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Author Topic: M119: Towny Mafia (Game Over!)  (Read 140700 times)

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mcmcsalot

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Re: M119: Towny Mafia (D2!)
« Reply #700 on: November 09, 2018, 09:44:28 pm »

and I just read through EFHW D2 and it is nothing but townie.  How are people even voting her????  It makes no sense

4 bourbons in, what’s townie, legitimately curious from your perspective
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Re: M119: Towny Mafia (D2!)
« Reply #701 on: November 09, 2018, 09:45:42 pm »

Also the recent posts convince me we need to run a drunk blitz mafia game like we used to and I’m avidly for trying out a discord/Skype rum blitz game but that convo should be had outside this thread.
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Re: M119: Towny Mafia (D2!)
« Reply #702 on: November 09, 2018, 09:50:08 pm »

and I just read through EFHW D2 and it is nothing but townie.  How are people even voting her????  It makes no sense

I think, for me, it has something with her being such good scum last game.  That and she keeps voting for me.
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Re: M119: Towny Mafia (D2!)
« Reply #703 on: November 09, 2018, 09:52:07 pm »

Also the recent posts convince me we need to run a drunk blitz mafia game like we used to and I’m avidly for trying out a discord/Skype rum blitz game but that convo should be had outside this thread.

Ooohhhhh.....and, good point. I feel somewhat bad that all the Euros will wake up to the beer/bourbon conversations with nothing but coffee.
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Re: M119: Towny Mafia (D2!)
« Reply #704 on: November 09, 2018, 09:54:06 pm »

because you asked politely:

Robz is IC. Interesting twist.

RIP faust. vote: WCD.

This is a classic town response to a mislynch.  "we lynched someone, not who I wanted, they turned out town.  Doubling down on my D1 scum read"

vote: efhw

Rereading how the end of day went I still think both the robz and Joseph wagons were awful. I think hey are likely both town (despite Joseph’s scummy should I claim statement. Note joseph constantly sticks his foot in his mouth as town and is frequently mislynched do to it). Efhw bouncing between the wagons is scum not caring which one gets lynched.

I can also see space being scum, they became a last chance wagon as robz/joseph were stalling (due to scum not being super invested in forcing one or he other through). And space has had a very mudslingy start to day two.
In actuality, when WCD voted Robz I concluded he was probably town. Then I got on the Joseph wagon because it was the only other viable one. If I didn't care who got lynched, I would have just stayed on Robz. I had no reason to jump around.

Are you being sloppy or trying to mislynch me? vote: mcmc

I’m not sloppy you aren’t getting my point. Scum!Efhw knows both robz and Joseph are town and so there is no reason for you to need to stay on either wagon. You were pushing the Joseph lynch, happy to move over to the robz wagon which grew outrageously quickly and was built on nothing so it’s a super safe wagon to be on, but then it stalled and when wcd joined it your narrative for why you were on the robz wagon was going to look bad so you jumped off and went back to Joseph not caring if that prevented the robz wagon from going through.
Ok, I forgot about the don't want to be caught on a town wagon angle. Your theory, while wrong, is no longer scummy. unvote

Then you have the quick mcmc vote and then unvote.  This puts EFHW in the "me vs the world" category, which I think is scummy.  She feels as though she is playing hard, having good input, and people just find her scummy for it.  well screw them, I will vote them.  Except after cooling off and looking at it unvotes and then.....back to WCD a little bit after the reread.

Then just some other random stuff.

I you can build up master!scum!EFHW in your head if you want, but the simplist answer is usually right, and it is pretty simple to see town!EFHW
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mcmcsalot

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Re: M119: Towny Mafia (D2!)
« Reply #705 on: November 09, 2018, 09:54:53 pm »

At the same time, you were already voting for her from#301, and stayed on her till the end of the day, minus a handful of posts where you hopped onto my wagon and back. It looks from here like a really strong tunnel on EFHW that you're justifying with later behaviour.

You claimed that you had originally voted for EFHW because you had a strong townread on WCD, and suspected scum of pushing her. The wagon in question was faust, Awaclus, EFHW, and then hypercube. Obviously, we never get much out of Awaclus, but what did you feel about hypercube, given that he also displayed a lot of changes of vote at the end of D1?
clipped for ease of reading

So I think you are having your cake and eating it to(as well? This quote seems grammatically incorrect). You are claiming I am tunneling efhw as well as claiming I am justifying my case on efhw after the fact. When in reality I made a loose day one case (one that I felt was much better than robz or Joseph but I was willing to vote for you) based on her votes on wcd and Joseph whom I found townie. I then had my scum read strengthend by her actions around deadline (conveniently hoping on and off the robz wagon), and furthermore today as she has reflected her scum meta of keeping a cool head and not engaging with my case on her/even conceding to the angle I am coming from in certain areas. All of this together creates my current want to lynch her. So you can claim my overall case is weak or you can claim I am tunneling and viewing all of her post in the worst way, but you can’t say I am justifying a weak earlier case and tunneling at the same time. I just don’t drop cases as easily as many players around.
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Re: M119: Towny Mafia (D2!)
« Reply #706 on: November 09, 2018, 09:55:02 pm »

and I just read through EFHW D2 and it is nothing but townie.  How are people even voting her????  It makes no sense

I think, for me, it has something with her being such good scum last game.  That and she keeps voting for me.

well, are you scum?  It would be a good reason for her to vote for you.
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Re: M119: Towny Mafia (D2!)
« Reply #707 on: November 09, 2018, 09:56:41 pm »

te and then unvote.  This puts EFHW in the "me vs the world" category, which I think is towny.  She feels as tho

sorry, typed "scummy" instead of "towny"
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Re: M119: Towny Mafia (D2!)
« Reply #708 on: November 09, 2018, 09:57:11 pm »

E your townread of efhw really seems to be that she is playing a good game, not she’s playing a towny game. I agree she hasn’t done anything insanely scummy but for god sakes yesterday we lynched robz after all of three posts from him and I at least see her pushing cases on people I find townie which makes her more than likely scum.
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Re: M119: Towny Mafia (D2!)
« Reply #709 on: November 09, 2018, 09:58:51 pm »

E your townread of efhw really seems to be that she is playing a good game, not she’s playing a towny game. I agree she hasn’t done anything insanely scummy but for god sakes yesterday we lynched robz after all of three posts from him and I at least see her pushing cases on people I find townie which makes her more than likely scum.

I do have a soft spot for people who play good games.  How about we just lynch EFHW tomorrow if she is still alive and we haven't lynched scum?  If she is playing a good game we want to keep her around to help us.  Lets lynch.....say.....PPS?  Let me reread him
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Re: M119: Towny Mafia (D2!)
« Reply #710 on: November 09, 2018, 09:59:39 pm »

and I just read through EFHW D2 and it is nothing but townie.  How are people even voting her????  It makes no sense

I think, for me, it has something with her being such good scum last game.  That and she keeps voting for me.

well, are you scum?  It would be a good reason for her to vote for you.

But I’m not! That’s the frustration. And seems that is impossible to convey.
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Re: M119: Towny Mafia (D2!)
« Reply #711 on: November 09, 2018, 10:03:55 pm »

It makes some sense to me not to lynch the players who playing well, and contributing frequently. Which I was what I tried to say previously in discussing why I invited her.

I’m not founding her towny, but think it’s be better to lynch someone less involved. It doesn’t seems like she is leading many of the wagons, unless she is much more subtle than I realize. 

Yes, please reread pps for me. I’m on my phone so all that is hard. Plus, you know, booze.

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mcmcsalot

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Re: M119: Towny Mafia (D2!)
« Reply #712 on: November 09, 2018, 10:06:02 pm »

You claimed that you had originally voted for EFHW because you had a strong townread on WCD, and suspected scum of pushing her. The wagon in question was faust, Awaclus, EFHW, and then hypercube. Obviously, we never get much out of Awaclus, but what did you feel about hypercube, given that he also displayed a lot of changes of vote at the end of D1?
clipped again

I would honestly have to do a full reread of hyper to let you know how I feel about him. I dislike his recent reads specifically the scum read of DatSwan and the townread on fang/you. But I remember little of his day 1.
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Re: M119: Towny Mafia (D2!)
« Reply #713 on: November 09, 2018, 10:08:29 pm »

It makes some sense to me not to lynch the players who playing well, and contributing frequently. Which I was what I tried to say previously in discussing why I invited her.

I’m not founding her towny, but think it’s be better to lynch someone less involved. It doesn’t seems like she is leading many of the wagons, unless she is much more subtle than I realize. 

Yes, please reread pps for me. I’m on my phone so all that is hard. Plus, you know, booze.

I have exclusively played this game via phone since I graduated college oh so many years ago. Rereads are not what they used to be. Also the sentiment you are advocating is akin to “lynch all lurkers” which worked in a day of town being as active as they possibly could be but I believe we are sadly in a time where that no longer works consistently.
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Re: M119: Towny Mafia (D1!)
« Reply #714 on: November 09, 2018, 10:08:43 pm »

Just look at that beautiful prose and yet I am the bad guy for townrreading that?

so PPS has a lot of stuff, and I am giving up on quoting tons of stuff and commenting on it, but here is the crux of it all.  Here we have PPS expressing disbelief that someone would scumread them.   "I am playing such a good game, how could you possibly scum read me"

Then later in his defense against EFHW's early D1 case:
All of your case is predicated on me being a typical, logic based player which I never have been.
  I for one have never thought of PPS as a "typical, logic based player" but again this is PPS expressing the idea that his play does not warrant being scum-read. 

This idea that "I am playing good, how could anyone scumread me" is tricky - it can come from town or scum.  When I feel as though I am an IC I usually get a bad case of it and post the most obnoxiously scummy things because "people could never see me as scummy - I am clearly town"

But for PPS?  not so sure.  I think it could be scum there.  Like I just said with mcmc - the obvious answer could very well be the right answer.

vote: PPS
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Re: M119: Towny Mafia (D2!)
« Reply #715 on: November 09, 2018, 10:27:39 pm »

Also the sentiment you are advocating is akin to “lynch all lurkers” which worked in a day of town being as active as they possibly could be but I believe we are sadly in a time where that no longer works consistently.

I haven’t played in many games with this many players, so I’m still trying to get a feel for how much activity is necessary and when silence is actually hurting us. We can’t lynch all the lurkers; there’s too many. I’m just not sure my time is best spent on the people actually making it a game. Overall I’m enjoying this game more than others because there wasn’t a mid-day stall where everyone just stopped...
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Re: M119: Towny Mafia (D1!)
« Reply #716 on: November 10, 2018, 07:53:36 am »

Just look at that beautiful prose and yet I am the bad guy for townrreading that?

so PPS has a lot of stuff, and I am giving up on quoting tons of stuff and commenting on it, but here is the crux of it all.  Here we have PPS expressing disbelief that someone would scumread them.   "I am playing such a good game, how could you possibly scum read me"

Then later in his defense against EFHW's early D1 case:
All of your case is predicated on me being a typical, logic based player which I never have been.
  I for one have never thought of PPS as a "typical, logic based player" but again this is PPS expressing the idea that his play does not warrant being scum-read. 

This idea that "I am playing good, how could anyone scumread me" is tricky - it can come from town or scum.  When I feel as though I am an IC I usually get a bad case of it and post the most obnoxiously scummy things because "people could never see me as scummy - I am clearly town"

But for PPS?  not so sure.  I think it could be scum there.  Like I just said with mcmc - the obvious answer could very well be the right answer.

vote: PPS

You just managed to townread all of my scum reads and then scum read me with with a half hearted “case” that has nothing to do with any actual scummy behavior. I mean, hell, if you wanted to put any conviction into it you would have explicitly pointed out that I had voted for the people you are reading as town. That would at least have the appearance of a case. This thing you just put out there seems intentionally formed as to have no means of response. It is essentially a baseless vote. What exactly is there for me to wrangle over in this?

You quoted me referring to Space and then mischaracterized that as some how referring to myself? That whole bit seems non sequitur. My whole point Space was making strong town plays not necessarily myself. At that point I was being scrutinized for not scum reading Space and space had just posted something that seemed exceptionally towny to me. I am not seeing how that constitutes playing up my own town game skills.

In the second quote you negate your own “argument” right out of the gate by conceding that what I said about myself is exactly true for how you see me as well. Again, nothing here for me to contend with. I’m seeing baseless allegations with nothing posed as an actual point of contention.
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Re: M119: Towny Mafia (D2!)
« Reply #717 on: November 10, 2018, 09:20:39 am »

@e, I second what PPS said about his "look at that prose" post. His post was #193, and I'd just posted at #192, at a point in the early game where PPS was getting scumread for townreading me, without people really scumreadign me at that point in the game, I think. Fang had voted me at #156, but nobody else joined him before he unvoted at #197.

In the post of mine that PPS was holding up as townie, I was arguing that I think it's helpful for people to state strong townreads (as a counter to Awaclus's usual assertion), because if scum feels compelled to participate in that, then they have a harder time u-turning to mislynch their earlier stated townread as the game state drifts. And ironically, PPS did flip to being interested in lynching me towards the end of D1, without even referring to his earlier stated townread.

He's in my "null" bucket right now, in spite of that, though. Partly because he's just not a logical player, and partly because he posted some setup thinking, which would be a big risk for him as scum... in my very first scum game he was my partner and scumslipped hard by trying to talk about setup. He's the sort of scum player who can't really resist the urge to do something wild and risky, rather than one to catch by subtle evidence-gathering.
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Re: M119: Towny Mafia (D2!)
« Reply #718 on: November 10, 2018, 09:59:46 am »

I reread Hyper this morning and although there is nothing glaringly scummy, there is very little that helpful either. It’s also interesting that at the start of D2, he skewers EFHW for moving her vote from me to Robz to Joseph to stay off the Robz wagon, but does the same thing when he moves from Robz to Joseph once it’s clear the Robz lynch is going through, too.

If I try to read EFHW as town, the fact that at he is consistently pushing her is interesting. I’ve been reading her as fairly scummy, but have tried to investigate the reasons why (discussed elsewhere) and wonder where his strength of conviction is coming from.
So, vote: hypercube

We’re headed up to a cabin in a bit and I have no idea what the WiFi situation will be. I should be able to check in before deadline, though.

Oh, and if y’all forgot....deadline is tomorrow at 10.
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Re: M119: Towny Mafia (D2!)
« Reply #719 on: November 10, 2018, 10:33:05 am »

I reread Hyper this morning and although there is nothing glaringly scummy, there is very little that helpful either. It’s also interesting that at the start of D2, he skewers EFHW for moving her vote from me to Robz to Joseph to stay off the Robz wagon, but does the same thing when he moves from Robz to Joseph once it’s clear the Robz lynch is going through, too.

If I try to read EFHW as town, the fact that at he is consistently pushing her is interesting. I’ve been reading her as fairly scummy, but have tried to investigate the reasons why (discussed elsewhere) and wonder where his strength of conviction is coming from.
So, vote: hypercube

We’re headed up to a cabin in a bit and I have no idea what the WiFi situation will be. I should be able to check in before deadline, though.

Oh, and if y’all forgot....deadline is tomorrow at 10.

I never voted for Robz.
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Re: M119: Towny Mafia (D2!)
« Reply #720 on: November 10, 2018, 10:49:50 am »

That's a really lazy attempt to build a case from someone who keeps imploring people to try harder. WCD even has to contort herself into discounting her expressed scumread of EFHW to make it work.

vote: WCD
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Re: M119: Towny Mafia (D2!)
« Reply #721 on: November 10, 2018, 11:41:58 am »

Vote: hypercube
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Re: M119: Towny Mafia (D2!)
« Reply #722 on: November 10, 2018, 12:01:26 pm »

Vote: WCD
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Re: M119: Towny Mafia (D2!)
« Reply #723 on: November 10, 2018, 12:23:13 pm »

The HyperChairs voting history seems worth looking at, in light of WCD's comments. For reference, the substitution occurred at #267.

Chairs votes PPS at #127, second onto the wagon behind Awaclus.
   (Awaclus moves from PPS onto Chairs at #136).
Chairs has an early 3-vote wagon when PPS votes him back at #140: "Chairs (3): Joseph2302, Awaclus, pingpongsam"
   (PPS wagon reaches 3 at #204: "pingpongsam (3): Chairs, EFHW, infangthief")
Hyper unvotes at #271, which is his opening post in the game.
Hyper joins me on Joseph at #274.
Hyper moves to WCD at #294, taking her wagon to 4: "WestCoastDidds (4): faust, Awaclus, EFHW, hypercube"
   (By #379, Hyper is the only one left on the WCD wagon).
Hyper moves back to Joseph at #381, pushing him up to 4: "Joseph2302 (4): SpaceAnemone, infangthief, faust, hypercube"
Hyper moves onto me at #465 (faust had only just started the wagon at #442).
Hyper moves back to Joseph at #489, putting him up to 3, whereas Robz was already at 6 votes by then.

So it's definitely true that he never voted Robz, while WCD's case said he did. Hyper [i[did[/i] bounce to me and then back to Joseph, but I'd only consider that to be bouncing carelessly between town wagons if I thought Joseph was townie. It certainly looks like Hyper is an unlikely partner for either scum!Joseph or scum!WCD, though.
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hypercube

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Re: M119: Towny Mafia (D2!)
« Reply #724 on: November 10, 2018, 12:59:27 pm »

Interestingly, WCD also thought I'd voted for Robz as of #503. I don't think she'd have made that mistake again if she had actually reread me in between then and now.

So that means at least one scum in {e, PPS, Joseph, WCD, Space, ingathief}

Not necessarily, right? Since it was a plurality instead of a majority, there were 6 other people with different votes in addition to Robz and faust. Once Robz lynch was assured, both EFHW and hyper jumped off and onto a wagon they knew wouldn’t make. The same with mcmc, Dylan, Awaclus, and DatSwan (not the jumping just the being on wagons going nowhere). I don’t know why scum would leave themselves on a town lynch wagon when it was going to make regardless. The VCA works much better when a majority is required to lynch.
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