes however +1 Action must also stay itís part of my theme for the card. Also I donít think itís a bad idea to have tons extra coppers. And like I said if you want to avoid the coppers buy a potion. Or nothing. And you wonít have to worry about the attack if swamp hag was played 3 times which easily possible in a 4 player game. Then the 4th player would either skip his buy phase. Buy an event. Or if there were other ways to gain cards. He would buy a bunch of them earlier on. With swamp hag Iím sure that has happened multiple times. And since itís just like swamp hag it doesnít get shuffled thru your deck as often as a normal action. And like I said you can also choose a little debt if your so afraid of coppers. If apothecary was in the game yeah sure attack me as many times as your want with village idiot. And you may think swamp hag is harder to buy. But not really. Especially if you get to buy it on the first turn. Then the turn after you play it you can easily buy another one. And if thereís a card with +2 Actions itís not impossible to play swamp hag 2 or 3 times in a turn. In fact I myself have been able to play online with swamp hag 4 times same turn. With royal carriage. And whatís better a hand with 3 victories and 2 curses or a hand with 5 coppers.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2018, 11:00:05 am »
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Yes however +1 Action must also stay itís part of my theme for the card.
Could you explain the theme of the card? Village idiot is generally a term for someone who buys too many villages, and I don't really see how that shows here. The theme here is against someone buying any cards? I don't really see the theme here.
Also I donít think itís a bad idea to have tons extra coppers. And like I said if you want to avoid the coppers buy a potion. Or nothing.
You do realize that you are in the large minority here, which is why there are heavy trashers like chapel or steward. Also, it would work better if there was a reason to buy potions, for instance you could replace either part of the cost with a potion. And you know that encouraging players not to buy anything leads to much more slog-like games which last much longer and are not most people's favorite games, but if you like copper-based strategies I guess you like that. Not trying to attack you for that, just noting that copper games are often sloggier.
And you may think swamp hag is harder to buy. But not really. Especially if you get to buy it on the first turn. Then the turn after you play it you can easily buy another one.
Actually, Swamp Hag is much harder to buy. You could always, let me repeat that, always open with Village Idiot, while there is a slim chance of being able to open with Swamp Hag. The jump from even $4 to $5 is huge, so the jump from $2 (even with debt attatched) to $5 is rediculous.

The card is not broken and is a good idea. I just think there are a couple of ways to make it more balanced. Remove the debt cost and make it a normal $5 or something, or add potion to the cost instead of debt or coin, or you could remove the +1 Action. Also, wording thing, I think you need to add (they may choose an option they can't do) to the end of the card, allowing them to gain copper with no coppers left. If you want them to need to take debt if there are no coppers left, (this idea would be bad and could lock people out of the game with it), you could say, they may gain a copper. If they don't, they take 2 debt.
All in all, it is a nice card that needs some finishing up. Nothing wrong with that. I certainly hope I come off more as constructive than critical.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2018, 11:01:34 am »
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Also, could you please put all the images into the OP. It would make it much easier to see all of your cards.
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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2018, 11:03:32 am »
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Yeah I donít mind adding a potion to the cost.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2018, 11:09:30 am »
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Are you adding it to the other cost, or taking away part of the original cost? I think it would be too expensive to have it cost $2, 3 debt and a potion. I think if you take away either the $ or debt part it should work. I still think you should really consider making it terminal.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2018, 11:11:16 am »
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Well for one thing he lives in a village, so you should get Actions playing it but heís also an idiot so getting +1 action is because heís an idiot. Also since youíve always been told to not mess with the crazies your giving him money to get him to leave you alone. Which does work he gives you something which probably just think is junk and he walks away.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2018, 11:17:20 am »
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Now I see, I like the theme a lot now, but I'm not sure it needs the +1 Action to work. Theme should be secondary to playablity, but maybe it's okay with +1 Action if it costs Potion
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ClouduHieh

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2018, 11:18:56 am »
+1

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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2018, 11:21:29 am »
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That looks much better for Village Idiot. Great art by the way. Moving on (for now).
Potter is very interesting, but it should get finished up like this:

+1 Card
+1 Action
Set aside a card from your hand face down (under this). At the start of your next turn, trash it and gain a card costing up to $3P more than it.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2018, 09:25:46 pm »
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If  I wrote it that way and trashed an estate would it still sound viable to turn it into a mad scientist. Because thatís why I wrote it that way. Or if I worded it that way would it sound viable to trash a university for a duchy. Because thatís why I worded it the way I have it. So you could trash one or the other and still get one or the other.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 09:29:05 pm by ClouduHieh »
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crlundy

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2018, 02:21:13 am »
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Yep, Fly-Eagles-Fly's wording works like yours did. For example, a both a $3 and a $3P could become either a $6 or a $6P.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2018, 10:45:47 am »
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If  I wrote it that way and trashed an estate would it still sound viable to turn it into a mad scientist. Because thatís why I wrote it that way. Or if I worded it that way would it sound viable to trash a university for a duchy. Because thatís why I worded it the way I have it. So you could trash one or the other and still get one or the other.
Yes, if you trashed an estate, by my wording you could gain a card costing up to $5P. Mad Scientist costs $5P, bingo you can gain a Mad Scientist. Or you could gain a Duchy, because $5 is less than $5P. Trash a University, gain a card costing up to $5PP, still gain a Duchy.
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GendoIkari

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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2018, 11:33:36 am »
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You might be missing the fact that a card that costs does cost "up to ". And a card that costs also costs "up to ". So if you can gain a card costing "up to more" than the trashed card, then you can turn an Estate into a Golem, or a Copper into a Scrying Pool, or a Scrying Pool into a Golem, etc.
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Re: New fan based alchemy cards.
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2018, 06:53:26 pm »
+1

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