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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« on: October 05, 2018, 12:35:31 pm »
+5

Hello everyone, I'm pretty new here. I've hung around on the forum for about a year. I've started to collect some card ideas, and decided to put them up here to see how good they are. I have not been able to do much playtesting with them yet, so they might be really bad in practice. Also, I have all the sets except for Seaside, Alchemy, and Prosperity, so I may accidentally make cards that compare unfavorably with those sets, though I am familiar with many if not most of their cards.

The main themes so far are non-attack player interaction and doing bad things to yourself (or good things for other people) for something good.

Click to enlargen, or scroll downward.
                                 

Split Piles:
                     

Extra Cards:
                           


Other Card-Shaped Things:
            

10/5


Originally an entry into a weekly design contest and could only gain Ghosts for 2 Hexes and was worth 1VP. Then I made it worth 1VP for every Ghost you had, but it was still a dead card after six total plays, so I made it let you gain any Spirit.




Shortly after making this I saw Holunder9's Night Market, which is also a Night-Reserve, and the picture is almost identical!




Marsh comes with with Heirloom Compass. It used to be Medallion, but you need a Compass to find your way out of the Marsh, you know there's Will-o'-Wisps trying to lead you away. Also Banshees, a new Night-Spirit-Attack.





Copper-Moat. Not too complicated. And it's nice to have a protection against this:




I wanted a debt attack, but to not be too mean I paired it with Medallion (though if it's a spirit you can still get it with Exorcist with no defenses). Also I made it better for the player who played it when other people blocked it because Medallion could often render the attack useless.





       

I made these for this contest: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18987.125


Added 10/7


Added 10/8



Added 10/9



Added 10/11. Credit to Gazbag for the freezing mechanic, and pacovf came up with the freeze wording, I think. See here for Dominion Ice Age, which I think was when they were introduced:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=17996.0

   




Added 10/15


I made this for a challenge here:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18987.225


This may or may not be broken.

Split Pile:
   



   
Added 10/16

                     
Added 10/17
Here's the first draft of a Traveller line. It tells a little story; Someone gets captured, the get trained, they become a full Barbarian warrior, then either be Converted and become a Monk, or be promoted to Commander and raid towns and carry off Villagers, then become King.

All of my cards are made from Violet CLM's card generator.
Any thoughts and comments will be very appreciated.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2018, 08:41:41 am by Fly-Eagles-Fly »
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Holunder9

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2018, 02:03:28 pm »
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First of all, in my opinion these are overall fantastic cards.

I like the VP per Ghost aprt and would price Haunted Mansion at $6.

Night Market has similarities to Merchant Guild and Bridge Troll, i.e. the strength of the card explodes with increasing number of copies in play. As it is non-terminal it could be too easy to set up but only testing can reveal that for certain. Overall a great card.

I like Marsh-Medallion-Banshee. Banshee looks harsh but Marsh's gift is so good that it might overcompensate for that. Perhaps just trash one card? Seems tricky to balance.
On a sidenote, Medallion is similar to my Bribe which is an Heirloom outtake.

Field is tricky. When you play it from a normal hand of 5 it self-Militias for +3 Coffers which is slightly weakish for a $4 but an interesting concept in and of itself. Now the Victory part plays a bit like Gathering cards with the Duchy self-junking as bootstrap. Seems very difficult to judge.
While this is unlikely to be a huge issue it deserves to be mentioned that there might be some loop-combos with Lurker and Rogue.

I don't think that the Night-(Duration?)-Reserve card is different enough from Storyteller to be worthwhile. Despit the benefits that Duration draw has I also fear that it might often be weaker. On the other hand being able to convert Coins into Cards at the end of your turn has distinct advantages over doing it during the middle of the turn so perhaps I am seriously underestimating this.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2018, 03:08:24 pm »
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First of all, in my opinion these are overall fantastic cards.

I like the VP per Ghost aprt and would price Haunted Mansion at $6.

Night Market has similarities to Merchant Guild and Bridge Troll, i.e. the strength of the card explodes with increasing number of copies in play. As it is non-terminal it could be too easy to set up but only testing can reveal that for certain. Overall a great card.

I like Marsh-Medallion-Banshee. Banshee looks harsh but Marsh's gift is so good that it might overcompensate for that. Perhaps just trash one card? Seems tricky to balance.
On a sidenote, Medallion is similar to my Bribe which is an Heirloom outtake.

Field is tricky. When you play it from a normal hand of 5 it self-Militias for +3 Coffers which is slightly weakish for a $4 but an interesting concept in and of itself. Now the Victory part plays a bit like Gathering cards with the Duchy self-junking as bootstrap. Seems very difficult to judge.
While this is unlikely to be a huge issue it deserves to be mentioned that there might be some loop-combos with Lurker and Rogue.

I don't think that the Night-(Duration?)-Reserve card is different enough from Storyteller to be worthwhile. Despit the benefits that Duration draw has I also fear that it might often be weaker. On the other hand being able to convert Coins into Cards at the end of your turn has distinct advantages over doing it during the middle of the turn so perhaps I am seriously underestimating this.

Thank you for your reply. I changed Haunted Mansion to $6. I might keep the bottom half of the last card and use it with a different top, as it is very similar to Storyteller. I hope to be able to playtest some of these cards today and see how they work for real.
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Gubump

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2018, 05:25:18 pm »
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Two major problems with Banshee:
1. There's a reason that no official Attack card both stacks infinitely and directly harms opponents' turns. Play enough Banshees, and you lock everybody else out of the game.
2. If you only have one opponent, the Banshee can get you two Coffers at most, but if you're playing a 4-player game, it can give you up to 4 Coffers, which means it scales poorly with the number of players. Simply the number of players should not influence how powerful a card is, but player count definitely matters for Banshee.
I would recommend reading rinkwork's fan card creation guide if you haven't. It's a huge help if you want to avoid falling into the common pitfalls of fan card creation.
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Holunder9

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2018, 05:31:05 pm »
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Two major problems with Banshee:
1. There's a reason that no official Attack card both stacks infinitely and directly harms opponents' turns. Play enough Banshees, and you lock everybody else out of the game.
You are aware that Marsh helps the opponents, right?


Quote
2. If you only have one opponent, the Banshee can get you two Coffers at most, but if you're playing a 4-player game, it can give you up to 4 Coffers, which means it scales poorly with the number of players. Simply the number of players should not influence how powerful a card is, but player count definitely matters for Banshee.
Hm, let's take Witch. In a 2P game you end up with an average of 5 Curses, in a 3P game with an average of 7 Curses and in a 4P game with an average of 8. Doesn't seem to scale so well.
Hm, let's take Pirate Ship. Wow, with an additional player your chances to hit something are significantly increased. Doesn't seem to scale so well.

Seriously, being invariant to player count is a good guideline. As long as you don't mind ignoring it.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 05:36:21 pm by Holunder9 »
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2018, 05:35:24 pm »
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I think it's good that Banshee's Coffer benefit can scale with player count, because more players means more Banshees played against you. Although, maybe I should not have it be a Night card, since they're too easy to stack. I'll playtest it soon and adjust accordingly. Thanks for the input. If I would change the attack, I would maybe make it only affect players with less than 5 debt.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 05:36:59 pm by Fly-Eagles-Fly »
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Holunder9

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2018, 05:36:25 pm »
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This is far too weak. Even if it just self-junked one Ruins it would be weaker than Cursed Gold which is a card you sometimes never play. Even with good trashing self-junking often boils down to the play effect of an anti-Laboratory (you have to draw into the card once before you trash it, assuming that no out-of-hand trashers like Sentry or Lookout are present).
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2018, 05:38:07 pm »
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This is far too weak. Even if it just self-junked one Ruins it would be weaker than Cursed Gold which is a card you sometimes never play. Even with good trashing self-junking often boils down to the play effect of an anti-Laboratory (you have to draw into the card once before you trash it, assuming that no out-of-hand trashers like Sentry or Lookout are present).

Thanks. What about gain 1 ruins and costs 3? Or is one of those enough?
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Holunder9

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2018, 05:46:45 pm »
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Curse Gold at least becomes a Gold if the Curse pile is empty whereas this suicides once two junk piles are empty. So frankly, I don't think that a Kingdom card that is weaker than Cursed Gold will often be bought.
I'd have to check but if memory serves there is a $2 Treasure among my printed card (pre Nocturne) that is a Copper and +$4 if you choose to gain or discard a Curse.

« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 05:49:03 pm by Holunder9 »
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2018, 05:48:00 pm »
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Thanks. What about gain 1 ruins and costs 3? Or is one of those enough?

Even then I fear it would be far too uninteresting compared to Cursed Gold and possibly Death Cart.
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If you have a fan card you want to be created, just post about it here! I'd love to take a look at it.

Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2018, 05:55:57 pm »
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Alright then, I'll scrap that one. My original idea was this:

$5 Goblin Bank
$2
Each other player gains a Ruins.

Can't remember exactly why I changed it. What do you think about this?
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Holunder9

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2018, 06:06:25 pm »
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Looks OKish. You always gotta be careful with non-terminal Attacks, there are often caveats. Urchin is weak, Familiar is hard to get, Vampire exchanges itself, Werewolf is pretty expensive for the Attack and if we focus on the Treasures, Relic doesn't stack and Idol needs another Idol to hit.

This feels a bit bland in comparison.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2018, 06:08:52 pm »
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Ok. It had been a much earlier idea.
On the topic of Banshee, how many do you think would be in the pile? As far as the other Spirits there are 12 Will-o'-Wisps, 13 Imps, and 6 Ghosts. Maybe 10?
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Gubump

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2018, 08:48:13 pm »
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Two major problems with Banshee:
1. There's a reason that no official Attack card both stacks infinitely and directly harms opponents' turns. Play enough Banshees, and you lock everybody else out of the game.
You are aware that Marsh helps the opponents, right?

Did I mention Marsh? No, I did not. Banshee is the card I'm talking about.

Quote
Quote
2. If you only have one opponent, the Banshee can get you two Coffers at most, but if you're playing a 4-player game, it can give you up to 4 Coffers, which means it scales poorly with the number of players. Simply the number of players should not influence how powerful a card is, but player count definitely matters for Banshee.
Hm, let's take Witch. In a 2P game you end up with an average of 5 Curses, in a 3P game with an average of 7 Curses and in a 4P game with an average of 8. Doesn't seem to scale so well.
Hm, let's take Pirate Ship. Wow, with an additional player your chances to hit something are significantly increased. Doesn't seem to scale so well.

Seriously, being invariant to player count is a good guideline. As long as you don't mind ignoring it.

1. Witch:
Sure, you can give out more curses in games with more players, but you have to play it more, and give out the same curses per person each time you play it.
2. Pirate Ship:
Banshee is like if Pirate Ship let you put a Coin token on your Pirate Ship mat for each player who trashed a treasure, rather than getting one if any player trashes a treasure. And, like Witch, slightly raising the hit chance with more players is significantly less severe than both raising the hit chance AND increasing the reward, which is what Banshee does.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2018, 09:10:07 pm »
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How about this new Banshee:

Imagine this scenario (4 players):
Player 1 has 3 debt, Player 2 has 0 debt and Medallion in hand, Player 3 has 2 debt, and Player 4 plays two Banshees.
Players 1 and 3 takes 1 debt, Player 2 take 0 debt, Player 4 gets +2 coffers.
Players 1 and 2 take 0 debt, Player 3 takes 1 debt, Player 4 gets +3 coffers.
Net totals: Player 1 +1 debt, Player 2 +0 debt, Player 3 +2 debt, Player +5 coffers.
If anything the non-attack part is too strong now in my opinion.

Since for you to gain a Banshee you need to let other players trash, I think this is rather balanced, certainly no worse than cards like Torturer, Swindler, Possession, etc.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 09:12:50 pm by Fly-Eagles-Fly »
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Gubump

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2018, 01:13:07 am »
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How about this new Banshee:

Imagine this scenario (4 players):
Player 1 has 3 debt, Player 2 has 0 debt and Medallion in hand, Player 3 has 2 debt, and Player 4 plays two Banshees.
Players 1 and 3 takes 1 debt, Player 2 take 0 debt, Player 4 gets +2 coffers.
Players 1 and 2 take 0 debt, Player 3 takes 1 debt, Player 4 gets +3 coffers.
Net totals: Player 1 +1 debt, Player 2 +0 debt, Player 3 +2 debt, Player +5 coffers.
If anything the non-attack part is too strong now in my opinion.

Since for you to gain a Banshee you need to let other players trash, I think this is rather balanced, certainly no worse than cards like Torturer, Swindler, Possession, etc.

That only fixes the first problem, but it doesn't solve the second, and in fact just exacerbates it since it's easier to trigger +Coffers now. Here's what I would recommend:

+1 Coffers
Each other player who has less than 4 Debt takes 1 Debt. If anybody revealed a Medallion to this, +2 Coffers.
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Holunder9

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2018, 03:00:17 am »
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Two major problems with Banshee:
1. There's a reason that no official Attack card both stacks infinitely and directly harms opponents' turns. Play enough Banshees, and you lock everybody else out of the game.
You are aware that Marsh helps the opponents, right?

Did I mention Marsh? No, I did not. Banshee is the card I'm talking about.
Ignoring Marsh while talking about Banshee being supposedly overpowered is like ignoring Urchin while talking about Mercenary being supposedly overpowered.
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Gazbag

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2018, 08:18:21 am »
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Two major problems with Banshee:
1. There's a reason that no official Attack card both stacks infinitely and directly harms opponents' turns. Play enough Banshees, and you lock everybody else out of the game.
You are aware that Marsh helps the opponents, right?

Did I mention Marsh? No, I did not. Banshee is the card I'm talking about.
Ignoring Marsh while talking about Banshee being supposedly overpowered is like ignoring Urchin while talking about Mercenary being supposedly overpowered.

They weren't saying it was overpowered though, locking people out of games and scaling poorly with multiple players aren't necessarily problems associated with power level.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2018, 08:20:44 am »
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How about this new Banshee:

Imagine this scenario (4 players):
Player 1 has 3 debt, Player 2 has 0 debt and Medallion in hand, Player 3 has 2 debt, and Player 4 plays two Banshees.
Players 1 and 3 takes 1 debt, Player 2 take 0 debt, Player 4 gets +2 coffers.
Players 1 and 2 take 0 debt, Player 3 takes 1 debt, Player 4 gets +3 coffers.
Net totals: Player 1 +1 debt, Player 2 +0 debt, Player 3 +2 debt, Player +5 coffers.
If anything the non-attack part is too strong now in my opinion.

Since for you to gain a Banshee you need to let other players trash, I think this is rather balanced, certainly no worse than cards like Torturer, Swindler, Possession, etc.

That only fixes the first problem, but it doesn't solve the second, and in fact just exacerbates it since it's easier to trigger +Coffers now. Here's what I would recommend:

+1 Coffers
Each other player who has less than 4 Debt takes 1 Debt. If anybody revealed a Medallion to this, +2 Coffers.

I think this is a case where it would be nice to have different versions for different numbers of players. Your version is stronger than mine at 2 players (which is what I play most incidentally) while mine could give up to 6 Coffers per play in a six player game. I think I'll keep it my newer way, for now at least.
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Holunder9

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2018, 08:44:42 am »
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They weren't saying it was overpowered though, locking people out of games and scaling poorly with multiple players aren't necessarily problems associated with power level.
Followers junks and Miltias and can totally lock you out of the game. Doesn't mean that the card is bad though. Non-Supply card can and actually are often wacky, they can get away with stuff that Kingdom cards cannot. So where better to do something dubious like a Debt attack? I have junk with a Debt attack that is offset by the junker handing out that thing being part of a split pile with a trasher on top. Asper has a Debt attack that is conditional on buying. A non-Supply Debt attack is just another way to tackle this tricky issue.

My point is that you cannot analyze a non-Supply card while ignoring the Kingdom card that grants you access to it. I'd e.g. rather worry about Marsh being too strong for the other players than about Banshee being too strong.
You are thin while they aren't so you should have an easy time to deal with some Debt attacks.

I also don't buy the scaling argument as Dominion is a game that plays differently with 2 than with 3 than with 4. Offical Attacks behave differently with different player count. Pirate Ship in a particular Kingdom might be obvious nonsense in a 2P game yet mandatory in the very same Kingdom in a 4P game.
Also, nearly all Attacks are better in multiplayer games for the very simple reason that you get attacked on average n-1 times with n being the number of players. Also, the junk pool is scaled to the number of total attacks, not the number of junk cards a player gets on average. And so on.

I'd agree though that a more moderate version of the card PAIR, e.g. something like Marsh only allowing the opponents to trash 1 card and Banshee only handing out 1 Debt might be better. But it is hard to evaluate this without playing.
The current version could lead to a too huge "Coin spread" so another solution would be to fix it at +1 Coffers. Thus the "Coin spread" (you get 1, they lose 2) is equivalent to that of Cutpurse (you get 2, they lose 1).
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 08:47:57 am by Holunder9 »
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2018, 08:47:32 am »
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When I playtested yesterday in a three player game in which the players were Me, Myself and I Where I Messenger'd everyone a Marsh because I wanted to trash my cards :). After a while people would play Marsh and no one would trash because their hand was too good. Reflecting more I think I'll actually leave it at the original for now because the Marsh effect is really good.
The other question is do I make it a Spirit, or just another card? How bad would it be to get one from Exorcist, and would I change the price? I think I should change it to match Ghost.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2018, 08:48:46 am »
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We also kept deciding to play Marsh instead of Hermit, because we didn't particularly need Madmen and we really wanted Banshees, even though it was great for the other players. Overall it was pretty well balanced for the first game.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2018, 08:51:21 am »
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Here is the version I'm going with for now:
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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2018, 08:51:36 am »
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When I playtested yesterday in a three player game in which the players were Me, Myself and I Where I Messenger'd everyone a Marsh because I wanted to trash my cards :). After a while people would play Marsh and no one would trash because their hand was too good. Reflecting more I think I'll actually leave it at the original for now because the Marsh effect is really good.
The other question is do I make it a Spirit, or just another card? How bad would it be to get one from Exorcist, and would I change the price? I think I should change it to match Ghost.
Yeah, this doesn't surprise me as trashing 2 cards is incredibly strong.
If you make it a Spirit you only create the Exorcist interaction. If you want that I think that you can get away with either price. Keep in mind that trashing $4s is not a big thing whereas trashing a $5 often is so there is an equivalent huge jump in Spirit costs from 3 to 4.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2018, 09:01:30 am »
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I think it's also worth noting that the trashing from Marsh makes it more likely you have a Medallion in hand.
Anyway just posted a new split pile, Pillar and Atrium.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 09:02:31 am by Fly-Eagles-Fly »
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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2018, 09:03:48 am »
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They weren't saying it was overpowered though, locking people out of games and scaling poorly with multiple players aren't necessarily problems associated with power level.
Followers junks and Miltias and can totally lock you out of the game. Doesn't mean that the card is bad though. Non-Supply card can and actually are often wacky, they can get away with stuff that Kingdom cards cannot. So where better to do something dubious like a Debt attack? I have junk with a Debt attack that is offset by the junker handing out that thing being part of a split pile with a trasher on top. Asper has a Debt attack that is conditional on buying. A non-Supply Debt attack is just another way to tackle this tricky issue.

My point is that you cannot analyze a non-Supply card while ignoring the Kingdom card that grants you access to it. I'd e.g. rather worry about Marsh being too strong for the other players than about Banshee being too strong.
You are thin while they aren't so you should have an easy time to deal with some Debt attacks.

I also don't buy the scaling argument as Dominion is a game that plays differently with 2 than with 3 than with 4. Offical Attacks behave differently with different player count. Pirate Ship in a particular Kingdom might be obvious nonsense in a 2P game yet mandatory in the very same Kingdom in a 4P game.
Also, nearly all Attacks are better in multiplayer games for the very simple reason that you get attacked on average n-1 times with n being the number of players. Also, the junk pool is scaled to the number of total attacks, not the number of junk cards a player gets on average. And so on.

I'd agree though that a more moderate version of the card PAIR, e.g. something like Marsh only allowing the opponents to trash 1 card and Banshee only handing out 1 Debt might be better. But it is hard to evaluate this without playing.
The current version could lead to a too huge "Coin spread" so another solution would be to fix it at +1 Coffers. Thus the "Coin spread" (you get 1, they lose 2) is equivalent to that of Cutpurse (you get 2, they lose 1).

No, Militia can't lock you out of the game. Maybe Militia+some other combination of cards can, but just Militia can't lock you out of the game. Banshee (the version that had no limit on the debt) could lock people out of the game by giving them more Debt than it's possible for them to pay off. This is not fun and is also not a necessary part of the card, even if it had the most obscene requirement to obtain the Banshee locking people out the game is never fun and so we don't have to look at Marsh to conclude that that effect on Banshee is a bad idea. To reiterate, it isn't a case of it being too powerful, it's a case of it being un-fun and easily fixed without changing the concept of the card.

If attacks are stronger in 3+ player games anyway then how is having the non-attack part of the card get stronger with more players a good idea? Does the card really get ruined if that part is just changed to a flat +1 or 2 Coffers?
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2018, 09:17:24 am »
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To reiterate, it isn't a case of it being too powerful, it's a case of it being un-fun and easily fixed without changing the concept of the card.
I have fixed now, so this is no longer an issue.
If attacks are stronger in 3+ player games anyway then how is having the non-attack part of the card get stronger with more players a good idea? Does the card really get ruined if that part is just changed to a flat +1 or 2 Coffers?
No, of course it doesn't get ruined if it's changed to a flat rate of Coffers, however I really don't think it needs changed.
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Holunder9

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2018, 09:32:38 am »
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No, Militia can't lock you out of the game. Maybe Militia+some other combination of cards can, but just Militia can't lock you out of the game.
You mean Miltia plus Witch? Like Followers, the card I actually talked about? That card can indeed lock you out of the game or make it very unpleasant in some Kingdoms. Doesn't mean that it is broken though.

Quote
This is not fun and is also not a necessary part of the card, even if it had the most obscene requirement to obtain the Banshee locking people out the game is never fun and so we don't have to look at Marsh to conclude that that effect on Banshee is a bad idea. To reiterate, it isn't a case of it being too powerful, it's a case of it being un-fun and easily fixed without changing the concept of the card.
I think that Cultist games are unfun because it is so ridiculously overpowered and junks quicker than anything else.
I think that a 5/2 opeining in a Kingdom with e.g. Mountebank and Monastery is unfun as the game is already over before it started.
Dominion has, like every game, numerous issues and in my limited experience with two Debt attacks (Asper's Scribe and my Blackmail) I did not find them to be game-breaking.

About partial analysis, about ignoring one part of the pair, I already said everything about why you cannot do that. It'd be like looking at Mercenary and concluding that a card that draws, yields Coins, trashes and Militias is totally bonkers while ignoring the path towards that very non-Supply card.
Mercenaries would be ridiculous as a Kingdom card. But it works as a non-Supply card as you have to jump through some hoops to get it. Unconditional Debt attacks are something you shouldn't do or at least be careful about. Here the condition of handing out the Debt is that you previously helped the opponents to thin.


If attacks are stronger in 3+ player games anyway then how is having the non-attack part of the card get stronger with more players a good idea?
Tell that to Pirate Ship and Jester, why don't they just target one player? Why is Pirate Ship so risky in 2P and so safe in 4P? Why can you only gain one card with Jester in 2P yet three cards in 4P?
Why is Ambassador a net trasher in a 2P game yet a net junker in a 4P game (assuming for the sake of simplicity that every plays has an equal amount of Ambassadors)?
I don't see anybody here ripping apart such official Attack cards whose power and behaviour varies significantly with increasing player count.

Does the card really get ruined if that part is just changed to a flat +1 or 2 Coffers?
No, here I am totally with you. As I already said in the post you replied to, I think that an unconditional +1 Coffers is good as it gets rid of "Coin spread" issues
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2018, 10:24:28 am »
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Banshee: Is there any difference between giving someone 1 debt and giving them the -1 coin token? Obviously, debt stacks, but I'm wondering if Donald came up with the token because a stacking -$1 was too brutal.

Unnamed Night-Reserve: So, I really love the first part of the card. I actually think it's very different from Storyteller: with Storyteller you have to decide if losing $ is worth it while you're still drawing, but with this you have to decide if not spending $ is worth it while you're buying stuff.

Here's what I think: If it's giving you stuff on your next turn, it has to be a Duration, so the Reserve part doesn't work. Just get rid of that part; there's already Diadem. One problem might be remembering how many cards to draw next turn; not sure how difficult that would be.

Haunted Mansion: A bit weird, but cool. I also love Ghosts and wish there were an easier way to get them.

Actually receiving 2 Hexes is pretty brutal. Maybe just one? It's a whopping $6 after all.

Night Market: This is just plain awesome. Maybe it could just give +1 buy instead of +2 buys, but eh, maybe that extra buy is needed to compare favorably to Merchant Guild.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 10:28:18 am by Commodore Chuckles »
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Holunder9

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2018, 10:45:04 am »
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Pillar is strictly better than Woodcutter so it has to cost at least $4 and even at that price it seems quite strong.
I like Atrium even though it could be totally bonkers. Perhaps make it terminal?  It looks remotely similar to Horn of Plenty but has to be played at a particular moment. Sure, you normally want to play payload last but this is not always feasible so variety will not be as large as with Horn of Plenty.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2018, 12:57:46 pm »
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Yeah, I accidentally posted an older version of Pillar, but the whole thing is broken. With more than 2 players it could be hard to get a second Pillar at all. It was a neat idea, but not that great. Maybe I'll salvage these later.
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Gazbag

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2018, 02:13:52 pm »
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No, Militia can't lock you out of the game. Maybe Militia+some other combination of cards can, but just Militia can't lock you out of the game.
You mean Miltia plus Witch? Like Followers, the card I actually talked about? That card can indeed lock you out of the game or make it very unpleasant in some Kingdoms. Doesn't mean that it is broken though.

Quote
This is not fun and is also not a necessary part of the card, even if it had the most obscene requirement to obtain the Banshee locking people out the game is never fun and so we don't have to look at Marsh to conclude that that effect on Banshee is a bad idea. To reiterate, it isn't a case of it being too powerful, it's a case of it being un-fun and easily fixed without changing the concept of the card.
I think that Cultist games are unfun because it is so ridiculously overpowered and junks quicker than anything else.
I think that a 5/2 opeining in a Kingdom with e.g. Mountebank and Monastery is unfun as the game is already over before it started.
Dominion has, like every game, numerous issues and in my limited experience with two Debt attacks (Asper's Scribe and my Blackmail) I did not find them to be game-breaking.

About partial analysis, about ignoring one part of the pair, I already said everything about why you cannot do that. It'd be like looking at Mercenary and concluding that a card that draws, yields Coins, trashes and Militias is totally bonkers while ignoring the path towards that very non-Supply card.
Mercenaries would be ridiculous as a Kingdom card. But it works as a non-Supply card as you have to jump through some hoops to get it. Unconditional Debt attacks are something you shouldn't do or at least be careful about. Here the condition of handing out the Debt is that you previously helped the opponents to thin.


If attacks are stronger in 3+ player games anyway then how is having the non-attack part of the card get stronger with more players a good idea?
Tell that to Pirate Ship and Jester, why don't they just target one player? Why is Pirate Ship so risky in 2P and so safe in 4P? Why can you only gain one card with Jester in 2P yet three cards in 4P?
Why is Ambassador a net trasher in a 2P game yet a net junker in a 4P game (assuming for the sake of simplicity that every plays has an equal amount of Ambassadors)?
I don't see anybody here ripping apart such official Attack cards whose power and behaviour varies significantly with increasing player count.

Does the card really get ruined if that part is just changed to a flat +1 or 2 Coffers?
No, here I am totally with you. As I already said in the post you replied to, I think that an unconditional +1 Coffers is good as it gets rid of "Coin spread" issues

Militia+Witch or Followers don't lock you out of the game. More debt than it's possible for you to pay off or old Masquerade+Royal Carriage lock you out of the game.

Mountebank, Cultist and Followers have all got to be among the most hated cards in Dominion so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? I think all those cards suck, if someone posted them here and they weren't already official cards I'd tell them that I think they're overpowered in an opressive, boring way.

Mercenary doesn't do anything that can intrinsically lead to stalemates, it's totally different to (old) Banshee. I'll reiterate again becasause you haven't seemed to realise yet: it wasn't about powerlevel, it was an intrinsically broken mechanic.

Pirate Ship and Jester are both really weak in 2 player games (yes even Jester) that is a pretty big flaw with those cards. People tend not to vocally hate weak cards though because they tend to stifle diverse strategies less than overpowered cards. It doesn't mean they aren't heavily flawed cards though. Ambassador is also a really messed up card, it adds about 10 turns of nothing to 2 player games and makes 3+ player games these endless slogs... We should use the old cards from back when Donald X didn't know better to learn and make our designs better. Have you noticed that all of the newer expansions feature generally weaker attacks than old ones with none of these issues?
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2018, 02:48:40 pm »
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How strong would it make Banshee if it gained a Spoils if anyone didn't take debt? Just one spoils, not one per player.
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Holunder9

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2018, 06:15:43 am »
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Militia+Witch or Followers don't lock you out of the game. More debt than it's possible for you to pay off or old Masquerade+Royal Carriage lock you out of the game.
That's indeed a THEORETICAL possibility and the main reason to be careful with Debt attacks. You have to complicate it somehow (otherwise I am against it as well!) to make it work, e.g. make the Debt attack conditional like Asper did with his Scribe, tie the Debt junker into a split pile with a trasher like I did with Racketeer - City Guard - Blackmail or make the Debt attack a non-Supply card that is gained by a card that helps the opponents to thin massively like Fly-Eagle-Fly did.

It is like with Plunder. A non-terminal, unconditional VP token gainer is something that you should never ever do as a normal Kingdom card, but it magically works out if you put it into a split pile-

In PRACTICE I have not encountered a problem so far with Scribe and Bribe and Fly-Eagly-Fly has neither during his test game. This doesn't mean that Marsh-Banshee actually works, it could still be broken. But, and here our design philosophies differ, in my opinion this should be decided by playtesting experience instead of general theoretical opposition to Debt attacks.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #34 on: October 07, 2018, 05:45:48 pm »
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I just playtested this version with 2 players:
Each other player who has less than 4 debt takes 1 debt. +1 coffers per player who didn't (including you).
The card mostly worked, with the Marsh benefit being powerful but not too much, and the Banshees not taking over the game completely. The main thing I noticed was that the coffers just canceled out the debt most of the time, which I personally did not find fantastic. Next time I'm going to playtest a version that gives you a spoils if anyone didn't take debt.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 05:49:30 pm by Fly-Eagles-Fly »
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2018, 05:52:39 pm »
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I also changed the wording.
+1 Coffers
Each other player who has less than 4 debt takes 1 debt. +1 Coffers per player who didn't.

Is it clear that it means the same thing as before? I just didn't like the 'including you' part. Also, after I playtest the Spoils version I will try a flat +1 or 2 coffers to see how that plays out.
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Holunder9

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2018, 10:14:56 am »
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Fairy Grove looks fine, like a quicker-to-play version of Fool. It needs the Fate type though.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2018, 10:42:26 am »
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Fairy Grove looks fine, like a quicker-to-play version of Fool. It needs the Fate type though.
Thanks, fixed.
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Asper

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2018, 01:06:28 am »
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A lot of these are very cute. I want to note though, that Fairy Grove's wording makes it seem like you intended its "while in play" effect to offer a choice between receiving that other player's Boon or getting the next-turn-effect. That is not the case. Perhaps you have it discarded to make sure it can't be used to receive several Boons outside your turn, fully aware the next-turn-effect will persist. But it misleads the player into thinking this wasn't the place. Perhaps do the Renaissance thing and write "(you will still get the next-turn-effect)"?

Asper

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2018, 01:15:10 am »
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Holunder9, I appreciate your mention of my Scribe on the subject of Debt attacks. I would just like to say, I specifically made it so that you don't get Debt if you are already overwhelmed by it. To get debt, you need to be debt-free, and actually buy something.

I have no strong opinion on whether split piles legitimate debt attacks (they certainly push them back to later parts of the game), but Plunder doesn't strike me as outlandish design that needs to be on a split pile. Like Monument, it is so much weaker if you don't actually intend to spend its coins that it falls flat as a strategy.

Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2018, 12:04:19 pm »
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So I playtested Haunted Mansion yesterday, and it worked well. My opponent did not buy it, but I used it to get 4 ghosts. I decided not to use it anymore after that, because I was drawing my deck every turn through a combination of City Quarter, Scheme, and Wild Hunt. And also Ghost of course. And Lurker so my Ghosts would hit something every time. My opponent did not like that game very much.  :)
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Holunder9

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2018, 05:59:02 pm »
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Craftsmen Village is too good, just compare it to Sculptor. It also seems to be doing too much so I'd either cut the handgaining or make it terminal.

Ice Sculpture looks nice but probably has to cost $6 or $8. In the opening freezing is like pseudotrashing, in the endgame freezing is like pseudo-Island-ing and you get a Hireling effect on top of it. Perhaps just do the freezing and make it a cheap Project such that you get the pseudotrashing earlier in the game?
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Kudasai

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2018, 04:04:10 am »
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A lot of these are very cute. I want to note though, that Fairy Grove's wording makes it seem like you intended its "while in play" effect to offer a choice between receiving that other player's Boon or getting the next-turn-effect. That is not the case. Perhaps you have it discarded to make sure it can't be used to receive several Boons outside your turn, fully aware the next-turn-effect will persist. But it misleads the player into thinking this wasn't the place. Perhaps do the Renaissance thing and write "(you will still get the next-turn-effect)"?

If the intention is to be one or the other, Fly-Eagles-Fly could word it as such:

Now and at the start of your next turn (if this is still in play): ...

Or something like this.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2018, 07:33:23 am »
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A lot of these are very cute. I want to note though, that Fairy Grove's wording makes it seem like you intended its "while in play" effect to offer a choice between receiving that other player's Boon or getting the next-turn-effect. That is not the case. Perhaps you have it discarded to make sure it can't be used to receive several Boons outside your turn, fully aware the next-turn-effect will persist. But it misleads the player into thinking this wasn't the place. Perhaps do the Renaissance thing and write "(you will still get the next-turn-effect)"?

If the intention is to be one or the other, Fly-Eagles-Fly could word it as such:

Now and at the start of your next turn (if this is still in play): ...

Or something like this.
Yes, that's the wording I was looking for. Thanks.
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Kudasai

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2018, 03:34:42 pm »
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A lot of these are very cute. I want to note though, that Fairy Grove's wording makes it seem like you intended its "while in play" effect to offer a choice between receiving that other player's Boon or getting the next-turn-effect. That is not the case. Perhaps you have it discarded to make sure it can't be used to receive several Boons outside your turn, fully aware the next-turn-effect will persist. But it misleads the player into thinking this wasn't the place. Perhaps do the Renaissance thing and write "(you will still get the next-turn-effect)"?

If the intention is to be one or the other, Fly-Eagles-Fly could word it as such:

Now and at the start of your next turn (if this is still in play): ...

Or something like this.
Yes, that's the wording I was looking for. Thanks.

No problem. Still on the topic of Fairy Grove. The bottom part might need to specify that it's being discarded from play to avoid any confusion.
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Holunder9

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #45 on: October 16, 2018, 02:46:28 am »
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I like the new Ice Sculpture. Perhaps it doesn't need the Journey token but being able to freeze a card every turn might be too good.
Deposit looks simple and good.
Only providing VPs for differently n amed Victory cards is a neat design. I fear that Pavilion could still be too good, especially in multiplayer games, but it is a stop card for $6 that only yields some VPs. I doubt that you could make something abusive out of it like with Goons or Groundskeeper.
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Asper

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #46 on: October 16, 2018, 03:20:05 am »
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A lot of these are very cute. I want to note though, that Fairy Grove's wording makes it seem like you intended its "while in play" effect to offer a choice between receiving that other player's Boon or getting the next-turn-effect. That is not the case. Perhaps you have it discarded to make sure it can't be used to receive several Boons outside your turn, fully aware the next-turn-effect will persist. But it misleads the player into thinking this wasn't the place. Perhaps do the Renaissance thing and write "(you will still get the next-turn-effect)"?

If the intention is to be one or the other, Fly-Eagles-Fly could word it as such:

Now and at the start of your next turn (if this is still in play): ...

Or something like this.
It's a bit like the chicken-and-egg problem. If you discard your card this turn, it's not in play next turn, so you did right, because it won't do anything next turn. If you keep it out, it does something, so you did right to keep it out.
Not saying you need to break your head over this, but perhaps it can be avoided.

Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #47 on: October 16, 2018, 10:09:22 am »
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The idea behind Fairy Grove was a card that gave you two Boons: One when you played it and one between the end of that turn and the start of your next turn. That's also where the name came from; Pixie gives you a Boon twice, Fairy grove gives you 2 Boons. Similar, but different. Also, Sacred Grove: You get a Boon during someone else's turn. Actually the opposite of Sacred Grove, but whatever.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #48 on: October 16, 2018, 10:12:00 am »
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Only providing VPs for differently named Victory cards is a neat design. I fear that Pavilion could still be too good, especially in multiplayer games, but it is a stop card for $6 that only yields some VPs. I doubt that you could make something abusive out of it like with Goons or Groundskeeper.
The thing with Pavilion is that it's only good near the end of the game, which might prove to make it rather weak. For it to be good, your opponents need to be buying Victory cards, and you need to have Victory cards. It just needs playtesting. I really need to play more Dominion :D.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #49 on: October 16, 2018, 05:56:49 pm »
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Pirate Cove/Galleon: The main problem is, how often will Galleon actually be uncovered? Pirate Cove looks like something you rarely want even one of on its own; to be worth it you'll have to want the Spoils more than your opponent and have a deck that can support a bunch of terminal Silvers. Patrician and Settlers are weak top cards but they're at least cantrips. The interaction with Galleon looks strong, but would filling your deck with terminal Silvers first be worth it?
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2018, 06:01:42 pm »
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Pirate Cove/Galleon: The main problem is, how often will Galleon actually be uncovered? Pirate Cove looks like something you rarely want even one of on its own; to be worth it you'll have to want the Spoils more than your opponent and have a deck that can support a bunch of terminal Silvers. Patrician and Settlers are weak top cards but they're at least cantrips. The interaction with Galleon looks strong, but would filling your deck with terminal Silvers first be worth it?
Hm. How strong would it be if it gave +1 Action? Looking at Wishing Well vs Mystic, it seems very strong, but that's also because since Mystic doesn't draw a card it has much stronger self-synergy.
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Holunder9

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #51 on: October 17, 2018, 03:59:50 am »
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I don't see any interaction between Galleon and Pirate Cove. Even if Pirate Cove only gained Spoils for you it it would hedge you only very mildy against Galleon attack as you might want to discard the Spoils in some situations.
This is why I'd do Galleon as a standalone card.

Without the self-trashing Traitor is clearly a better engine piece than Militia. But would you really get those hideous Hideouts, that semi-junk (hard to imagine a situation in which you have the terminal space for something that net draws only one card) into your deck to ensure the survival of your Traitors?
It is neat that the Hideouts cover up the Traitors, like Encampment/Plunder but I'd buff Hideout to make this idea work.

Drawbridge looks fine. The Debt costs might not be necessary although I see that it is questionable whether this is ok at $6.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #52 on: October 17, 2018, 11:19:41 am »
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Alright, now Hideout can also trash a card, maybe this is too strong? Now it looks a lot like Masquerade, I might change it to cost $3 or find a different way to make it better.

Galleon can put the gained Spoils into your hand. Is there a way to make you want to give everyone a spoils, because I like that idea but it seems weak. Would buffing Pirate Cove help, or not really?

The debt in drawbridge is to make it more equal-opportunity since it is pretty strong.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #53 on: October 17, 2018, 11:33:44 am »
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Maybe make other players discard a card to gain a Spoils, but then Galleon's attack can be pointless. I could do something like this for Galleon's attack:

Each other player trashes a Treasure from their hand costing $2 - $5, or reveals they can't.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #54 on: October 18, 2018, 08:25:25 am »
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Well, I'll figure out what to do with Galleon, but I used Pirate Cove (sort of) in my Traveller line. Here it makes sense thematically even more; when you're getting trained, and get anything good, the older warriors take it from you (if it's that kind of army, which this is).
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Holunder9

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #55 on: October 18, 2018, 01:15:20 pm »
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Some comments on the Traveller line:

Captive is extremely weak (which is OK).

Doesn't hurt if the 3 in the Traveller line is weakish and Woodcutter is arguably a weak 3 so Trainee is fine.

The 4 in a Traveller line can be better than a Kingdom 4 (Fugitive) so Barbarian is also OK. The Gold might actually be worse than the Coffers in an engine so it is a cool choice for the opponents.

Just compare Viking King to Hireling to see how weak it is. Hireling is the duration equivalent of Laboratory but this is the duration equivalent of half a restricted Throne Room that sometimes comes with 2VPs on top. The whole thing only works if there are other Attack cards in the Kingdom or you managed to get a Commander.

The wording of Convert is unclear but I guess you mean that you can e.g. play this for +3 Cards and +1 Action. DoubleLaboratory is very good and this is superflexible.

Now Monk totally shines, it is the Hireling equivalent of something better than Grand Market. And Converts are something you want en masse anyway. Now if an opponent is stupid enough to go for Viking King you even get some free card draw on top.

The splitting lines are a cool idea but they vary too wildly in power.
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Kudasai

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #56 on: October 19, 2018, 04:16:46 pm »
+1

Captive Traveler Line:

Captive - Weak as most starting Traveler Line cards should be, but this one particularly seems harsh. I think gaining the Silver to your hand would be completely acceptable and a nice reward for players who take the risk of opening Captive/Silver. Also opens up some nice interactions with other Silver strategy cards. Other than that, I think it's a nice, clean card and a good fit to start the line!

Trainee - I highly recommend changing this to read "Each player (including you) gains a Spoils." So few cards effect all players, I think it is easy for players to misread this and not give themselves a Spoils as well.

Barbarian - I also recommend for clarity changing to bottom half to read "When you discard this from play, you may exchange it for a (choose one): Convert; or Commander." It may look a bit weird, but all other official Dominion cards present choices in this manner and I think players are used to seeing this visual cue.

Commander - I think this could use a +1 Card added to it. Would give it a slight buff and a stronger interaction with Viking King. Cool attack part though! Also, the bottom says to exchange this for a "Savage King" instead of "Viking King".

Viking King - I think this could do without the Journey Token bit. It takes a lot of work to get to this point and the reword should be well worth it. This could probably just double every Attack with no conditions and give +1 VP token. This may seem harsh, but at this point in the game, Curses may already be out and people should have strong enough engines to survive discard Attacks.

All in all I think this is a cool Traveler line. They are certainly not easy to make and it's nice to see someone taking up the challenge. Any cards or aspects I didn't mention I think are good. Thanks for sharing!
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #57 on: October 20, 2018, 08:29:28 am »
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Yeah, I kind of forgot to fix Viking King. I had had a couple of different ideas, and this version is a conglomerate of different ones that I forgot to finish up. Still trying to figure out what I'm doing with it.
I may buff Captive a bit, don't know.
I'll change the wording suggestions, thanks. And yes, Convert could play +3 cards, +1 Action, or something like that. Should that wording be changed?
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #58 on: October 20, 2018, 04:30:40 pm »
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On an unrelated note, Deposit, Scientist, and Night Market all tested well in recent games. Loot seemed a bit too strong. I will probably change that one a little bit.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Fly-Eagles-Fly's fan cards
« Reply #59 on: October 20, 2018, 04:31:40 pm »
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Viking king is now a bit stronger.
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