Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[pingpongsam]

Is all this certainty that Joseph is town based on his meta or something? I don't really get it.

I literally told people the town win condition as one of my first posts.... That should make it obvious that I'm town....

That doesn’t make you town, the constant assertion that people should find you towny for that is what makes you town. So yea meta/non-risk-averse playstyle reasons.

It basically boils down to you can't be this crappy of a scum player and still find your way to f.ds on a regular basis.

[hypercube]

Is all this certainty that Joseph is town based on his meta or something? I don't really get it.

I literally told people the town win condition as one of my first posts.... That should make it obvious that I'm town....

That doesn’t make you town, the constant assertion that people should find you towny for that is what makes you town. So yea meta/non-risk-averse playstyle reasons.

It basically boils down to you can't be this crappy of a scum player and still find your way to f.ds on a regular basis.

So he's too scummy to be scum? I don't really like this but I'm willing to defer to the IC for now.

I reread fang, he seems pretty similar to the town!fang I remember from NM13. He is unafraid to state his opinion on everything and his thought processes seem to come from a town perspective. I thought his proposed plan to lynch faust D1 was pro-town, it got some useful discussion going.

So I think I'll go back to vote: EFHW.

[EFHW]

vote: efhw

Rereading how the end of day went I still think both the robz and Joseph wagons were awful. I think hey are likely both town (despite Joseph’s scummy should I claim statement. Note joseph constantly sticks his foot in his mouth as town and is frequently mislynched do to it). Efhw bouncing between the wagons is scum not caring which one gets lynched.

I can also see space being scum, they became a last chance wagon as robz/joseph were stalling (due to scum not being super invested in forcing one or he other through). And space has had a very mudslingy start to day two.

In actuality, when WCD voted Robz I concluded he was probably town. Then I got on the Joseph wagon because it was the only other viable one. If I didn't care who got lynched, I would have just stayed on Robz. I had no reason to jump around.

Are you being sloppy or trying to mislynch me? vote: mcmc

I’m not sloppy you aren’t getting my point. Scum!Efhw knows both robz and Joseph are town and so there is no reason for you to need to stay on either wagon. You were pushing the Joseph lynch, happy to move over to the robz wagon which grew outrageously quickly and was built on nothing so it’s a super safe wagon to be on, but then it stalled and when wcd joined it your narrative for why you were on the robz wagon was going to look bad so you jumped off and went back to Joseph not caring if that prevented the robz wagon from going through.

Ok, I forgot about the don't want to be caught on a town wagon angle. Your theory, while wrong, is no longer scummy. unvote

[WestCoastDidds]

old people don't have the dexterity to ride scooters to work

100% true. Unless they are motorized wheelchair kinds of scooters.

Swan, what do you teach?

[WestCoastDidds]

I reread fang, he seems pretty similar to the town!fang I remember from NM13. He is unafraid to state his opinion on everything and his thought processes seem to come from a town perspective. I thought his proposed plan to lynch faust D1 was pro-town, it got some useful discussion going.

So I think I'll go back to vote: EFHW.

Hyper, how do you think he would be different if he was scum? Our first game with him is present in my thoughts, too, and I don't think he has been quite so aggressive in trying to question folks and then call them out as he was in that game.  I agree with the faust discussion feeling pretty pro-town but if Fang knows faust is not scum (since if he is scum he knows who the scum are) then he has nothing to lose in making the suggestion and he knows enough to know that we aren't gonna lynch faust D1 so it likely wouldn't backfire.  His comment from earlier today the "why do you care who I reread" also felt a bit off to me, but I am not quite sure why.

There are 12 of us left and 3 are scum. Good odds that he is one of them, I figure.  EFHW was my choice for most of D1, more on feeling than on good reasons. Mcmc comes up with good args, but I am still a bit stumped as to why faust was defending her.  Is there something about her usual playstyle that I am missing? All I know is that she was scum in the only game I ever played with her and she seems similar now.

[EFHW]

WCD Reread (line #s may be off by one). I'll list the posts first and make my comments on them. I've omitted around 10 non-game related posts.

91 Says hi, talks about Standard Time. Doesn't want to follow the lynch faust plan unless he thinks it is a good idea.
94 Wouldn't want to lynch faust as a plan without his consent. She feels the decision hinges on the certainty of his being the nk.
96 Says not being deliberately dense, would faust explain why bad idea to lynch him if scum want to nk him.
127 Standard time again. Lack of confidence.
161 reads fang, mcmc and Awaclus as townie. Feels fluff is the human part of the game. Finds pps defensive, but maybe he is just annoyed? votes EFHW for seeming disengaged, not offering perspectives. Thinks DatSwan and Robz may soon start looking scummy because of their inactivity.
223 EFHW-PPS "dust-up" is fascinating. Wonders why they are so at odd with each other.
224 EFHW-PPS have "compelling clash of playstyles". PPS cogent.
257 Cases on Dylan, PPS, and chairs/hypercube: "I’m not sure that the case on any of those three is especially compelling. Chairs hasn’t been around much, pps has mostly been involved in a conversation about how he reads folks and picked up votes for being lazy, and the votes on Dylan are odd and seem kind of random. Faust’s explanation of the DatSwan vote is most interesting to me, but now he’s voting for Dylan instead but I’m not sure why. Swans most recent post is also about set up. Those are the kinds of things I have posted in the past because newb. Swan is way more experienced than that...a “fuming magician”, if you will. Vote: DatSwan I also find EFHWs hard lean into PPS somewhat scummy, but I get the sense that is maybe part of the way she plays since “tenacious” has been used as a descriptor."
271 responds to faust's vote on her "well, that's helpful"
279 Feels like playing with 7 people, not 14. Lists 7 people she sees as not contributing.
[282 Awaclus v. WCD. 284 EFHW v. WCD]
288 justifies her choice of the 7 inactive people.
289 EFHW vote "similarly insightful"
290 Again comments on her inexperience.
292 Again comments on her inexperience.
293 Feels like the spirit of her post at 279 is being ignored.
[295 hypercube v. WCD]
296 Complains about lack of explanations for votes on her.
300 If the goal of lynching is to decrease the number of townies then lynching her is smart
304 she is not scum even a little bit.
305 People on her wagon get squinty side eyes. votes EFHW
317 Says she has evidence she is town.
318 Leaves to go trick-or-treating
340 conversation with faust about what is scummy.
346 Thoroughly defends herself against faust's accusations. Again comments on her inexperience.
347 Doesn't find faust scummy. Feels he is not reading her fairly.
363 Debate with faust continues. Complains that people aren't giving reasons for their votes on her.
369 Complains that people aren't giving reasons for their votes on her.
373 Asks fang's opinion on EFHW change to Robz from her. He had recently agreed with EFHW.
376 "The best argument for finding me towny, by your standards, is that I am trying to find scum and trying to help town. For example, I am engaging with others and not avoiding participation, I am trying to keep town from wasting a lynch on me-- unless the goal is just to winnow the number of town players to a manageable level, and I am attempting to identify what I think are good arguments, what are specious arguments, and when there is no argument about various folks. I am as authentic and transparent as I know how to be, including admitting my inadequacies. While I am sometimes too casual in my language, or fluffy in my comments (but the daylight savings tie thing is interesting!) there is nothing about my play that is disingenuous, shifty, or inconsistent."
433 Nearing deadline, votes Robz
448 Why the votes on Space?
469 Space towny, helpful, random. Robz null, voting him for inactivity. Wants to vote EFHW, thinks EFHW working with faust.
473 Declines to go back to EFHW because "no one else is feeling it."
504 Challenges Joseph's assertion that there must be scum on Robz's wagon. Thinks should look for scum in people who left Robz wagon or who were on wagons that would never go anywhere..
508 Similar argument.
537 Rereads NM9. Makes case on fang that integrates a lot of information. votes: fang
580 Evaluating her scum read on EFHW.

Ok - so I had a lot of problems with WCD's day 1. She seemed to be mischaracterizing my conflict with pps, her reads and lists seemed arbitrary, she complained a lot about people voting her, cluttered the thread just a bit with non-relevant posts, and put a lot of emphasis on how new she is. When she starts getting down to details towards the end of Day 1, though, she seems more like she might be trying to help. Her self-defense vs. faust was on point, and her case on fang is integrative and detailed. I've decided to withhold judgment for now and hope to see more of this productivity.

[infangthief]

Ok, reread of WCD day 1:

Getting started 90,93,95,126,160
- Intro and opinion on the lynch faust D1 plan.
- Mixed view of PPS, votes EFHW.
- Towny start.

Absent for a bit
- Much less engaged than in NM13.

222,223
- explains absence.
- PPS/EFHW 'dustup' comment which EFHW objected to. I can agree with EFHW's objection, but I don't think it's scummy of WCD to make that comment.
- joins faust commentating on EFHW/PPS.

Things heat up 254,256,257,270,278
- explains PPS 'writing well' joke.
- 256 is first bit of real content since 160. Doesn't like the cases on chairs, PPS or Dylan. Bit more shade on EFHW. Votes DatSwan because he's only talking about set-up.
- 278 is the poor comment that it feels like we're playing with 7 instead of 14. It would be a reasonable impression, except that WCD has been one of the absent ones until this point.

At the time I found 256 towny, but I think that was just because it was nice to see some content at last. Rereading, I do find WCD scummy overall by this point:
- still no response to the question about the towny list she gave in 160.
- the appeal to faust's vote on DatSwan seems like clutching at straws, that vote was like 4 days earlier.
- in 256 I don't like the reference to "fuming magician".

WCD picked up a lot of votes around here, but from this point onwards she seems to respond well.

292 seemed good, and then once faust states his case, WCD argues against it well, starting at 339.
Argument with faust, also Awaclus a bit, WCD comes over well I think.
375 is good and by then the wagon is over.

End of day:
432 - Votes Robz because it's remarkable to 'not do D1'
447 - good point challenging faust about starting a Space wagon
469 - would prefer to vote EFHW
472 - doesn't actually vote EFHW because of lack of support


So... there were definitely scummy points (around 256 and 278), but I think the fact that her wagon dissipated so effectively when she started engaging more points to her being likely to be town.

WCD, I would like to ask you two questions, however:

1. How does the term 'fuming magician' relate to DatSwan in #256?
2. Why were you on Robz at the end of the day, when you said you'd prefer to vote EFHW?

[infangthief]

Oh, er, PPE: 1. Hi EFHW.
It'll be interesting to read through and see if we're similar at all!

[Joseph2302]

Is all this certainty that Joseph is town based on his meta or something? I don't really get it.

I literally told people the town win condition as one of my first posts.... That should make it obvious that I'm town....

That doesn’t make you town, the constant assertion that people should find you towny for that is what makes you town. So yea meta/non-risk-averse playstyle reasons.

It basically boils down to you can't be this crappy of a scum player and still find your way to f.ds on a regular basis.

Usually as scum I die D1 or D2. Except last time I actually managed to get to LYLO

[Joseph2302]

And I'm not been feeling well last couple of days. Don't have the energy to read those long posts now, will try to tomorrow

[hypercube]

Hyper, how do you think he would be different if he was scum?

Well, if he's good at being scum he'll be pretty similar to how he was as town, if he's not good presumably his attitude would change in some way, maybe becoming more reserved and self-preservatory? It's hard to tell with only the one data point. For now I'll assume that he hasn't become a mastermind in his second game of forum mafia, and if he's scum it'll become apparent over the course of the game.

[2.71828.....]

Usually as scum I die D1 or D2. Except last time I actually managed to get to LYLO

This reads like classic mislynched!Joseph.  (Town)

[SpaceAnemone]

Also, no one except Robz knew he was redeemed, so his being ic now is not relevant to the badness of the wagon.

This is relevant, and Robz hadn't given us any reason to think he was that townie. I assume he thought that the combination of being VLA and having a meta of being extremely absent in general would get him through D1. Personally, I'd missed that he had a several-day-long VLA posted after his slow start to the game.

I still think the lack of interaction between Robz and mcmc is a little odd, as is the fact that mcmc hid his defense of Robz in the same post as a vote for me. Those two usually know what's going on with one another, and mcmc made no mention of Robz's VLA, only that he was very busy. (Note for newbies who may not have come across this before: Robz and mcmc are real-life brothers).

This is a large mis-characterization of how I acted towards robz. I never defended him only repeatedly pointed out that he had done almost nothing alignment indicative for his meta. Also it’s hard to interact with him when he was gone most of the day. This is a scummy post throwing very lose shade at me.

This is the post I was thinking of:

vote: space

I can speak somewhat to robz having been insanely busy in the last week or so. So part of his absence has definitely been due to that.

What he has posted has still been typical unhelpful early game robz play which comes from both town!robz and scum!robz but it is certainly a coin flip lynch.

The fact that you're pointing out that he's genuinely busy (which I described as "defending", though maybe you're just arguing my wording?), but not overtly mentioning the VLA, is exactly what I described.

[SpaceAnemone]

As for throwing shade, I haven't had time/energy to put together a full case on anyone, but that doesn't mean it's not helpful to share suspicions with other people. I've already made it pretty clear earlier in the game that I don't subscribe to Awaclus's rules about never putting reads or opinions into the game.

[WestCoastDidds]

On the EFHW and Fang rereads...

An explanation of the "fuming magicians". It was an autocorrect and what must have been a not-very-funny joke.  In the Dirk Gently game DatSwan said this to me at #604 

2) WCD - We are playing with fucking magicians. If you are town then it is almost GTD that there is at least a decade of experience under the belt of the skum team. Assume that they have mapped out some shit. For reference, look at the game we just finished. I am NOT saying you must be wrong, I am just saying that you shouldn't dismiss it as an option.

I thought it was hilarious and now think of most of the veteran players in this way. Magicians.

[WestCoastDidds]

WCD, I would like to ask you two questions, however:

1. How does the term 'fuming magician' relate to DatSwan in #256?
2. Why were you on Robz at the end of the day, when you said you'd prefer to vote EFHW?

1. I answered the first above (odd reference from a prior game that only I remembered).
2. When mcmc showed up near the end of the day campaigning for her, I said I didn't think there would be enough critical mass to lynch her that close to deadline, plus faust was defending her which I couldn't figure out. I didn't want to be stubborn on my orginal vote for her in a way that might put us in jeopardy of not lynching anyone. I also didn't have a terribly good case on her as much as a feeling about the way she had interacted with PPS and then me during the day, so I wouldn't have been able to make a case to sway anyone else.

[SpaceAnemone]

Hyper, how do you think he would be different if he was scum? Our first game with him is present in my thoughts, too, and I don't think he has been quite so aggressive in trying to question folks and then call them out as he was in that game.  I agree with the faust discussion feeling pretty pro-town but if Fang knows faust is not scum (since if he is scum he knows who the scum are) then he has nothing to lose in making the suggestion and he knows enough to know that we aren't gonna lynch faust D1 so it likely wouldn't backfire.  His comment from earlier today the "why do you care who I reread" also felt a bit off to me, but I am not quite sure why.

@WCD, have you played scum in any of your games on this site so far? (Sorry, I know it's lazy not to dig through the recent ones myself to check, but it's also past midnight and I need sleep...)

[Swowl]

old people don't have the dexterity to ride scooters to work

100% true. Unless they are motorized wheelchair kinds of scooters.

Swan, what do you teach?

I operate a few swim academies in my area.

[WestCoastDidds]

@WCD, have you played scum in any of your games on this site so far? (Sorry, I know it's lazy not to dig through the recent ones myself to check, but it's also past midnight and I need sleep...)

No, although in Dirk Gentley I was an unaligned gray text person.

[WestCoastDidds]

Otherwise I’ve just been VT. I’ve never needed my QT for anything other than “here’s your role!l

[Swowl]

I am doing some ISOs from a VCA perspective trying to figure out who would generate a lot of info from a flip... then sorta realized that it is way less important than usual because we have to wait a whole extra day for said flip. So, instead, I am just looking at things from a broad stroke sort of view. This comes with some "assumptions", which I know can be bad, but I want to bounce them off the wall with everyone.

It is important to remember that Skum, regardless of where they were wagon-wise, were acting under the assumption that Town would not gain info of a player's alignment until tomorrow. This is important for my theory. I think that Skum's obvious play on early days given this setup would be to spread wagons out as much as possible. This gives them the advantage of WIFOM from the delayed flip, combined with the assurance of the lynch because it plurality by default.

That pretty much breaks down to = I think skum would want to have Town vs Town wagons going on in early days (duh, I know.. stick with me for a sec).

Based on that premise, the first things that jump out to me are:

1) The dissipation of the Joseph wagon
2) The fact that the Joseph wagon never really came back - as I would suspect if Robz and Joseph were both town it would of been held closer.
3) And to back up those points, I combine in the obvious statement that skum will want to be spread out on wagons, as they always do.

At 2.5 hours to DL it read...

Vote count 1.7

Joseph2302 (3): infangthief, faust, hypercube
EFHW (3): Dylan32, mcmcsalot, WestCoastDidds
Dylan32 (1): Robz888
Awaclus (2): DatSwan, SpaceAnemone
Robz888 (4): 2.71828....., pingpongsam, Joseph2302, EFHW
mcmcsalot (1): Awaclus

That checks out. 3 wagons on [Joseph, EFHW, Robz]. Town!Robz is off-wagon, while both Joseph and EFHW are on Town!Robz.
-WCD switches from EFHW to Robz (making EFHW@2, Joseph@3, Robz@5)
-That triggers the EFHW switch from Robz to Joseph (making it EFHW@2, Joseph@4, Robz@4).

The above points are important to me because WCD switching could be done to protect either EFHW/Joseph, or it could be a Town switch. That is kind of a sub-point I want to get out there.
EFHW then leaves to lead wagon to tie Robz and Joseph at 4-4. Important bit - I do not think this is skummy. If I were Town in EFHW's position here I would do the same thing 100% of the time. It forces votes to be put through because of the plurality lynch component, which will of course generate info to look back on.

35 minutes out we are here...

Vote count 1.8

Joseph2302 (3): infangthief, hypercube, EFHW
EFHW (2): Dylan32, mcmcsalot
Dylan32 (1): Robz888
Awaclus (1): DatSwan
Robz888 (5): 2.71828....., pingpongsam, Joseph2302, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone
mcmcsalot (1): Awaclus
SpaceAnemone (1): faust

... and from here there are a lot of switches back and forth from multiple players... but the whole time the only viable wagon continues to be Robz. The other potential wagons would of been Space, EFHW and Joseph.

The final vote count looked like this:

Vote count 1.final

Joseph2302 (3): EFHW, faust, hypercube
EFHW (2): Dylan32, mcmcsalot
Dylan32 (1): Robz888
Awaclus (1): DatSwan
Robz888 (6): 2.71828....., pingpongsam, Joseph2302, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, infangthief
mcmcsalot (1): Awaclus

Whatever... My summary is that I think the triangle between [Robz, Joseph, Space, EFHW] is odd. Space is a distant fourth in my opinion. I think EFHW would do most of their shit as either alignment. And, I think that a lot of signs point to Joseph being avoided when (if they are town) I would assume skum would want to have them running at a more competitive wagon.

So..

Vote: Joseph

[infangthief]

On the EFHW and Fang rereads...

An explanation of the "fuming magicians". It was an autocorrect and what must have been a not-very-funny joke.  In the Dirk Gently game DatSwan said this to me at #604 

2) WCD - We are playing with fucking magicians. If you are town then it is almost GTD that there is at least a decade of experience under the belt of the skum team. Assume that they have mapped out some shit. For reference, look at the game we just finished. I am NOT saying you must be wrong, I am just saying that you shouldn't dismiss it as an option.

I thought it was hilarious and now think of most of the veteran players in this way. Magicians.

Yes, I got the reference to the Dirk Gently game, which I was following. And I'm glad that you've toned down the adjective. I find 'fuming magician' funnier than the original.
But the context in the Dirk Gently game was someone (presumed scum) being in control of someone else's vote, and DatSwan was advising you not to assume that the scum team were doing obvious things with that power. Magicians indeed.

I fail to see how that is related to DatSwan making a couple of comments about set-up in this game.

[infangthief]

I wanted to bring this up D1, but did not find the time.

Regarding the PR claiming stuff - I actually disagree with Fauts' assessment. It would seem that because we do not get a determinate flip (especially now we know Robz is the IC) for a prolonged day... the later in the game claims take place, the more useful they are to skum. This makes claims earlier on less viable to skum.

I don't think faust was saying that the delayed flip makes it viable for a scum to fakeclaim early.
I think he was saying that the delayed flip makes it viable for a scum to fakeclaim earlier.

Like in most games I guess there's a point (around Lylo or a bit before?) when scum is happy to take on a 1v1.
But with the delayed flip, that point probably moves earlier. Not as early as D1 or D2, sure, but earlier than Lylo.

Claims at this point are useless. A town claim can consist of 1/2 roles (vig or tracker). If they are vig there is no point in risking it, they might as well just shoot to prove it and get themselves off the next block. Tracker could claim and then would be forced to give their info on tracks done thus far.

As the scenario for a lynch and flip in the game is:
1) player is put to L-1
2) either player is lynched or another player is lynched
3) then we have to wait a day to find out what the flip is....

claiming doesn't really matter. we should not promote the idea. either skum fake claims and outs the real PR or it the real PR claiming, which only skum will know. Point being, there is the same downside to claiming while at L-1 and only town upside to revealing results after being put on the guillotine.

It isn't fun to think about, but it seems correct to me.

I'd have to think more to be sure, but it seems to me that if the tracker is about to get lynched (like intent to hammer, definitely going to happen unless they claim), then they should claim. Like they're going to be dead either way at that point, but at least make the scum team use up their night kill on it, rather than letting the tracker be lynched and scum have free reign who they night kill.

[pingpongsam]

Datswan put together a good wagon analysis that resulted in a Joseph vote. The whole time I was reading it was confirming my EFHW vote.

[LaLight]

Vote count 2.2

SpaceAnemone (2): Joseph2302, Robz888
infangthief (2): Dylan32, WestCoastDidds
EFHW (3): mcmcsalot, pingpongsam, hypercube
Dylan32 (1): 2.71828.....
Joseph2302 (1): DatSwan
Not voting (4): infangthief, SpaceAnemone, Awaclus, EFHW

Robz888 is on the guillotine.
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 ends Sunday, 11th of November, at 10am