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Author Topic: Snowline fan-based expansion.  (Read 6109 times)

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ClouduHieh

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Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« Reply #125 on: October 25, 2018, 01:44:49 pm »
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Cause I like blizzard as an event instead of an attack duration.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« Reply #126 on: October 25, 2018, 02:38:01 pm »
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Well first of all the blizzard event was a nasty duration attack. And fur coat was the best defense for it. But then I had to change blizzard to make log cabin a little more useful. I might change fur coat so that it interacts with the blizzard event instead of attack cards. That means Iíll probably change the whole card again. And maybe retweak all 3 cards and repost them again.

Asper did lumberjack say gain cards. Sorry I meant buy cards. Iíll change that later.

It sounds like you're making some cards specifically to interact with other specific cards. I think the only way that works is if it's either a split-pile, or a non-supply card that can be gained by the other card. Otherwise, designs based on specific interactions will seem bad when looked at as an individual card (which is how most people are going to look at each card).
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« Reply #127 on: October 25, 2018, 05:28:40 pm »
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Yeah something like that. But if remember correctly nocturne had heirlooms.
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crlundy

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Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« Reply #128 on: October 25, 2018, 07:40:27 pm »
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The Heirlooms were paired with Kingdom cards, so they always show up together so the effect wasn't dead (e.g. you can always trash Haunted Mirror because at the least Cemetery is there). Also, some Heirlooms and their Kingdom cards didn't even depend on each other to be useful (e.g. Tracker and Pouch).

Official Dominion cards strive to be viable in any random Kingdom. Reactions tend to be Kingdom-dependent: The bottom of Tunnel requires discarders, so Donald X. ensured the top was compelling enough for it to be bought, even in games where there was no combo. Throne Room would be a dud with no other Action cards, but this is reasonably unlikely.

You can also consider this anecdote from the Nocturne Secret History, about a card that was cut for varying too much based on the other cards around:
Quote
For a long time there was a Night attack that Cursed the other players if you had exactly 3 of anything in play. Early on it would probably be 3 Coppers, but it could be something else. Ö After some game where it seemed strong, I realized that we were endlessly seeing it in games with Heirlooms, and thus not 7 Coppers. We played some more games with no Heirlooms and it seemed obviously too strong. I tried a bunch of variations on it quickly and then killed it.
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Asper

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Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« Reply #129 on: October 26, 2018, 06:02:59 am »
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Asper did lumberjack say gain cards. Sorry I meant buy cards. Iíll change that later.

Yes, it currently says gained :)
I think both are fine. That's up to your preference. Bought cards are a bit easier to remember, but that's all.

ClouduHieh

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Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« Reply #130 on: October 26, 2018, 09:07:34 pm »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« Reply #131 on: October 26, 2018, 11:01:54 pm »
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Now there is only 5 Fur coat and 5 Log Cabin. They are a split pile together. With fur coat on top.



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ClouduHieh

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Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« Reply #132 on: October 26, 2018, 11:09:56 pm »
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This was designed by a friend. So if you donít like and it needs to be changed cause itís too powerful or something. Just please ignore it. Itís not my place to change it. Iím only allowed to fix grammar like errors.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 11:11:59 pm by ClouduHieh »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« Reply #133 on: October 26, 2018, 11:39:44 pm »
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This was designed by a friend. So if you don’t like and it needs to be changed cause it’s too powerful or something. Just please ignore it. It’s not my place to change it. I’m only allowed to fix grammar like errors.

"Discard an Estate and a Copper for +2 Cards, + $2. If you can't, gain a Copper." is more like Renaissance wording.
Oh yes, also: the Action text goes above the Victory text.

Okay, a review, too: Powerwise, the victory part is probably good. $5 normally gets you 3VP, so only getting 2VP normally, 4VP if you have 6-8 Estates in your deck, probably okay. 6VP if you have 9 Estates is pretty powerful, but then your opponents are letting you buy up a lot of Estates in a game where Snowman is a Kingdom, what were they thinking?

The value added by the Action is maybe harder to tell, however, +1 Buy gain a Copper is baaaaaaaaad, +1 Buy +2 Card +$2 is pretty good (around $5 itself) but not consistent. I think it's probably okay, maybe it should be $6.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 11:44:17 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« Reply #134 on: October 26, 2018, 11:42:18 pm »
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So I have one more split pile. One more set of travelers. And one more lonely action. Which is my attack-reaction card. Unless I come up with more ideas that should complete my snowline expansion. So at least 8 differently named cards left.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« Reply #135 on: October 27, 2018, 02:03:01 am »
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If you look at Mill or Great Hall, the newest Log Cabin should really be worth 1 VP, not 2. At 2 itís way better than either of those.
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Asper

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Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« Reply #136 on: October 27, 2018, 08:48:44 am »
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I like a Crisp Day, but I think it's interesting enough on its own and doesn't really need to be paired with those other two cards.

ClouduHieh

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Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« Reply #137 on: October 27, 2018, 10:15:40 pm »
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Yes but I needed it too because fur coat needs to be useful with a blizzard. Itís part of the theme. And I need something to keep blizzard in check. Itís also theme.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« Reply #138 on: October 29, 2018, 01:33:36 am »
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Thereís only 5 log cabins now. If you were playing a 4 player game only one player could have more than one. Also with blizzard in the game you will probably want to trash it for a better card. And if itís near end of game you might get yourself a duchy anyway. Nobles May have costed 6$ but itís the best official  action-victory card. Log cabin is 5$ and while the action is useful. I think we can all agree at least most of the time nobles will be better than log cabin.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« Reply #139 on: October 29, 2018, 02:30:26 am »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« Reply #140 on: October 29, 2018, 02:37:41 am »
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Why does Sell Sword give the option to discard from the top of your deck instead of your hand? Discarding cards from the top of your deck is generally a benefit to you; you'd always make that choice.

I don't understand the last part of Warden... what does it mean "for each different attack you revealed this to"? At the time you are revealing it, it will always be just to 1 specific attack. Does it mean attacks that it was revealed to earlier in the turn? Earlier in the game? There's no way to track that information.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« Reply #141 on: October 29, 2018, 10:51:46 am »
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First of all warden is not like champion. Warden will end up in your discard pile too. So you will draw cards for a little while. And you canít double up if you have 2 wardens because you still only get one card for each different attack. If wolves is played twice by the same player itís still the same attack. And if another player plays wolves itís still the same attack. Getting extra cards is still quite possible since you have to play 3 different attacks to get the warden in the first place.

Itís means that if a different attack attacks you before your next turn. You can keep drawing cards. If your playing in a 4 player game. Player 1 plays hedgeknight you reveal block the attack draw one card. Then he plays wolves block attack again draw another card. Player 2 plays sellsword block attack draw another card. Player 3 plays outlaw block attack draw another card player 3 plays outlaw again block attack. Nothing else happens itís the same attack.

Sellsword might be a weaker attack so what your only going to play it once. Hedgeknight and warden are so much better than sellsword anyway. Also discarding your top 3 cards isnít always the best option. What if your hand allowed you to draw some cards and get some extra actions and you decide to go with the second option and you end up discard a powerful attack you only have one of them and you havenít gotten to play it yet and then another of the 3 is a gold. Man oh man I knew I should of discarded that copper and silver from my hand instead. And then you play your turn and you end with 2 coppers and victory instead of what you could of gotten. The 2nd choice is still a gamble. Some like to risk it and some like to go with a sure thing.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 10:59:38 am by ClouduHieh »
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« Reply #142 on: October 29, 2018, 11:07:49 am »
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The problem with Warden, like GendoIkari said, is that there is no way to track all those attacks, except in your head which can be a lot of things to remember and argue about in a game. It is a nice card, but has some issues. I do like the concept though, but you should try to think of a way to shine it up a bit, make it more game-friendly. Also, please put all the cards in the OP. It makes it so much easier to see all the cards. Finally, another thing about your cards. All your cards with a different main color, like victorys, durations, etc, have the whole card be that color, while official cards have the color only around the border. Are you using VioletCLM's generator here: https://shemitz.net/static/dominion3/?title=&description=&type=&credit=&price=&preview=&type2=&picture=&color0=0&color1=0&size=0? Because the problem is easily fixed by only putting the type in the first color box, and the second one should say Same, not the same thing as the first box.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« Reply #143 on: October 29, 2018, 11:32:33 am »
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Also, looking all the way back to Sled Dogs, that card still has a bunch of issues. To function as it currently does, here's a better way to word it.
+1 Card
+1 Action
Gain a non-Reserve Action card costing up to $4 to your Tavern mat. Turn your Journey token over (it starts face up). Then if it's face up, take a non-Reserve card from your Tavern mat to your hand.

There's really no good way to word the part where you take a card from the Tavern mat, so just work with whatever.
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Asper

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Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« Reply #144 on: October 29, 2018, 12:52:16 pm »
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I don't really think the issue with Warden is all that bad as you guys make it sound. It needs some rewording to make clear whether it's about different copies of attack cards, or about differently NAMED attack cards (for the first, two Torturers would count as two cards, the second wouldn't) but that's about it. Treasure Hunter certainly isn't better.

GendoIkari

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Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« Reply #145 on: October 29, 2018, 01:29:24 pm »
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I don't really think the issue with Warden is all that bad as you guys make it sound. It needs some rewording to make clear whether it's about different copies of attack cards, or about differently NAMED attack cards (for the first, two Torturers would count as two cards, the second wouldn't) but that's about it. Treasure Hunter certainly isn't better.

As worded, I genuinely don't know what the intention is:

-Draw a card for each attack that was played this turn that you reacted to with this specific copy of Warden
-Draw a card for each attack that was played this game that you reacted to with this specific copy of Warden
-Draw a card for each attack that you have reacted to this turn with a Warden
-Draw a card for each attack that you have reacted to this game with a Warden

Of all those options, #3 is the only one that is theoretically feasible due to tracking. That one is comparable to Treasure Hunter in terms of how much tracking is needed.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« Reply #146 on: October 29, 2018, 01:35:06 pm »
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Ok, looking through the explanation, I think I understand, but I'm still not certain. Perhaps what you want is something like this?

"When another player plays an Attack card, you may first reveal this from your hand, to be unaffected by it. If this is the first time you revealed a Warden to an attack with this name this turn, +1 card."

I think the only difference here is that it will work on each of your opponent's turns. I think it would be crazy to try and word it so that it doesn't work that way (unless you make it a Duration card that gets discarded when activated).

It's still seems like overly complex wording for a simple effect... I'm not sure the idea of trying to prevent it from working multiple times is worth it. Though of course you do have to have a way of preventing a player from infinitely revealing it to 1 attack.
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Asper

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Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« Reply #147 on: October 29, 2018, 02:39:33 pm »
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Ah, right, the tracking of different copies of Warden... I understood it as something like:

+1 Card per attack card you revealed a Warden to this turn.

But yes, of course you could technically reveal it multiple times and abuse the card that way. I forgot about this.

ClouduHieh, the rules of Dominion allow you to reveal any Reaction card multiple times to the same attack. It's a bit complicated to explain why, but nonetheless it's allowed. All the real Dominion cards take care that this doesn't make the game unfair: Some simply don't give you anything extra if you reveal it multiple times. Like Moat, because you are either protected from an attack or not, but you can't be protected multiple times... And some Reaction cards simply move themselves away from your hand, so you can only reveal them from your hand once.

The problem is, if Warden makes you draw cards when you reveal it, because the rules allow you to reveal it multiple times, you can use it to draw as many cards as you want.

Here is an idea:

When another player plays an attack card, you may reveal this from your hand. If it is the first time you revealed a Warden to that card, it doesn't affect you, and +1 Card per Attack card the other player has in play.

Sadly,this is a lot of text... Another idea:

When another player plays an attack card, you may set this aside from your hand. If you do, until your next turn, when another player plays an attack card, it doesn't affect you and +1 Card. At the start of your next turn, put this in your hand.

Erm,that's even worse... Maybe a Duration card? This is more tricky than I thought.

ClouduHieh

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Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« Reply #148 on: October 29, 2018, 09:00:20 pm »
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Okay the way it is sopose to work. And if you canít keep track or trust each other to keep track perfectly. Because no ones perfect. Write it down on a piece of paper.

Player 1 plays a wolves ( Your warden blocks it and draw a card.) now write down you drew a card for wolves. Player one plays wolves again. (Your warden blocks it) player 1 plays a hedgeknight ( your warden blocks it draw a card) now write down you drew a card for hedgeknight. Player 2 plays hedgeknight ( Your warden blocks it) player 3 plays avalanche ( Your warden blocks it and draw a card.) now write down you drew a card for avalanche. Player 3 plays wolves ( Your warden blocks it and wait letís see oh yes I already drew a card for wolves.) now itís my turn. Iíve got 3 extra cards this turn, yes a lot of attacks were played but there were only 3 differently named cards. So yes you are welcome to reveal warden as many times as you want, but your still limited to what you can actually get. And even if you had 2 wardens you would still only get one card for each differently named attack.

And with that said. Since 3 of the 5 travelers for this set are attack cards. You can at least get 3 cards on some occasions. And if thereís more attack cards you could get a lot of cards. Especially with knights. So go ahead reveal warden to wolves 500 times youíll still only get one card even if it was 500 wolves.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 09:19:19 pm by ClouduHieh »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Snowline fan-based expansion.
« Reply #149 on: October 29, 2018, 11:19:42 pm »
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Okay the way it is sopose to work. And if you canít keep track or trust each other to keep track perfectly. Because no ones perfect. Write it down on a piece of paper.

Player 1 plays a wolves ( Your warden blocks it and draw a card.) now write down you drew a card for wolves. Player one plays wolves again. (Your warden blocks it) player 1 plays a hedgeknight ( your warden blocks it draw a card) now write down you drew a card for hedgeknight. Player 2 plays hedgeknight ( Your warden blocks it) player 3 plays avalanche ( Your warden blocks it and draw a card.) now write down you drew a card for avalanche. Player 3 plays wolves ( Your warden blocks it and wait letís see oh yes I already drew a card for wolves.) now itís my turn. Iíve got 3 extra cards this turn, yes a lot of attacks were played but there were only 3 differently named cards. So yes you are welcome to reveal warden as many times as you want, but your still limited to what you can actually get. And even if you had 2 wardens you would still only get one card for each differently named attack.

And with that said. Since 3 of the 5 travelers for this set are attack cards. You can at least get 3 cards on some occasions. And if thereís more attack cards you could get a lot of cards. Especially with knights. So go ahead reveal warden to wolves 500 times youíll still only get one card even if it was 500 wolves.

The way you are describing it is not at all the way it is written though.... it says you draw a card for each differently named attack card, but you actually seem to want it to ever only draw one card each time. "For each" means "repeat this action as many times as the thing that comes after the for each". So if you revealed it to a second attack, you would draw 2 cards. If you revealed it to a third attack, you would draw 3 cards.

From your description, this is the wording you would want:

"When another player plays an Attack card, you may first reveal this from your hand, to be unaffected by it. If this is the first time this game that you have revealed a Warden in response to an attack with this same name, +1 Card."

This makes it clear that you can only get at most +1 Card when you reveal it. However, I really don't understand the point of limiting it to only work the very first time. It DOES need to be limited to stop you from revealing it repeatedly when an attack is played. But why should the card draw suddenly stop working once a player has played a particular attack before? I just don't get that part at all... this is a final-stage Traveler card; the reaction should be powerful.

Why not just limit it to 1 card per turn rather than 1 card per game? That solves the tracking issue, as well as makes it a better card. Keep in mind that writing down notes isn't actually allowed in Dominion... you would need to provide some sort of token system to track which attacks it has worked with so far. This version seems reasonable to me:

"When another player plays an Attack card, you may first reveal this from your hand, to be unaffected by it. If this is the first time this turn that you have revealed a Warden in response to an attack with this same name, +1 Card."

Finally, it should not have the Traveller type; see Champion and Teacher.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 11:23:19 pm by GendoIkari »
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