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### AuthorTopic: Sequence point of Knights  (Read 463 times)

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#### Wuscheli

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##### Sequence point of Knights
« on: October 03, 2018, 01:16:12 am »
+1

Three players.
Player A plays a knight.
Player B reveals a knight and a Rats.
Player B asks if he may see what 2 cards player C reveals before he decides what to trash.
We ruled that player B must trash before player C reveals 2 cards. Was that right?

The FAQ says: "The ability they have in common is, each other player reveals the top two cards of their deck, trashes one of them that they choose that costs from \$3 to \$6, and discards the rest; then, if a Knight was trashed, you trash the Knight you played that caused this trashing. Resolve this ability in turn order, starting with the player to your left."

The wording "the ability" suggests that revealing and trashing is an uninterruptible unit and that there is no sequence point after the revealing.

But if player B chooses to trash the Rats, the +1 card should still happen before player B's knight is discarded. So there is some finer grained structure of sequence points that on-trash can latch on, but per-player cannot.

In general, how can I know where the sequence points of a card are? Is only each full-stop or semicolon a sequence point? And which sequence points are for on-something interrupt effects and which sequence points are for per-player?
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#### crlundy

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##### Re: Sequence point of Knights
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2018, 01:37:54 am »
+1

Yes, your ruling was correct. Each player must fully resolve how the Knight attack affects them before the next player begins resolving their Knight attack. That includes revealing cards, deciding which card to trash (if any), executing the on-trash effects of that card (if any), discarding the remaining revealed cards, and executing the on-discard effects of those cards (if any). You do those things in that order.

You must fully resolve each sentence of card instructions before moving onto the next, and resolve each sentence in the order it is written. Some instructions (usually phrased with "when", e.g. "when you trash this…") interrupt and must be resolved immediately. Simultaneous effects are resolved in player order, beginning with the current player.

I'm not completely sure what you mean by sequence points, or if this answers that part of your question.
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#### crj

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##### Re: Sequence point of Knights
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2018, 10:15:03 am »
0

I'm not completely sure what you mean by sequence points
I think Wuscheli means they're a C programmer. But the notion of sequence points isn't really relevant to Dominion.
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#### Wuscheli

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##### Re: Sequence point of Knights
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2018, 08:19:04 pm »
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Yes, your ruling was correct. Each player must fully resolve how the Knight attack affects them before the next player begins

Thanks :-)

Quote
I'm not completely sure what you mean by sequence points, or if this answers that part of your question.
Quote
But the notion of sequence points isn't really relevant to Dominion.

The question is: What is an instruction?

Or: Without looking in the FAQ, how can I deduce from the wording of Knight that its attack is not (Each opponent, in player order, reveals two cards. Each opponent, in player order, chooses one of their revealed cards \$3-\$6 and trashes it.)?

Is it because the card only says "Each other player" once, not twice? Probably cards that affect opponents would produce only one round of affection ever, and each opponent must always fully resolve all of their affection.

For example Oracle: "Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of their deck, and discards them or puts them back, your choice. They choose the order to return them." Here, the extra sentence "They choose the order" is a clarification, not a separate instruction. Player B must choose the return order before player C reveals 2 cards.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 08:21:40 pm by Wuscheli »
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#### crj

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##### Re: Sequence point of Knights
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2018, 10:35:40 pm »
+1

Or: Without looking in the FAQ, how can I deduce from the wording of Knight that its attack is not (Each opponent, in player order, reveals two cards. Each opponent, in player order, chooses one of their revealed cards \$3-\$6 and trashes it.)?
The base rules for the game say:
Quote
When two things happen to different players at the same time, go in turn order starting with the player whose turn it is. For example, when a player plays Witch, the other players gain Curses in turn order, which may matter if the Curses run out.
I think it's pretty clear that this should always be applied as broadly as it can be, so unless a card is worded as "Each player does X. Then, each player does Y." each player in turn does X, then Y, then the next player does X, then Y, and so on.
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#### Wuscheli

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##### Re: Sequence point of Knights
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2018, 01:49:08 am »
0

Quote
When two things happen to different players at the same time, go in turn order starting with the player whose turn it is. For example, when a player plays Witch, the other players gain Curses in turn order, which may matter if the Curses run out.
I think it's pretty clear that this should always be applied as broadly as it can be, so unless a card is worded as "Each player does X. Then, each player does Y." each player in turn does X, then Y, then the next player does X, then Y, and so on.

This interpretation is straightforward and it seems consistent with all cards. Thanks :-)
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#### GendoIkari

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##### Re: Sequence point of Knights
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2018, 12:54:31 pm »
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When you play Spy, do all players reveal the top card of their deck at the same time, or do they reveal it one at a time?  The official FAQ for Spy does not specify whether its referring to the revealing, or just the discard/keep portion being done in turn order.  This matters for Chariot Race, because if I can see my top card and the top card of the player to my left, I'll make a different decision than if I can only see my card, then the next player's card after I finish dealing with mine.

Currently, Dominion Online reveals cards in turn order, but I'm assuming in most IRL games, players just all flip over their top card.
When necessary, resolve one player at a time for Spy. Yes in practice it's not necessary, and faster to just all reveal your cards when you can, and for that matter for the Spy player to make the easiest decisions first.
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