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[Robz888]

I remember when I first played Dominion--I loved Mine! It seemed so good! Too bad it usually isn't. So I've been trying to come up with a sort of better/different Mine-type card:

Emerald Mine -- Action -- $5
Trash a Treasure card or a Victory card from your hand. If you trash a Treasure card: Gain a Treasure card costing exactly $3 more, and a Victory card costing exactly $2 more. If you trash a Victory card: Gain a Treasure card costing exactly $1 more and put it into your hand.

It's similar to Mine, and it costs the same, though it's not "strictly superior," because it does not trash a Treasure card into a better Treasure card and put it into your hand. And it's certainly worse at trashing Coppers than even Mine is, because it turns them into Silvers and Estates that don't even go into your hand. Yuck.

On the plus side, it does something Mine can't do--trashes Estates into Silvers, and that Silver you do get in your hand. It also trashes Silvers into Golds and Duchies, and Golds into Provinces (AND Platinum, if it's a Colony game). So it sort of has the Treasure-gaining plus Remodel aspects of Governor, with the handicap of not being a drawer and a non-terminal the way Governor is. But Governor is an excellent card, and Mine is terrible, so maybe this could be something in between. It might be good for alternate VP strategies with Silk Road and Duke.

Thoughts?

[eHalcyon]

I actually really like this, and the name is clever.  Have you play-tested it?

[popsofctown]

Seems dirty strong on a 5/2 (No more than Witch.  But just sayin)

[Glooble]

My first thought is this is kinda situational, but pretty well balanced. Of course only playtesting will tell.

[Jack Rudd]

So I can trash a Harem to get a Platinum, a Province and a Bank? That seems, uh, powerful.

[Davio]

So I can trash a Harem to get a Platinum, a Province and a Bank? That seems, uh, powerful.

It's also very situational, which makes up for it. But Harems and Emerald Mines are fun.

[LastFootnote]

So, in many Province games, this card basically does six things. Let's examine each of them.

Trashing an Estate for a Silver in hand isn't too bad. It's like a Trading Post, but it only works on Estates (so it can't clear out your Coppers), and it only trashes Estates one at a time. In a Province game, you'd obviously never trash a Province, and you'd only trash Duchies if you got them early in the game, either from an opponent's Swindler or trashing a Silver with Emerald Mine.

The problem is that trashing a Silver with Emerald Mine seems really weak. You get a Gold and a Duchy from it (for an average money density of 1.5, less than the Silver you trashed), but you lose your Silver AND lower this turn's buying power by $2. It's kind of like a Hoard that requires an action instead of a buy to use (and costs you a Silver while reducing your buying power enough that you'll often just buy your Silver back). The seems like a losing proposition most of the time.

As you say, you'd almost never want to trash Copper. Trashing a Gold nets you a Province, so it's basically a Remodel in the endgame.

To sum up, it's a bad Trading Post early game, of dubious usefulness mid-game, and it's an expensive Remodel late game. That might be worth buying sometimes, but it's hard to say.

[O]

So, in many Province games, this card basically does six things. Let's examine each of them.

Trashing an Estate for a Silver in hand isn't too bad. It's like a Trading Post, but it only works on Estates (so it can't clear out your Coppers), and it only trashes Estates one at a time. In a Province game, you'd obviously never trash a Province, and you'd only trash Duchies if you got them early in the game, either from an opponent's Swindler or trashing a Silver with Emerald Mine.

The problem is that trashing a Silver with Emerald Mine seems really weak. You get a Gold and a Duchy from it (for an average money density of 1.5, less than the Silver you trashed), but you lose your Silver AND lower this turn's buying power by $2. It's kind of like a Hoard that requires an action instead of a buy to use (and costs you a Silver while reducing your buying power enough that you'll often just buy your Silver back). The seems like a losing proposition most of the time.

As you say, you'd almost never want to trash Copper. Trashing a Gold nets you a Province, so it's basically a Remodel in the endgame.

To sum up, it's a bad Trading Post early game, of dubious usefulness mid-game, and it's an expensive Remodel late game. That might be worth buying sometimes, but it's hard to say.

When you buy a duchy with Hoard you lower your turn's buying power by 5$.

[LastFootnote]

When you buy a duchy with Hoard you lower your turn's buying power by 5$.

Yeah, but you don't have to spend an Action on Hoard. Which hand would you rather have? Mountebank/Silver/Copper/Copper/Copper or Emerald Mine/Silver/Copper/Copper/Copper? Both hands net you a Gold. You'll have $3 to spend after playing the Emerald Mine, so you can...buy your Silver back.

EDIT: No, still better: which would you rather have? Emerald Mine/Silver/Copper/Copper/Copper or Mine/Silver/Copper/Copper/Copper? If you buy your Silver back, Emerald Mine nets you back a Gold and a Duchy. The Mine hand nets you two Gold in exchange for a Silver. That's a better comparison.

[O]

When you buy a duchy with Hoard you lower your turn's buying power by 5$.

Yeah, but you don't have to spend an Action on Hoard. Which hand would you rather have? Mountebank/Silver/Copper/Copper/Copper or Emerald Mine/Silver/Copper/Copper/Copper? Both hands net you a Gold. You'll have $3 to spend after playing the Emerald Mine, so you can...buy your Silver back.

EDIT: No, still better: which would you rather have? Emerald Mine/Silver/Copper/Copper/Copper or Mine/Silver/Copper/Copper/Copper? If you buy your Silver back, Emerald Mine nets you back a Gold and a Duchy. The Mine hand nets you two Gold in exchange for a Silver. That's a better comparison.

So... the card's worse than Mountebank (oh no!). And I'd often take a duchy-gold over 2x gold.

And what about the roughly equally likely Mine-Silver-Copper-Copper-Estate versus Emerald Mine, Where you trash estate-> silver and buy a gold versus trashing a silver for a gold and buying a 5$.

It's not strictly better than mine if you restrict yourself to trashing treasures. I see that as a good thing. With the VC trashing, its far better.

[Robz888]

Seems dirty strong on a 5/2 (No more than Witch.  But just sayin)

My first thought is this is kinda situational, but pretty well balanced. Of course only playtesting will tell.

To sum up, it's a bad Trading Post early game, of dubious usefulness mid-game, and it's an expensive Remodel late game. That might be worth buying sometimes, but it's hard to say.

Terrifically varied reactions. I have not yet playtested this card, though I am excited to try it once I get my Dominion sets back from a friend.

My sense is that the card is very situational, but it will have moments where it shines. I think it might have a place in the sort of Gold-into-Province engine that goes with Governor, and sometimes Remodel and Expand. But especially Governor, because it isn't really a problem losing Silvers to get Gold and Duchy, because the Governor is just trying to sync up with Golds, not reach $8.

The extra greening might not hurt a strong Venture deck (and indeed, turning the Silvers into Golds is actually beneficial--and since they go to the discard, you do have a chance of immediately drawing that Gold if you have a Venture in hand). And with Silk Roads and Dukes, when you actually do want to gain Estates and Duchies, I think it would be worth picking up an Emerald Mine.

I also expect it would be quite strong in Colony games. Trashing Gold into Platinum and Province looks to me like a good way to steadily gain points in the end game without hurting your money density too much.

Of course it's all speculation without playtesting. I could be completely wrong. I appreciate the feedback, though!

[LastFootnote]

When you buy a duchy with Hoard you lower your turn's buying power by 5$.

Yeah, but you don't have to spend an Action on Hoard. Which hand would you rather have? Mountebank/Silver/Copper/Copper/Copper or Emerald Mine/Silver/Copper/Copper/Copper? Both hands net you a Gold. You'll have $3 to spend after playing the Emerald Mine, so you can...buy your Silver back.

EDIT: No, still better: which would you rather have? Emerald Mine/Silver/Copper/Copper/Copper or Mine/Silver/Copper/Copper/Copper? If you buy your Silver back, Emerald Mine nets you back a Gold and a Duchy. The Mine hand nets you two Gold in exchange for a Silver. That's a better comparison.

So... the card's worse than Mountebank (oh no!). And I'd often take a duchy-gold over 2x gold.

And what about the roughly equally likely Mine-Silver-Copper-Copper-Estate versus Emerald Mine, Where you trash estate-> silver and buy a gold versus trashing a silver for a gold and buying a 5$.

It's not strictly better than mine if you restrict yourself to trashing treasures. I see that as a good thing. With the VC trashing, its far better.

You've convinced me. I think I'd probably pick one up in most BM games.

[^_^_^_^]

Would pick this up during end-mid game probably, for fast trashing to provinces. Harem <3

[Axxle]

The only thing that worries me is that sometimes the card goes into your hand, and sometimes it's going to go to your discard.  That will confuse a lot of casual players.  In fact what kinds of cards you gain are kind of confusing to grasp as well.  "Exactly 3 and exactly 2 or exactly 1... what?"

[jotheonah]

But that's the beauty of fan cards! By the time someone's playing with them, they've grasped the game pretty well, so they can be more complicated than official release cards.

That said, the walls of text on Possession and Governor are pretty darned off-putting to new players already.

[J.Co.]

It seems situational, but not that situational. Trashing an Estate for an in-hand Silver almost always would be good, especially with a 5/2 opening, as has already been mentioned.

It'd be interesting to see how well this would work with a Duke/Duchy strategy. Trash a Silver, gain a Gold and a Duke/Duchy. At some points, it would seem to have anti-synergy (you wouldn't trash the Dukes/Duchies for in-hand Golds), but that probably could be managed easily enough.

It's also be interesting to see how it'd interact with Traders (all those silvers become even more useful). Even a JoaT deck seems like it could benefit from this late in the game.

[Kirian]

This seems crazy, crazy strong, even ignoring the Harem/Bank combo (which will be rare).

Obviously, in the early game the best choice is Estate -> Silver in hand.  This is better than Upgrade, as are the other vanilla victory trashes here; Province -> Platinum in hand?  Yes please.

Now consider the "bad" trash:  Copper -> Silver/Estate.  If your average card value is less than 1, this is actually an increase in cash density.  Getting to >1 density requires buying 4 silvers or equivalents.  In the early game, trashing a copper or two this way isn't a bad deal... especially since when you draw that Estate later with Emerald Mine, it gets turned into a Silver.

Also, this all chains on itself.  If you can get one every turn or so, it takes two turns to convert a Silver into a Duchy and a Province (and a Platinum in Colony games).  If there's drawing and action doubling on the board, playing two of these in one turn converts an Estate into Duchy and Gold, or a Duchy into Province and Platinum.

With enough of these, every turn you'll be getting a Gold either by trashing Silver or trashing Duchy, then converting the Golds into Provinces.

With the right setup, this sounds like 11-12 turns to 4 Provinces.

[LastFootnote]

This seems crazy, crazy strong, even ignoring the Harem/Bank combo (which will be rare).

Obviously, in the early game the best choice is Estate -> Silver in hand.  This is better than Upgrade, as are the other vanilla victory trashes here; Province -> Platinum in hand?  Yes please.

Now consider the "bad" trash:  Copper -> Silver/Estate.  If your average card value is less than 1, this is actually an increase in cash density.  Getting to >1 density requires buying 4 silvers or equivalents.  In the early game, trashing a copper or two this way isn't a bad deal... especially since when you draw that Estate later with Emerald Mine, it gets turned into a Silver.

Also, this all chains on itself.  If you can get one every turn or so, it takes two turns to convert a Silver into a Duchy and a Province (and a Platinum in Colony games).  If there's drawing and action doubling on the board, playing two of these in one turn converts an Estate into Duchy and Gold, or a Duchy into Province and Platinum.

With enough of these, every turn you'll be getting a Gold either by trashing Silver or trashing Duchy, then converting the Golds into Provinces.

With the right setup, this sounds like 11-12 turns to 4 Provinces.

I think getting all that to line up properly would be a small miracle. It is a $5 terminal Action card.

[Kirian]

With the right setup, this sounds like 11-12 turns to 4 Provinces.

I think getting all that to line up properly would be a small miracle. It is a $5 terminal Action card.

Like I said, you need the right setup.  Crossroads would make this combo insane; TR would boost it a lot.

But even in a game without boosting cards, turning your opening Estates into Silvers, then into Golds and Duchies in the endgame, could be enormous.

[Robz888]

So I finally got my IRL Dominion sets back, and I did some playtesting of this card. It turns out to be a little stronger than I expected, especially for Big Money. FYI, here's the final text of the card:

Emerald Mine -- Action -- $5
Trash a Treasure card or a Victory card from your hand.
If it is a...
Treasure card, gain a Treasure card costing exactly $3 more, and a Victory card costing exactly $2 more
Victory card, gain a Treasure card costing exactly $1 more and put it into your hand

Emerald Mine/Big Money can get 4 Provinces and 2 Duchies in 15 turns (usually with 1 or 2 Estates remaining). I know Smithy and Envoy are a little faster, but they don't get the Duchies. So bottom line, this is a good Big Money card. Interestingly enough, it seems to do worse on a 5/2 start. I suspect this is because Emerald Mind would rather trash Silvers than Coppers, so it's actually better to wait until you have a few of them.

I tried it with buying two Emerald Mines, and I also tried it with a Spice Merchant/Silver opening. I figured Spice Merchant might be a good helper, since it clears out some of those Coppers for you and draws a bit. The result was about the same, though.

I also tried it with Silk Roads, and that was a lot of fun. I had all 8 Silk Roads, 3 Duchies, 1 Province, and 3 Estates by Turn 17.

Anyway, I'm wondering if these results suggest I should gimp it a little. I thought about adding this clause: "When you play this, each other player may reveal and set aside a Victory card. At the start of his turn, he discards it and gets + $1." Thoughts?

[Robz888]

Okay, so I just attempted to put together a good Emerald Mine engine. I intentionally picked a few Kingdom cards that I thought would work well with it. Over the course of the game, with a 4/3 start, I picked up 1 Emerald mine, 4 Crossroads, 1 Spice Merchant, and 1 Oracle. The Oracle could have been any draw card, and probably should have been some non-Attack one, because I realize if I had been playing against someone, they could buy Oracle and use it to hurt me (though I suppose Emerald Mine will respond okay-ish to an Oracle attack, because your opponent won't know exactly what to do when they draw your green cards).

I cleared 4 Provinces in 15 Turns, and also had 4 Duchies and 4 Estates. So that would be a pretty strong play. Crossroads is a huge boon to Emerald Mine. I a really torn about adding the negative side effect I contemplated in the last post.