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Author Topic: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards  (Read 1001 times)

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Gazbag

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2018, 09:03:48 am »
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They weren't saying it was overpowered though, locking people out of games and scaling poorly with multiple players aren't necessarily problems associated with power level.
Followers junks and Miltias and can totally lock you out of the game. Doesn't mean that the card is bad though. Non-Supply card can and actually are often wacky, they can get away with stuff that Kingdom cards cannot. So where better to do something dubious like a Debt attack? I have junk with a Debt attack that is offset by the junker handing out that thing being part of a split pile with a trasher on top. Asper has a Debt attack that is conditional on buying. A non-Supply Debt attack is just another way to tackle this tricky issue.

My point is that you cannot analyze a non-Supply card while ignoring the Kingdom card that grants you access to it. I'd e.g. rather worry about Marsh being too strong for the other players than about Banshee being too strong.
You are thin while they aren't so you should have an easy time to deal with some Debt attacks.

I also don't buy the scaling argument as Dominion is a game that plays differently with 2 than with 3 than with 4. Offical Attacks behave differently with different player count. Pirate Ship in a particular Kingdom might be obvious nonsense in a 2P game yet mandatory in the very same Kingdom in a 4P game.
Also, nearly all Attacks are better in multiplayer games for the very simple reason that you get attacked on average n-1 times with n being the number of players. Also, the junk pool is scaled to the number of total attacks, not the number of junk cards a player gets on average. And so on.

I'd agree though that a more moderate version of the card PAIR, e.g. something like Marsh only allowing the opponents to trash 1 card and Banshee only handing out 1 Debt might be better. But it is hard to evaluate this without playing.
The current version could lead to a too huge "Coin spread" so another solution would be to fix it at +1 Coffers. Thus the "Coin spread" (you get 1, they lose 2) is equivalent to that of Cutpurse (you get 2, they lose 1).

No, Militia can't lock you out of the game. Maybe Militia+some other combination of cards can, but just Militia can't lock you out of the game. Banshee (the version that had no limit on the debt) could lock people out of the game by giving them more Debt than it's possible for them to pay off. This is not fun and is also not a necessary part of the card, even if it had the most obscene requirement to obtain the Banshee locking people out the game is never fun and so we don't have to look at Marsh to conclude that that effect on Banshee is a bad idea. To reiterate, it isn't a case of it being too powerful, it's a case of it being un-fun and easily fixed without changing the concept of the card.

If attacks are stronger in 3+ player games anyway then how is having the non-attack part of the card get stronger with more players a good idea? Does the card really get ruined if that part is just changed to a flat +1 or 2 Coffers?
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2018, 09:17:24 am »
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To reiterate, it isn't a case of it being too powerful, it's a case of it being un-fun and easily fixed without changing the concept of the card.
I have fixed now, so this is no longer an issue.
If attacks are stronger in 3+ player games anyway then how is having the non-attack part of the card get stronger with more players a good idea? Does the card really get ruined if that part is just changed to a flat +1 or 2 Coffers?
No, of course it doesn't get ruined if it's changed to a flat rate of Coffers, however I really don't think it needs changed.
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Holunder9

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2018, 09:32:38 am »
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No, Militia can't lock you out of the game. Maybe Militia+some other combination of cards can, but just Militia can't lock you out of the game.
You mean Miltia plus Witch? Like Followers, the card I actually talked about? That card can indeed lock you out of the game or make it very unpleasant in some Kingdoms. Doesn't mean that it is broken though.

Quote
This is not fun and is also not a necessary part of the card, even if it had the most obscene requirement to obtain the Banshee locking people out the game is never fun and so we don't have to look at Marsh to conclude that that effect on Banshee is a bad idea. To reiterate, it isn't a case of it being too powerful, it's a case of it being un-fun and easily fixed without changing the concept of the card.
I think that Cultist games are unfun because it is so ridiculously overpowered and junks quicker than anything else.
I think that a 5/2 opeining in a Kingdom with e.g. Mountebank and Monastery is unfun as the game is already over before it started.
Dominion has, like every game, numerous issues and in my limited experience with two Debt attacks (Asper's Scribe and my Blackmail) I did not find them to be game-breaking.

About partial analysis, about ignoring one part of the pair, I already said everything about why you cannot do that. It'd be like looking at Mercenary and concluding that a card that draws, yields Coins, trashes and Militias is totally bonkers while ignoring the path towards that very non-Supply card.
Mercenaries would be ridiculous as a Kingdom card. But it works as a non-Supply card as you have to jump through some hoops to get it. Unconditional Debt attacks are something you shouldn't do or at least be careful about. Here the condition of handing out the Debt is that you previously helped the opponents to thin.


If attacks are stronger in 3+ player games anyway then how is having the non-attack part of the card get stronger with more players a good idea?
Tell that to Pirate Ship and Jester, why don't they just target one player? Why is Pirate Ship so risky in 2P and so safe in 4P? Why can you only gain one card with Jester in 2P yet three cards in 4P?
Why is Ambassador a net trasher in a 2P game yet a net junker in a 4P game (assuming for the sake of simplicity that every plays has an equal amount of Ambassadors)?
I don't see anybody here ripping apart such official Attack cards whose power and behaviour varies significantly with increasing player count.

Does the card really get ruined if that part is just changed to a flat +1 or 2 Coffers?
No, here I am totally with you. As I already said in the post you replied to, I think that an unconditional +1 Coffers is good as it gets rid of "Coin spread" issues
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2018, 10:24:28 am »
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Banshee: Is there any difference between giving someone 1 debt and giving them the -1 coin token? Obviously, debt stacks, but I'm wondering if Donald came up with the token because a stacking -$1 was too brutal.

Unnamed Night-Reserve: So, I really love the first part of the card. I actually think it's very different from Storyteller: with Storyteller you have to decide if losing $ is worth it while you're still drawing, but with this you have to decide if not spending $ is worth it while you're buying stuff.

Here's what I think: If it's giving you stuff on your next turn, it has to be a Duration, so the Reserve part doesn't work. Just get rid of that part; there's already Diadem. One problem might be remembering how many cards to draw next turn; not sure how difficult that would be.

Haunted Mansion: A bit weird, but cool. I also love Ghosts and wish there were an easier way to get them.

Actually receiving 2 Hexes is pretty brutal. Maybe just one? It's a whopping $6 after all.

Night Market: This is just plain awesome. Maybe it could just give +1 buy instead of +2 buys, but eh, maybe that extra buy is needed to compare favorably to Merchant Guild.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 10:28:18 am by Commodore Chuckles »
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Holunder9

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2018, 10:45:04 am »
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Pillar is strictly better than Woodcutter so it has to cost at least $4 and even at that price it seems quite strong.
I like Atrium even though it could be totally bonkers. Perhaps make it terminal?  It looks remotely similar to Horn of Plenty but has to be played at a particular moment. Sure, you normally want to play payload last but this is not always feasible so variety will not be as large as with Horn of Plenty.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2018, 12:57:46 pm »
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Yeah, I accidentally posted an older version of Pillar, but the whole thing is broken. With more than 2 players it could be hard to get a second Pillar at all. It was a neat idea, but not that great. Maybe I'll salvage these later.
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Gazbag

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2018, 02:13:52 pm »
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No, Militia can't lock you out of the game. Maybe Militia+some other combination of cards can, but just Militia can't lock you out of the game.
You mean Miltia plus Witch? Like Followers, the card I actually talked about? That card can indeed lock you out of the game or make it very unpleasant in some Kingdoms. Doesn't mean that it is broken though.

Quote
This is not fun and is also not a necessary part of the card, even if it had the most obscene requirement to obtain the Banshee locking people out the game is never fun and so we don't have to look at Marsh to conclude that that effect on Banshee is a bad idea. To reiterate, it isn't a case of it being too powerful, it's a case of it being un-fun and easily fixed without changing the concept of the card.
I think that Cultist games are unfun because it is so ridiculously overpowered and junks quicker than anything else.
I think that a 5/2 opeining in a Kingdom with e.g. Mountebank and Monastery is unfun as the game is already over before it started.
Dominion has, like every game, numerous issues and in my limited experience with two Debt attacks (Asper's Scribe and my Blackmail) I did not find them to be game-breaking.

About partial analysis, about ignoring one part of the pair, I already said everything about why you cannot do that. It'd be like looking at Mercenary and concluding that a card that draws, yields Coins, trashes and Militias is totally bonkers while ignoring the path towards that very non-Supply card.
Mercenaries would be ridiculous as a Kingdom card. But it works as a non-Supply card as you have to jump through some hoops to get it. Unconditional Debt attacks are something you shouldn't do or at least be careful about. Here the condition of handing out the Debt is that you previously helped the opponents to thin.


If attacks are stronger in 3+ player games anyway then how is having the non-attack part of the card get stronger with more players a good idea?
Tell that to Pirate Ship and Jester, why don't they just target one player? Why is Pirate Ship so risky in 2P and so safe in 4P? Why can you only gain one card with Jester in 2P yet three cards in 4P?
Why is Ambassador a net trasher in a 2P game yet a net junker in a 4P game (assuming for the sake of simplicity that every plays has an equal amount of Ambassadors)?
I don't see anybody here ripping apart such official Attack cards whose power and behaviour varies significantly with increasing player count.

Does the card really get ruined if that part is just changed to a flat +1 or 2 Coffers?
No, here I am totally with you. As I already said in the post you replied to, I think that an unconditional +1 Coffers is good as it gets rid of "Coin spread" issues

Militia+Witch or Followers don't lock you out of the game. More debt than it's possible for you to pay off or old Masquerade+Royal Carriage lock you out of the game.

Mountebank, Cultist and Followers have all got to be among the most hated cards in Dominion so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? I think all those cards suck, if someone posted them here and they weren't already official cards I'd tell them that I think they're overpowered in an opressive, boring way.

Mercenary doesn't do anything that can intrinsically lead to stalemates, it's totally different to (old) Banshee. I'll reiterate again becasause you haven't seemed to realise yet: it wasn't about powerlevel, it was an intrinsically broken mechanic.

Pirate Ship and Jester are both really weak in 2 player games (yes even Jester) that is a pretty big flaw with those cards. People tend not to vocally hate weak cards though because they tend to stifle diverse strategies less than overpowered cards. It doesn't mean they aren't heavily flawed cards though. Ambassador is also a really messed up card, it adds about 10 turns of nothing to 2 player games and makes 3+ player games these endless slogs... We should use the old cards from back when Donald X didn't know better to learn and make our designs better. Have you noticed that all of the newer expansions feature generally weaker attacks than old ones with none of these issues?
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2018, 02:48:40 pm »
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How strong would it make Banshee if it gained a Spoils if anyone didn't take debt? Just one spoils, not one per player.
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Holunder9

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2018, 06:15:43 am »
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Militia+Witch or Followers don't lock you out of the game. More debt than it's possible for you to pay off or old Masquerade+Royal Carriage lock you out of the game.
That's indeed a THEORETICAL possibility and the main reason to be careful with Debt attacks. You have to complicate it somehow (otherwise I am against it as well!) to make it work, e.g. make the Debt attack conditional like Asper did with his Scribe, tie the Debt junker into a split pile with a trasher like I did with Racketeer - City Guard - Blackmail or make the Debt attack a non-Supply card that is gained by a card that helps the opponents to thin massively like Fly-Eagle-Fly did.

It is like with Plunder. A non-terminal, unconditional VP token gainer is something that you should never ever do as a normal Kingdom card, but it magically works out if you put it into a split pile-

In PRACTICE I have not encountered a problem so far with Scribe and Bribe and Fly-Eagly-Fly has neither during his test game. This doesn't mean that Marsh-Banshee actually works, it could still be broken. But, and here our design philosophies differ, in my opinion this should be decided by playtesting experience instead of general theoretical opposition to Debt attacks.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #34 on: October 07, 2018, 05:45:48 pm »
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I just playtested this version with 2 players:
Each other player who has less than 4 debt takes 1 debt. +1 coffers per player who didn't (including you).
The card mostly worked, with the Marsh benefit being powerful but not too much, and the Banshees not taking over the game completely. The main thing I noticed was that the coffers just canceled out the debt most of the time, which I personally did not find fantastic. Next time I'm going to playtest a version that gives you a spoils if anyone didn't take debt.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 05:49:30 pm by Fly-Eagles-Fly »
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2018, 05:52:39 pm »
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I also changed the wording.
+1 Coffers
Each other player who has less than 4 debt takes 1 debt. +1 Coffers per player who didn't.

Is it clear that it means the same thing as before? I just didn't like the 'including you' part. Also, after I playtest the Spoils version I will try a flat +1 or 2 coffers to see how that plays out.
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Holunder9

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2018, 10:14:56 am »
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Fairy Grove looks fine, like a quicker-to-play version of Fool. It needs the Fate type though.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2018, 10:42:26 am »
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Fairy Grove looks fine, like a quicker-to-play version of Fool. It needs the Fate type though.
Thanks, fixed.
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Asper

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2018, 01:06:28 am »
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A lot of these are very cute. I want to note though, that Fairy Grove's wording makes it seem like you intended its "while in play" effect to offer a choice between receiving that other player's Boon or getting the next-turn-effect. That is not the case. Perhaps you have it discarded to make sure it can't be used to receive several Boons outside your turn, fully aware the next-turn-effect will persist. But it misleads the player into thinking this wasn't the place. Perhaps do the Renaissance thing and write "(you will still get the next-turn-effect)"?

Asper

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2018, 01:15:10 am »
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Holunder9, I appreciate your mention of my Scribe on the subject of Debt attacks. I would just like to say, I specifically made it so that you don't get Debt if you are already overwhelmed by it. To get debt, you need to be debt-free, and actually buy something.

I have no strong opinion on whether split piles legitimate debt attacks (they certainly push them back to later parts of the game), but Plunder doesn't strike me as outlandish design that needs to be on a split pile. Like Monument, it is so much weaker if you don't actually intend to spend its coins that it falls flat as a strategy.

Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2018, 12:04:19 pm »
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So I playtested Haunted Mansion yesterday, and it worked well. My opponent did not buy it, but I used it to get 4 ghosts. I decided not to use it anymore after that, because I was drawing my deck every turn through a combination of City Quarter, Scheme, and Wild Hunt. And also Ghost of course. And Lurker so my Ghosts would hit something every time. My opponent did not like that game very much.  :)
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Holunder9

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2018, 05:59:02 pm »
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Craftsmen Village is too good, just compare it to Sculptor. It also seems to be doing too much so I'd either cut the handgaining or make it terminal.

Ice Sculpture looks nice but probably has to cost $6 or $8. In the opening freezing is like pseudotrashing, in the endgame freezing is like pseudo-Island-ing and you get a Hireling effect on top of it. Perhaps just do the freezing and make it a cheap Project such that you get the pseudotrashing earlier in the game?
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Kudasai

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2018, 04:04:10 am »
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A lot of these are very cute. I want to note though, that Fairy Grove's wording makes it seem like you intended its "while in play" effect to offer a choice between receiving that other player's Boon or getting the next-turn-effect. That is not the case. Perhaps you have it discarded to make sure it can't be used to receive several Boons outside your turn, fully aware the next-turn-effect will persist. But it misleads the player into thinking this wasn't the place. Perhaps do the Renaissance thing and write "(you will still get the next-turn-effect)"?

If the intention is to be one or the other, Fly-Eagles-Fly could word it as such:

Now and at the start of your next turn (if this is still in play): ...

Or something like this.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2018, 07:33:23 am »
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A lot of these are very cute. I want to note though, that Fairy Grove's wording makes it seem like you intended its "while in play" effect to offer a choice between receiving that other player's Boon or getting the next-turn-effect. That is not the case. Perhaps you have it discarded to make sure it can't be used to receive several Boons outside your turn, fully aware the next-turn-effect will persist. But it misleads the player into thinking this wasn't the place. Perhaps do the Renaissance thing and write "(you will still get the next-turn-effect)"?

If the intention is to be one or the other, Fly-Eagles-Fly could word it as such:

Now and at the start of your next turn (if this is still in play): ...

Or something like this.
Yes, that's the wording I was looking for. Thanks.
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Kudasai

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2018, 03:34:42 pm »
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A lot of these are very cute. I want to note though, that Fairy Grove's wording makes it seem like you intended its "while in play" effect to offer a choice between receiving that other player's Boon or getting the next-turn-effect. That is not the case. Perhaps you have it discarded to make sure it can't be used to receive several Boons outside your turn, fully aware the next-turn-effect will persist. But it misleads the player into thinking this wasn't the place. Perhaps do the Renaissance thing and write "(you will still get the next-turn-effect)"?

If the intention is to be one or the other, Fly-Eagles-Fly could word it as such:

Now and at the start of your next turn (if this is still in play): ...

Or something like this.
Yes, that's the wording I was looking for. Thanks.

No problem. Still on the topic of Fairy Grove. The bottom part might need to specify that it's being discarded from play to avoid any confusion.
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Holunder9

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #45 on: October 16, 2018, 02:46:28 am »
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I like the new Ice Sculpture. Perhaps it doesn't need the Journey token but being able to freeze a card every turn might be too good.
Deposit looks simple and good.
Only providing VPs for differently n amed Victory cards is a neat design. I fear that Pavilion could still be too good, especially in multiplayer games, but it is a stop card for $6 that only yields some VPs. I doubt that you could make something abusive out of it like with Goons or Groundskeeper.
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Asper

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #46 on: October 16, 2018, 03:20:05 am »
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A lot of these are very cute. I want to note though, that Fairy Grove's wording makes it seem like you intended its "while in play" effect to offer a choice between receiving that other player's Boon or getting the next-turn-effect. That is not the case. Perhaps you have it discarded to make sure it can't be used to receive several Boons outside your turn, fully aware the next-turn-effect will persist. But it misleads the player into thinking this wasn't the place. Perhaps do the Renaissance thing and write "(you will still get the next-turn-effect)"?

If the intention is to be one or the other, Fly-Eagles-Fly could word it as such:

Now and at the start of your next turn (if this is still in play): ...

Or something like this.
It's a bit like the chicken-and-egg problem. If you discard your card this turn, it's not in play next turn, so you did right, because it won't do anything next turn. If you keep it out, it does something, so you did right to keep it out.
Not saying you need to break your head over this, but perhaps it can be avoided.

Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #47 on: October 16, 2018, 10:09:22 am »
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The idea behind Fairy Grove was a card that gave you two Boons: One when you played it and one between the end of that turn and the start of your next turn. That's also where the name came from; Pixie gives you a Boon twice, Fairy grove gives you 2 Boons. Similar, but different. Also, Sacred Grove: You get a Boon during someone else's turn. Actually the opposite of Sacred Grove, but whatever.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #48 on: October 16, 2018, 10:12:00 am »
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Only providing VPs for differently named Victory cards is a neat design. I fear that Pavilion could still be too good, especially in multiplayer games, but it is a stop card for $6 that only yields some VPs. I doubt that you could make something abusive out of it like with Goons or Groundskeeper.
The thing with Pavilion is that it's only good near the end of the game, which might prove to make it rather weak. For it to be good, your opponents need to be buying Victory cards, and you need to have Victory cards. It just needs playtesting. I really need to play more Dominion :D.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #49 on: October 16, 2018, 05:56:49 pm »
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Pirate Cove/Galleon: The main problem is, how often will Galleon actually be uncovered? Pirate Cove looks like something you rarely want even one of on its own; to be worth it you'll have to want the Spoils more than your opponent and have a deck that can support a bunch of terminal Silvers. Patrician and Settlers are weak top cards but they're at least cantrips. The interaction with Galleon looks strong, but would filling your deck with terminal Silvers first be worth it?
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