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Author Topic: Reaction cards  (Read 1101 times)

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Dwhit

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Reaction cards
« on: October 03, 2018, 09:47:45 pm »
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We need a reaction card that cares about being revealed (as by a bandit or a scrying pool) another good one would be reacting to gaining coppers, gain coffers instead (similar to trader)
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GendoIkari

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2018, 02:20:40 pm »
+1

We need a reaction card that cares about being revealed (as by a bandit or a scrying pool) another good one would be reacting to gaining coppers, gain coffers instead (similar to trader)

I remember discussing this a while ago; can't find the thread though. One issue is the rules ambiguity about when a card is revealed. Is it only when a specific instruction told you to reveal cards? Or is it any time a card becomes publicly visible? When you discard cards, you cause the top card of your discard pile to be revealed, for example.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2018, 09:12:04 pm »
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The Goko/Making Fun online Dominion had a "reveal window" that showed you what cards were being revealed to other players. That could work.

Something like giving Coffers, Villagers or VP would cause the fewest issues with resolution orders
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Holunder9

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2018, 03:07:03 am »
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We need a reaction card that cares about being revealed (as by a bandit or a scrying pool) another good one would be reacting to gaining coppers, gain coffers instead (similar to trader)
The problem with on-reveal triggers is that the number of cards revealed varies wildly. Diggers like Golem can reveal a huge number of cards.
About the second idea, Mountebank is the only Copper junker, or Swindler once the Curses are out, so this shouldn't be broken. Beggar would become pretty good but that's a two card combo you could live with. The only real issue I see is that this Reaction allows you to convert each Buy into Coffers.
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Asper

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2018, 01:40:56 pm »
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We need a reaction card that cares about being revealed (as by a bandit or a scrying pool) another good one would be reacting to gaining coppers, gain coffers instead (similar to trader)
The problem with on-reveal triggers is that the number of cards revealed varies wildly. Diggers like Golem can reveal a huge number of cards.
They also discard a huge number of cards and we still have Tunnel.

The problem I see with "reveal" is that it's an overloaded term. Sure, some cards tell you to reveal stuff, but in the actual sense of the word, any card in the trash or supply is revealed, and card in your hand when you just randomly decide to show it (no rule ever tells you that cards in your hand should stay secret), any card that accidentally falls out of your hand... And so on.

LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2018, 08:54:17 pm »
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We need a reaction card that cares about being revealed (as by a bandit or a scrying pool) another good one would be reacting to gaining coppers, gain coffers instead (similar to trader)
The problem with on-reveal triggers is that the number of cards revealed varies wildly. Diggers like Golem can reveal a huge number of cards.
They also discard a huge number of cards and we still have Tunnel.

The problem I see with "reveal" is that it's an overloaded term. Sure, some cards tell you to reveal stuff, but in the actual sense of the word, any card in the trash or supply is revealed, and card in your hand when you just randomly decide to show it (no rule ever tells you that cards in your hand should stay secret), any card that accidentally falls out of your hand... And so on.
I don't see any problem with having 'reveal' as a reaction trigger. The top of supply piles or cards that accidentally fall out of your hand are not 'revealed' for the same reason that Messenger doesn't discard your deck.
(I have a reaction card in Resurgence that uses 'reveal' as a trigger.)

Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2018, 03:56:49 pm »
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I've tried to do this a few (>7) times in Antiquities, always to redesign it into something else because it's just too edge-casey. Don't let that stop you, though.

My issue is that it then because either 1) a reaction to attack cards but only a few of them, if it only triggers when someone else tells you to reveal a card.
2) a reaction that triggers on your own turn, which is sort of a "choose one" thing.

The real issue, though, is that if you make it "explicitly when you reveal a card" then it doesn't trigger on "Look at" which is a problem, because now you either have to say "trigger on reveal or look at" but then the player has to reveal it to trigger it? Messy.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2018, 06:13:28 pm »
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"Look at" does not trigger an on-reveal reaction. I don't see that as a problem.

Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2018, 09:35:49 am »
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FYI, the Renaissance rulebook is on the RioGrande website now. Spoiler alert!

Patron
$4
Action-Reaction
+1 Villager
+ $2
-
When something causes you to reveal this (using the word "reveal"), +1 Coffers.

It's a real card now.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2018, 11:34:40 am »
+3

We need a reaction card that cares about being revealed (as by a bandit or a scrying pool) another good one would be reacting to gaining coppers, gain coffers instead (similar to trader)

I remember discussing this a while ago; can't find the thread though. One issue is the rules ambiguity about when a card is revealed. Is it only when a specific instruction told you to reveal cards? Or is it any time a card becomes publicly visible? When you discard cards, you cause the top card of your discard pile to be revealed, for example.

Dammit, Donald.

 
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2018, 12:57:28 pm »
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Holunder9

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2018, 01:12:33 pm »
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Patron is clearly worded but it is in my opinion a bad idea as it does not allow intuitive application.
As GendoIkari has pointed out, cards get revealed lots of ways without the word "reveal" being printed on a Kingdom card.
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Asper

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2018, 06:46:09 pm »
+1

I agree. The fact that Donald does something doesn't magically make it great. Patron is "okay", but you have to ask yourself whether you want okay cards to create weird rules questions. Donald has occasionally expressed regret over Trader's "would", and I feel this isn't much better. I'm glad however that this is as "bad" as it gets with Renaissance.

Oh wait, Capitalism...

NoMoreFun

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2018, 06:58:33 pm »
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I have very mixed feelings about when ideas that are almost uniformly considered too game breaking for fan cards end up in official cards. I'm glad I get to experience "return to your action phase" and "when you reveal", but it's annoying keeping to rules like "no Silver with a bonus for $4", and explaining them to new fan card designers, when they actually were never rules in the first place.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 06:59:35 pm by NoMoreFun »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2018, 08:09:01 pm »
+1

No Silver+ for $4 was totally a Donald X. rule, and maybe still will be in the future. Man, who knows. For the record, itís a rule Iíve disagreed with for years. Iím glad itís finally been broken.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2018, 08:42:52 pm »
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As long as the cards are interesting and not just "Silver with + buy" taking up a whole card slot.

In my revised Alchemy idea I was careful to avoid having events costing $P give +$2, but I'm ok with it now.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2018, 08:57:56 pm »
+1

I agree. The fact that Donald does something doesn't magically make it great. Patron is "okay", but you have to ask yourself whether you want okay cards to create weird rules questions.

I always felt the same way about Crown and Villa. Not sure their novelty is worth it.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2018, 08:59:49 pm »
+1

No Silver+ for $4 was totally a Donald X. rule, and maybe still will be in the future. Man, who knows. For the record, itís a rule Iíve disagreed with for years. Iím glad itís finally been broken.

It has? Are you talking about Patron, or is there a Treasure that I missed in the set?

*Edit* Just saw the question in the interview thread. And I definitely don't think that Patron is Silver+ for . The CSM vs Ducat thread listed a huge number of way that a Treasure and an Action card are different. Most of those apply just as well to Silver vs Patron.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 09:01:54 pm by GendoIkari »
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2018, 12:52:52 am »
+3

I agree. The fact that Donald does something doesn't magically make it great. Patron is "okay", but you have to ask yourself whether you want okay cards to create weird rules questions.

I always felt the same way about Crown and Villa. Not sure their novelty is worth it.
boo
I strongly disagree.

faust

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2018, 02:04:42 am »
+2

I agree. The fact that Donald does something doesn't magically make it great. Patron is "okay", but you have to ask yourself whether you want okay cards to create weird rules questions.

I always felt the same way about Crown and Villa. Not sure their novelty is worth it.
boo
I strongly disagree.
That's the thing, some people like simplicity, some people like wackiness. It's good that Donald caters to both.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2018, 08:37:41 am »
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No Silver+ for $4 was totally a Donald X. rule, and maybe still will be in the future. Man, who knows. For the record, itís a rule Iíve disagreed with for years. Iím glad itís finally been broken.
With Captilalism, now there are lots of Silver+ for $2, $3, or $4.
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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2018, 09:16:08 am »
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I agree. The fact that Donald does something doesn't magically make it great. Patron is "okay", but you have to ask yourself whether you want okay cards to create weird rules questions.

I always felt the same way about Crown and Villa. Not sure their novelty is worth it.
boo
I strongly disagree.
That's the thing, some people like simplicity, some people like wackiness. It's good that Donald caters to both.

I disagree about Villa, but agree about Crown. Being able to play Treasures twice isn't worth the rules headaches, especially since there's already Counterfeit.
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Asper

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2018, 09:35:34 am »
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I agree. The fact that Donald does something doesn't magically make it great. Patron is "okay", but you have to ask yourself whether you want okay cards to create weird rules questions.

I always felt the same way about Crown and Villa. Not sure their novelty is worth it.
boo
I strongly disagree.
I on the other hand strongly agree. Both Villa and Crown are pretty meh for the rules questions they introduced. Same for Caravan Guard being played outside of your turn, by the way. Also, I could live just fine without Storyteller or Black Market playing Treasures in your action phase. If, in Storyteller's case, this had meant removing the card (or pushing it to Empires to instead take debt), so be it.

Asper

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2018, 09:36:43 am »
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I agree. The fact that Donald does something doesn't magically make it great. Patron is "okay", but you have to ask yourself whether you want okay cards to create weird rules questions.

I always felt the same way about Crown and Villa. Not sure their novelty is worth it.
boo
I strongly disagree.
That's the thing, some people like simplicity, some people like wackiness. It's good that Donald caters to both.

Crown isn't wacky, is it? It's really just another take on Throne Room, and we already had Counterfeit. I understand the argument for Villa, though.

GendoIkari

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Re: Reaction cards
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2018, 10:47:25 am »
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I agree. The fact that Donald does something doesn't magically make it great. Patron is "okay", but you have to ask yourself whether you want okay cards to create weird rules questions.

I always felt the same way about Crown and Villa. Not sure their novelty is worth it.
boo
I strongly disagree.
That's the thing, some people like simplicity, some people like wackiness. It's good that Donald caters to both.

Crown isn't wacky, is it? It's really just another take on Throne Room, and we already had Counterfeit. I understand the argument for Villa, though.

It's the action-treasure part that's wacky. So many people wondering things like if it counts as an action card if you played it in your buy phase, or if it counts as a treasure card if you played it in your action phase.
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