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Author Topic: card ranking lists  (Read 1126 times)

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yakspit

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card ranking lists
« on: October 05, 2018, 11:23:56 am »
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hey everyone long time reader first time poster

i normally come here to read about dominion strategy. i like a lot of the articles and yeah i really like math so i like the qvist card lists and things like that. normally this place has everything about dominion that i like but i found something on reddit a while ago that i dont think ive seen here.

its a lot like the qvist card list here but it looks like this one is not sorted by cost and it has been updated a lot more recently. seems to me like a better version of whats here unless im missing something hahah. link

https://adamhorton.com/flog/dominion-combined-card-power-levels/

so yeah go check it out guys it looks pretty cool. i take no credit for making it btw i just saw this and i was surprised it wasn't here so enjoy haha
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secretCaveDweller

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Re: card ranking lists
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2018, 01:21:32 pm »
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Interesting that the highest Nocturne card is Cursed Village at 38 (and the only Nocturne card with rank better than 50). This seems to reverse the "power creep" trend that newer expansions have more powerful cards.

Great article, thanks for posting!
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werothegreat

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Re: card ranking lists
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2018, 01:50:32 pm »
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The reason it hasn't been posted here is because Adam had a big falling out with this forum a while back.
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Chris is me

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Re: card ranking lists
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2018, 04:28:56 pm »
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The main thing to note is that this is one guy's opinion, while Qvist is an aggregate of many people's opinions, weighted by ranking.
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Awaclus

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Re: card ranking lists
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2018, 04:57:03 pm »
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The main thing to note is that this is one guy's opinion, while Qvist is an aggregate of many people's opinions, weighted by ranking.

It's not one guy's opinion, it's also a popular vote based ranking. AdamH's own opinion would probably be significantly better than his list or Qvist's list.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: card ranking lists
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2018, 11:27:18 pm »
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Two of the things I noticed was how low Raider is listed (I've always thought it very nasty) and that SCOUT ISN'T THE LAST CARD!!!!!
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greybirdofprey

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Re: card ranking lists
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2018, 09:31:11 am »
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Two of the things I noticed was how low Raider is listed (I've always thought it very nasty) and that SCOUT ISN'T THE LAST CARD!!!!!

How exactly is Transmute under scout?
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Awaclus

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Re: card ranking lists
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2018, 10:23:03 am »
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Two of the things I noticed was how low Raider is listed (I've always thought it very nasty) and that SCOUT ISN'T THE LAST CARD!!!!!

How exactly is Transmute under scout?

People voted it worse.
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yakspit

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Re: card ranking lists
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2018, 11:53:49 am »
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haha wow look at all of the replies. that's amazing

i wonder how many people have read about these ratings then. i remember reading the qvist ratings and thinking that i wanted to compare cards of different costs and then i found these and it worked well.

i wondered why the qvist ratings arent presented in a combined form like this. where cost is factored in. is that data available somewhere i think i would like to compare and see where things fall out.

do we know if its the same people voting on each list. sorry i have so many questions haha
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Awaclus

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Re: card ranking lists
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2018, 12:10:34 pm »
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haha wow look at all of the replies. that's amazing

i wonder how many people have read about these ratings then. i remember reading the qvist ratings and thinking that i wanted to compare cards of different costs and then i found these and it worked well.

i wondered why the qvist ratings arent presented in a combined form like this. where cost is factored in. is that data available somewhere i think i would like to compare and see where things fall out.

do we know if its the same people voting on each list. sorry i have so many questions haha

AdamH's rating forms got posted at least on the Dominion Discord and reddit.

The reason why Qvist's ratings aren't presented like this is probably that the method of rating is different. Whereas AdamH's version asks you to rate each card on a scale from 1 to 10, Qvist's version asks you to order them from strongest to weakest. Qvist's website allows you to do the ranking within each cost category individually, or by ranking the entire list of cards at the same time, but probably most people only do the former. As a result, it's pretty impossible to know whether the weakest $4 is weaker or stronger than the weakest $5 since they're both just the weakest card on their respective list, but on AdamH's list, if one had an average of 1.3 and the other was 1.9, you can do the ranking easily.

It's not the exact same people, but probably a lot of the same people on both lists.
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yakspit

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Re: card ranking lists
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2018, 12:44:59 pm »
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wow your fast haha thanks for the info

the method of ratings is different but i can take the total list and sort it by cost to get qvists lists if i wanted. and yes in case your wondering i have done that haha excel is pretty great. now that i think about it you said i have to rank the cards by cost for qvists ranking is that right. so i have to come up with a complete order but that information doesnt get preserved very well when all the stats are put together. or maybe im missing something hahah. seems like that would take a really long time and your getting less information

when are there going to be another one of these. it says so on the page i linked that it will be a month from now but what about the qvist one. i want to give it a shot and speedrun it lol see which one i can do faster
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faust

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Re: card ranking lists
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2018, 04:16:52 pm »
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Interesting that the highest Nocturne card is Cursed Village at 38 (and the only Nocturne card with rank better than 50). This seems to reverse the "power creep" trend that newer expansions have more powerful cards.

Great article, thanks for posting!
Actually Vampire is at 34.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: card ranking lists
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2018, 05:34:15 pm »
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Two of the things I noticed was how low Raider is listed (I've always thought it very nasty) and that SCOUT ISN'T THE LAST CARD!!!!!

How exactly is Transmute under scout?

People voted it worse.

Without implying anything - what reasons could people have to think of it as worse?





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Honkeyfresh

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Re: card ranking lists
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2018, 05:50:17 pm »
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i'm with u.  How is this even close to that low. It thins ur dek, turns estates into useful cards.  I can't imagine it's the worst card.did people put Raid before this? Stash? Mine? Harvest?Duchess? beggar? Embargo? tax? Poor House? Noble Brigand? Bureaucrat? Treasure map?

I mean get real.

This has to be an inside joke.  For comparison transmogrify is #26 on the list of 82 4  cost cards. 
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 06:01:06 pm by Honkeyfresh »
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: card ranking lists
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2018, 07:38:48 pm »
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As a result, it's pretty impossible to know whether the weakest $4 is weaker or stronger than the weakest $5 since they're both just the weakest card on their respective list, but on AdamH's list, if one had an average of 1.3 and the other was 1.9, you can do the ranking easily.

Well, Qvist's lists do do this with the Potion costs, at least, because any other ranking of those wouldn't work. As it turns out, they can all be the best 6P card.

Without implying anything - what reasons could people have to think of it as worse?

The cost is a big part of it. First you have to buy the Potion, which will clog your deck for the rest of the game, then you have to waste all of the $ in your hand to buy the Transmute if you don't have +Buy.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 07:41:21 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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vishwathg

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Re: card ranking lists
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2018, 08:41:19 pm »
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then you have to waste all of the $ in your hand to buy the Transmute if you don't have +Buy.

I don't think this really matters much. You're pretty much implying it would be a better card if it costed $2P...I think it just has to do with the Potion-cost and its terrible interactions with pretty much anything... (Is Transmute/Tower even a thing?)
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 08:42:22 pm by vishwathg »
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ConMan

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Re: card ranking lists
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2018, 08:51:44 pm »
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As a result, it's pretty impossible to know whether the weakest $4 is weaker or stronger than the weakest $5 since they're both just the weakest card on their respective list, but on AdamH's list, if one had an average of 1.3 and the other was 1.9, you can do the ranking easily.

Well, Qvist's lists do do this with the Potion costs, at least, because any other ranking of those wouldn't work. As it turns out, they can all be the best 6P card.

Without implying anything - what reasons could people have to think of it as worse?

The cost is a big part of it. First you have to buy the Potion, which will clog your deck for the rest of the game, then you have to waste all of the $ in your hand to buy the Transmute if you don't have +Buy.
I was also going to try to explain how it's slow and doesn't even do a good job of thinning (because it turns cards into other cards you don't necessarily even want), but honestly I think the strategy article explains it perfectly well.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: card ranking lists
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2018, 10:51:41 pm »
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then you have to waste all of the $ in your hand to buy the Transmute if you don't have +Buy.

I don't think this really matters much. You're pretty much implying it would be a better card if it costed $2P...I think it just has to do with the Potion-cost and its terrible interactions with pretty much anything... (Is Transmute/Tower even a thing?)

I'm implying that it pretty much does cost 2P a lot of the time, for this exact reason.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: card ranking lists
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2018, 11:46:04 pm »
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Also, potion is a card, so you are adding an extra card and an extra shuffle just to be able to trash estates for gold.
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Awaclus

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Re: card ranking lists
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2018, 07:20:23 am »
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i'm with u.  How is this even close to that low. It thins ur dek, turns estates into useful cards.

It doesn't thin your deck, it replaces stop cards with other stop cards, and it is itself a stop card that requires you to get another stop card (Potion) before you can even get it. Turning Estates into Gold is not as great as it sounds when you can only start doing that on your third shuffle after adding in two glorified Curses to your deck.
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Re: card ranking lists
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2018, 08:50:45 am »
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Embargo is better than Transmute. You heard it here.
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Chris is me

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Re: card ranking lists
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2018, 09:23:37 am »
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Embargo is better than Transmute. You heard it here.

Definitely; there's tons of times you want a one shot Silver, and don't care that it's terminal. The cursing thing I can take or leave - honestly I usually just Embargo Embargo (or Curse) so I don't have to think about it.

Transmute is a pretty special breed of awful. It's really contrived finding a situation where it is decent. It's really rarely okay with Bonfire and limited other trashing options available. And I guess in some games with other Potion cards it's a Duchy gainer late.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 09:25:45 am by Chris is me »
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Re: card ranking lists
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2018, 09:31:23 am »
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Embargo is better than Transmute. You heard it here.

Definitely; there's tons of times you want a one shot Silver, and don't care that it's terminal. The cursing thing I can take or leave - honestly I usually just Embargo Embargo (or Curse) so I don't have to think about it.

Transmute is a pretty special breed of awful. It's really contrived finding a situation where it is decent. It's really rarely okay with Bonfire and limited other trashing options available. And I guess in some games with other Potion cards it's a Duchy gainer late.

As the sole trasher on a board with other potion cost cards, it can be decent, but probably never great.
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Re: card ranking lists
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2018, 09:35:34 am »
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As the sole trasher on a board with other potion cost cards, it can be decent, but probably never great.

Yeah. Transmute has a very tiny chance of being barely usable. It's about in the same vein as Scout, honestly - except Scout doesn't officially exist anymore (although I own a first edition Intrigue set so I can still play with it, and sometimes do if it shows up in a full random).
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Re: card ranking lists
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2018, 09:57:41 am »
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Embargo is better than Transmute. You heard it here.

Definitely; there's tons of times you want a one shot Silver, and don't care that it's terminal. The cursing thing I can take or leave - honestly I usually just Embargo Embargo (or Curse) so I don't have to think about it.

Transmute is a pretty special breed of awful. It's really contrived finding a situation where it is decent. It's really rarely okay with Bonfire and limited other trashing options available. And I guess in some games with other Potion cards it's a Duchy gainer late.

I've had some really sloggy games where it was fine, but mostly because you were picking up a potion anyway for Familiar or Vineyard and there was no better terminal.
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